96_Lasioglossum species_pilosum group pt 1_Joel Gardner and Jason Gibbs_Sept 13 2023

September 13, 2023, 5:02PM

1h 7m 36s

Joel Gardner 0:07
All right.
Where do we wanna start?

Matt Carlson (Guest) joined the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 0:15
So Joel, you said possibly you wanted to just do a quick check in with the group about where comprehension landed last week.

Joel Gardner 0:16
You.

Hesler, Louis - REE-ARS joined the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 0:25
I'm sure we have a lot of the same people, so if you guys have stuff to put in the chat or you wanna raise your hands if you don't have access to chat, maybe this is an opportunity to do so real quick.

Joel Gardner 0:34
Yeah, alright. Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 0:34
If not, move into, move into the group you mentioned.

Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest) joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 0:38
Yeah.
So umm yeah, I guess we can start with just like a quick review of subgenera that we did last week and just kind of like, umm ask how everyone is feeling on the subgenera and if there's any like burning questions about subgenus ID that we can address before we get into some species.

Gerjets, Nicole (She/Her/Hers) (DNR) joined the meeting

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duttonp51 joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 1:02
So if you if you wanna, if you want to know anything else about subgenera, then put a question in the chat or raise your hand or something.

Maffei, Clare J 1:29
Nothing there so far.

Joel Gardner 1:30
Alright, we're all feeling good about the subject around then.

sbushmann2 joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 1:35
That's great if so.
All right.
So I guess we're gonna start with some species.
And Sam Drogi kind of suggested that we start with the pilosum leucoma espruino, some species group.

Andrew Aldercotte joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 2:11
Uh, they're they're pretty common, and they're pretty widely distributed.

Fortuin, Christine joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 2:16
They're gonna encounter them a lot, and some of them are kind of tricky.

Aviva Liebert joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 2:22
So we can maybe starch with a with a.
Uh, let's see.
Should I say what we have species we have, or should we just have a mystery view and run it through the key?

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Joel Gardner 2:39
Any opinions?

Maffei, Clare J 2:41
I think it is helpful to.
To give us a of a clue of yeah.
What?
You're what?
You're what you got up on deck and then people can take notes accordingly.

Joel Gardner 2:54
Alright, so I think we're going to start with a provisional some as I think that runs the easiest species to recognize.
And it's also super umm, super common.
Super widely distributed.
It's like across the entire United States and Canada.
So yeah, start with that one and just kind of run it through the key couplet by complete.
Or should we just start at this species group level and this type out the differences?

Maffei, Clare J 3:35
Why don't we run down?
Of just says, I would say tell us so we can relate the morphological characters more easily.

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Maffei, Clare J 3:44
So we want to talk about maybe like what makes that group and then trickle from there.
Ohh justice from the first one through the whole key.

Joel Gardner 3:53
Alright.

Droege, Sam 3:53
Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

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Vickruck, Jess (AAFC/AAC) (she - her / elle) 3:54
But.

Droege, Sam 3:55
If you start at the beginning, you can get familiar with the key and then once we get to that group then you can bounce from the key back to just talking about and talking through the identification characters, some of which are not gonna be in the key, are gonna be like habitat and geographic range and things.

Botsch, Jamieson (CTR) - REE-ARS, SD joined the meeting

Jason Gibbs 4:14
Joe Johnson was like he's frozen.

Joel Gardner 4:15
Alright.

Vickruck, Jess (AAFC/AAC) (she - her / elle) 4:15
Sorry.

Maffei, Clare J 4:15
We also. Yeah.
Yeah, that's why I noticed too.

Jason Gibbs 4:19
So I should.

Joel Gardner 4:21
Wait, who's an?
I frozen.

Jason Gibbs 4:24
Yeah, your screen is frozen.
It's just your face which is handsome but not be.

Joel Gardner 4:32
Uh.
OK, I'll try turning my camera off and back on.
Is is that better and I'm moving?

Jason Gibbs 4:45
Now it's black for me.

Maffei, Clare J 4:48
Now it's black, yeah.

Jason Gibbs 4:48
What I'm I'm gonna try to share my screen.

Vickruck, Jess (AAFC/AAC) (she - her / elle) 4:49
As plaque here.

Jason Gibbs 4:51
Can people see that?

Maffei, Clare J 4:53
Yeah, we have Jason's.

Vickruck, Jess (AAFC/AAC) (she - her / elle) 4:53
Yep.

Jason Gibbs 4:54
OK.
So we'll we'll start here. Umm.
So one of the things that this kind of group is kind of one of the defining characters that this group is, it's gotta an unusually long face for a dialect.
Thus, umm, there are some other species groups that have long faces as well, but this is definitely the one that you'd expect to find in the Northeast with a long face in the Southwest SE, you'll get some different things.
Umm yeah, but this is the common sort of eastern, Midwestern long face group. Umm.
And so if you measure it, it's probably a little bit more like the the ratio of the length to the width is a little bit more than one.
If you run it through the key, one of the things that you'll come to pretty early is the the density of punctures on the scutum and a characteristic of this group is that the punctures are very dense.
I'm just a second.

Joel Gardner 5:59
Accept and crew know some.

Jason Gibbs 6:05
Umm, so that the the thing that I have on the front here is actually last year lost.
Some sexy penny.
Can I turn it over to you for a second?
I just have it a call that I need to check my wife.

Joel Gardner 6:18
All right.
Uh, Jerry?
Yeah.
The the one that he has on the screen right now is section of Henny which if you look in the in the revision of the Canadian dialect, just there's a whole bunch of eastern records of section of Penny.
And like if you go through the key, it'll say like the hair is more white and and suction of penny and we're kind of lean or at least I'm kind of leaning towards that all of those eastern section honey are actually just do Pocahontas and the true section of penny is only in the Rocky Mountains.

David Cappaert (Guest) joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 7:02
So the type is from Florissant, Co and I've found a couple more specimens from Colorado that look like the type, but.
None from none from outside the mountains.
So suction a penny.
The the type specimen has a little bit longer face than leucocoprinus, so we can maybe do like a direct comparison of those later on is also images in the 2022 Canada Key that compare them side by side.
Umm, but uh.
True know.
Some also has a very a very long face, longer than average.
Even in this group.
Uh.
Uh.
I wonder if I should uh.
Try sharing my screen.

Jason Gibbs 8:06
Yeah, I can give you if you have something else on deck, I can let you share.
Uh, how do I stop sharing or?

Maffei, Clare J 8:12
And also I'm wondering so I see that there's a hand up while we're in this transition.
Did you wanna ask your question, Jay plant.
You are able to unmute.

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Jason Gibbs 8:37
Uh, ohk.

Joel Gardner 8:38
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 8:38
OK, I should have not stopped sharing.
I'm gonna come back.
OK, Sis, I think so.
Someone asked in the chat.
Umm about how to measure length and this is an interesting question.
So in some of the the papers that I did, I measured what is called, you know, head length and head width.
And for that purpose, you're basically in this image.
You're looking from the apical most point of the I don't know.
Can you see my mouse?
I don't know if you can see my mouse or not.

Joel Gardner 9:12
I can see it.

Jason Gibbs 9:14
OK.
Yeah.
So if you see those crosshairs from the apical part of the clypeus to the top of the vertex up here, that's the length of the head.

Vickruck, Jess (AAFC/AAC) (she - her / elle) 9:15
Yep.

Jason Gibbs 9:24
Uh, and then the head width, where we're measuring it is the widest part across the eyes.
So.
So from the compound eyes from here, all the way across over to here.
That's head width and some of Joel's more recent papers.
You'll see something called face length where he measures from the apex of the clypeus to the anterior.
The kind of the ventral part of the mid asellus and the reason for that switch is because that's an easier, more consistent measurement to take.
Wait, where? The head?
Kind of rounds towards the the top of the head.
Sometimes it's very hard to get the vertex in a spin a focal plane.
That's the same as the end of the clypeus, and so it's kind of fuzzy.
Or if you try to get that in focus and that just gets out of focus.
So it's hard to precisely measure that all the time, and that's why Joel went to what he called what we call facial length or face length, which is from the Minneapolis to the end of the clients.

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Jason Gibbs 10:26
Umm.
So yeah, so if you measure this, I mean I probably could measure this.
And you know this length here.
Versus that like there, that's the.
Those are what we're comparing essentially.
I.
Don't know if someone else had another question? Umm.
There's there's a certain amount of salt that comes into this group and a big feature is this bit here of the clypeus like the shape of the clypeus here is really an important character for distinguishing tylosin that we could call this things like that.

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Jason Gibbs 11:13
So maybe if we have a another head on deck or something, we can we can share that.
I'm gonna stop sharing so Joel can take over the fields.

Droege, Sam 11:23
Just to just a quick question, Jason, you said you had sustained a penny up on the screen.

Joel Gardner 11:23
Alright.

Jason Gibbs 11:24
That's yeah.

Droege, Sam 11:31
It's a little bit hard to see the colors, but would you guys agree that the the true sicina penny is on the blue end of the spectrum like Pelosi like pruinose sum?

Jason Gibbs 11:31
Yep.

Droege, Sam 11:43
Or not.

Jason Gibbs 11:43
Ah, I don't know.

Joel Gardner 11:45
The type is more pilosum colored.

Jason Gibbs 11:49
Yeah, I I wouldn't say that necessarily.

Droege, Sam 11:49
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 11:51
And like some of that, like the hairs on the metasoma or or kind of on the wider kind of side, but I've seen a lot of variation in what I would call tylosin that character.

Droege, Sam 12:04
OK, it it doesn't have as we're looking here, then the squared off clip is does not.

Jason Gibbs 12:11
Yes, it's it's.
I would say it's more squared off than lukullus, but let's square it doesn't have this the the the the exact pilosum shape.
Umm, so a little a little background like whenever I was first started working on this for my PhD and your barcoding specimens, all the most of the steps depend.
I had were from Manitoba, which that happens to be where I am now.
And it we now sort of think that early on it seemed like there was a sort of distinction between the eastern and look at commas and the, the Manitoba and kind of Western uh sequences that supported the sort of distinction.

Joel Gardner 12:55
Speak.

Jason Gibbs 12:55
But actually it seems like as you added more of that kind of distinction got lost.

Droege, Sam 12:56
And.

Jason Gibbs 13:00
And so we think a lot of a lot of what I was barcoding not all that was actually we could call this from the Manitoba.
So that was kind of got some, does feel like super sex with any is valid, but I wouldn't feel confident in anything that's not quite far West, so.

Droege, Sam 13:19
Got it.
Nice.
Nice to hear.

Jason Gibbs 13:23
I mean, I could show you the barcode tree and show the mess that is later if you want.
OK, I'm gonna go back to shopping sharing.

Joel Gardner 13:33
Alright, so I'm going to try putting a pruno SIM on deck and hopefully maybe if I share my screen then.
Then I won't be frozen.
Alright, can can everyone see?
Uh.
The microscope screen.

Droege, Sam 14:04
Nope, it's black for me.

Jason Gibbs 14:05
I don't.

Joel Gardner 14:08
Uh, that's ohh man.
That's unfortunate.
I.

Maffei, Clare J 14:18
We want to try a good old fashioned log out log back in.

Joel Gardner 14:22
I'm going to try unplugging my camera, unplugging it back in.

Droege, Sam 14:26
And I'll I'll I can get a a prune know some too so.

Carter, KC left the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 14:32
Let's do that to keep moving.

Jason Gibbs 14:40
And then what?
I'm gonna try to share.
It's not the best.
Yes, in terms of of focus, this is a.
This is actually a a pilosum.
I don't have a lot of time to set this up, but this has got this kind of.
It's got a squared off clypeus that Sam was kind of mentioning.
This is not perfect.
View it's not perfectly lined up.
Umm, but if it looks like a very sharp angled squares uh to as it kind of moves back up towards the maller kind of area, that's kind of classic pilosum.
Umm, someone has a you kind of yellowish hairs which is like typical of like the typical tylosin.
Uh, again, you sort of see this long face and then send you something on deck.

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Jason Gibbs 15:33
I can stop sharing but.

Droege, Sam 15:35
Getting I'm getting closer to.
I'm gonna put a pruinosa so.

Jason Gibbs 15:37
OK.
Yeah, I I gotta put this up.
Wrap rapidly? Umm.
That's a little bit more in focus.
Umm.
And so, yeah, you're kind of looking at this angle in the in the sort of the classic leucoma it's it's more trapezoidal.
So they kind of are more distinctly sort of angle towards each other towards the end.
It also we can call a sense of these smaller on average umm, so kind of the difference between like a 5 millimeter bee and a 6 millimeter bead and the type of saxophone for comparisons is about 5 1/2 to 6 millimeters.

Joel Gardner joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 16:19
OK, I have a pruinose some up.
Should I go ahead and share?

Jason Gibbs 16:23
Yeah, I don't know if you can overwrite me.

Joel Gardner 16:24
Yep.

Droege, Sam 16:25
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 16:25
Automatically, otherwise I'll stop.

Droege, Sam 16:27
Umm, I was uh.
Umm.
Umm the screen?
Joel, did you hit screen when you hit chair?
You have to do 2 things.
You have to click share and then you have to click on the thing that says screen.
So could that be the issue?

Maffei, Clare J 16:49
I believe he's.

Joel Gardner 16:49
Uh.
I did the same thing I did last week when I shared my screen and that worked.

Droege, Sam 16:57
OK. Yeah.

Joel Gardner 16:59
So something's funny with today, but I I just logged out and back in so it you can try again.
Maybe, but yeah, if you've got one, we can just roll that.

Droege, Sam 17:11
Yeah.
Can people see it?
See what I've got on screen now or not?
Or did I not do it right?

Maffei, Clare J 17:15
You thought it.

Vickruck, Jess (AAFC/AAC) (she - her / elle) 17:16
Yep, you're good.

Droege, Sam 17:17
OK, So what do you want me to focus on here?

Joel Gardner 17:23
Let's see.
Well, we could try just taking it through couplet by couplet in the key.

Droege, Sam 17:27
OK.

Joel Gardner 17:28
Umm so I I've got the 2022 uh key to Canadian species up right now.
Umm, so a couple at one is separating the the pawn collecting species from the parasitic ones.
So that's a pretty easy couplet.
Probably nobody would have any trouble with that.
You just look at the scope and that that is also some head characters.
But yeah, if it has, if it has like a lot of long, curled through most steady on the hind femur.
Like this one?

Droege, Sam 18:12
Mines blocked blocking the femur.

Joel Gardner 18:12
Uh, that's that's the yeah.

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Joel Gardner 18:21
But we probably don't need to spend a ton of time on this one because it's a pretty easy, complete and the parasites are pretty rare anyway.

Droege, Sam 18:28
And get.
I mean, you might, I think it's useful, though, to give the general characters of a parasitic species because they're uncommon and they often have a vibe.
You know, in terms of like the head shape and mandibles and.

Joel Gardner 18:50
Yeah, yeah, sure.

Droege, Sam 18:53
Even though we don't have one on deck, we can put one, but I mean I think that's a it's a piece of clay in there, but.
So you wanna do that?
I think that's useful for folks.

Joel Gardner 19:06
Chair, we could show off of one of the parasitic ones.
Who?
Some people might not have even seen one because they're kind of rare.
That helps to know kind of what they look like when you find 1.
Ohh, that's a parasite.
I know what to do with that and the key.

Jason Gibbs 19:24
And if you find if you find 1, tell somebody, cause some of them are common, but some of them are really rare.
It's worth knowing about.

Droege, Sam 19:36
Doing I'm just sewing.
I'm I still have pruinose.
Do you want me to switch to a parasitic species?

Joel Gardner 19:44
I yeah, sure it is true comparison.
So yeah, the main the main character for the scope, eyes on the hind femur, which you can't really see on this because the legs are scrunched up.
But the tibia also has more. Uh.
So emotional seedy on the pollen collecting species.
So it's not as obvious, but there are more.
It's more hairy on the hind tibia.

Droege, Sam 20:15
We're gonna pull a platter, parium, which is our, and I think in the east.
Umm yeah, most common species I don't know about Midwest or West though, but it's probably 5 plus more times as common.
Is anything else and I'll show the underside here first, get it in focus.
OK, I've got the head.
What are you talk, head.
Head stuff right now, and then we'll go through some of the other things in terms of a a parasite.
We're just talking females at the moment, which is mostly what you got.

Joel Gardner 21:07
Alright, so that's all.

Jason Gibbs 21:07
Like.

Joel Gardner 21:10
Sorry.
Yeah.
Is there alright?

Jason Gibbs 21:12
You can go ahead girl.

Joel Gardner 21:14
There's a couple of different.
Head features on the parasites that are pretty distinctive.
Umm, one the they tend to have big mandibles, so even on the mandibles are closed.
You can see that the tips are sort of overlapping and they're kind of like in the exact shape and they they definitely like pass the the midline of the Claudius when they're closed.
And they have these big mandibles, and then they also have big muscles.
So they can they can bite with these mandibles.
So the head tends to be bigger.
So if you look at the face like straight on, it'll be really broad with a really wide Claudius.

Droege, Sam 22:01
Pink.

Joel Gardner 22:02
I'm really short and wide.

Droege, Sam 22:05
Thank you.
Things.
Yeah, everything I see.
Little bit better.
Let's see.

Maffei, Clare J 22:21
Andrew asks if these are social parasites.

Joel Gardner 22:24
Uh, yes, these are social parasites.

Jason Gibbs 22:29
That's the.
That's, that's presumption, but I mean only one species has ever been examined in anything close to detail.

Droege, Sam 22:36
Cool.
Yeah. Easy.

Jason Gibbs 22:37
And there are two independent origins in North America.
So we don't really don't know, but since they.

Joel Gardner 22:44
That's that's great.
That's an important caveat.

Droege, Sam 22:48
Yes.

Maffei, Clare J 22:49
Damn, I'm going to mute you.

Droege, Sam 22:50
I don't like that, OK.

Maffei, Clare J 23:01
And Jason is your show.

Jason Gibbs 23:02
Is it OK?
Yeah.
Don't know.
Yeah.
So I mean usually if you get like a a dialect, this that has an unusually large head, big mandibles stuff, does you good chance that they have a parasite.

Joel Gardner 23:06
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 23:14
Umm 1, the males look fairly standard, but one feature that connects them to the females is that both sexes of the parasites have this kind of pro nodal Carina.
So if you're kind of look on the pronotum kind of standing from the pronotal kind of angles dorsally down the side of the face.
Umm, this kind of a sharp edge.
Where is it?
All other dialects this is this kind of this kind of like saddle shaped kind of smooth, the rounded things.
So if you're trying to identify dialogues as males, which is a challenge, if you ever see one with a criminal like that, there's a good chance that's a mail about these parasites.
Uh, there are a couple of the parasites that don't have that.

Joel Gardner 23:57
Yeah, well.

Jason Gibbs 23:59
Yeah, you consider you can sort of see kind of the orange kind of lines that are kind of running along that corona.
I think in that garbage, yeah, just above that just above that second Orange line is actually where the corona is it dark change in white.

Joel Gardner 24:09
Yeah, that's a really good.

Jason Gibbs 24:20
And you know another dialect is it would become like a a smooth hollow that kind of runs kind of left to right, kind of transversely across that would interrupt that.

Joel Gardner 24:25
The.
And then from.
I was going to say from that view you can also see the side of the head and you can see how broad the Gina is.
That's another notch 100%, but pretty good way to recognize the parasitic species.
They tend to have really, really broad Gina.

Droege, Sam 24:53
For simplex and a couple other species which sneak in with very tricky umm to spot characteristics, there's your crane again too.

Jason Gibbs 25:05
Yeah.
And then the the ones that I ones like simplex that they also kind of look a little bit more unusual like the heads kind of like kind of too wide like it's kind of like stretched out latterly almost like a kind of like a a rugby mall or something.
Umm.
And so those are little bit weird, but they don't.
None of these have like well developed scope and if you look really closely, you notice things like the pygidial air like the pseudo capital area and the and the basic tibial plate.
Would it be might be a little reduced, so they've lost a lot of these sort of nest buildings.
Uh Paul.
Infecting structures some.

Joel Gardner 25:45
Yeah, yeah, all these head characters are kind of like they usually work, but there's exceptions.
If in doubt, look at the scope of.
That'll always separate the parasitic females, and maybe you can try zooming in on behind femur.

Jason Gibbs 25:56
It's.

Joel Gardner 25:59
Here you can see what a bee without scope of looks like.

Droege, Sam 26:08
I'll try and spin it, but I'll also point out a weird one, which is.
Lazy Blossom header anathem so that has some of these characters and it's scopa is greatly reduced and it's just, you know is like are you trying to be a parasite.

Jason Gibbs 26:17
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 26:30
It just is a little interesting that it has sort of intermediate characteristics and you can see even in this one there is some some little residual.
Umm, fluffiness down here like and that's exactly what header Enanthem looks like.
It's got this really reduced thing.
It's a pretty distinct bee, but it's like, umm, you know, you look a little parasitic.
I don't think it is, but just one that can sneak in there.
I don't know what it's pronotal collar looks like though.

Jason Gibbs 27:04
I think it's normal.

Joel Gardner 27:05
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 27:05
Yeah, there there is a tendency in some of these like social dialect is that you get pass and you get this sort of allometric size variation where the Queens have kind of bigger kind of square hits.

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Jason Gibbs 27:20
Umm.
And you know, the parasites are kind of extreme forms of that.

Joel Gardner 27:27
So Sam, is this heterogenesis you have up right now or is that still part of power? Yes.

Jason Gibbs 27:37
This projects.

Droege, Sam 27:38
I keep.
I keep forgetting that it's changed its name.
Played Apiarius now, but it's a thank you guys for changing everything every 5 minutes.
But no, that's planted period is not hearing Anthem, but it does have a little bit of, umm, most hairs.
Dinner down towards the end.

Joel Gardner 27:58
OK.
Yeah.
Yeah, but you can you can see like on most of the theme or there's just like this row of sparse simple CD.
That's what the the without scope looks like, and I they're also is a.

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Joel Gardner 28:15
There's a western.
There's two Western species, actually.
There's semi brunneum and kuenzi and those also kind of like heterogenesis.
They look kind of like pseudo parasitic because they have really big heads and they also have that sharp frontal Carina.

Droege, Sam 28:35
Umm.

Joel Gardner 28:36
Big heads and big Man Devils in the Sharknado parena they looked just like parasites, but they have well developed scopa.
So that's how you can tell they're not well.
Presumably they're not parasites, they've never been studied.

Droege, Sam 28:49
What about the labor process?

Jason Gibbs 28:54
As far as I know, that's normal.
So the that's another character.

Joel Gardner 28:56
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 28:57
So the labeled process of these parasites is in a standard dialect that there's kind of like a basal kind of kind of rectangle.
And then there's this kind of uh projection that comes out that has a kind of a dorsal keel that you have from the side.
But in the parasites, that projection is just kind of flattened out.
So you get like this, just this big kind of.
It's vaguely trapezoidal kind of Labor.

Droege, Sam 29:26
Yeah, the problem is, unless you, unless you open the mandibles, you you never see that.

Jason Gibbs 29:26
You.
There's only, yeah.
It's tricky to see.
And yes.

Joel Gardner 29:38
It's a little bit easier to see in the parasites just because the labrum is bigger in those ones.
So you can sometimes see it even if the mandibles are closed.
Yeah.
So that's complete one.

Droege, Sam 29:57
OK.
What?
What do you guys want me to put on deck cause it takes me a second.

Joel Gardner 30:04
We should go back to the crew, know some and just move on to a couple of two.

Droege, Sam 30:06
OK.
Right.
Continue on then.
You guys can talk while I get things lined up.

Jason Gibbs 30:20
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 30:21
Yeah.
So couple of two.
Uh goes.
It separates out the red tailed species.
So it's yeah, this ones a should be pretty easy.
Just if the the methadone altera are are red or it's really more of an orange color in the red tailed dialect, yes.
Then you go all the way to the end of the queue, all the 99, but most of them.
Uh, especially if you're if you're working with Canadians specimens, most of them are gonna be black or they're gonna be metallic green and you're going to move on to three.
Yep, here's the true notice.
Them again.

Droege, Sam 31:07
I'm taking off the label so that it doesn't burn out the specimen.

Joel Gardner 31:11
All right.
And you can see the metasoma there is metallic green, not red.
So then we can move couplet 3.

Droege, Sam 31:28
Hearing on.

Jason Gibbs 31:32
If people see that, I mean from from my screen it looks it's hard to tell a little bit because it's that the apical margins are kind of translucent to yellow.

Joel Gardner 31:33
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 31:46
But you're kind of looking at the main part of the.

Joel Gardner 31:51
Ohh yeah, that's an important point.

Jason Gibbs 31:51
What time is this?
This, but sometimes people call the disk so like umm each segment there is at the base is kind of a gradual area and then there's a kind of a semi impressed kind of marginal zone and the marginal zone can sometimes be a slightly different color, little bit more translucent in the yellow than some of the rest of the terradon.
Umm, so you kind of looking at me.
The main section to determine whether or not it's these are also very hairy, so it's a little bit might be hard to give the color range.

Droege, Sam 32:23
And dirty.

Jason Gibbs 32:24
Yeah, but it would be, you know, we vaguely kind of the same color as the the thorax that this isn't.

Joel Gardner 32:33
Yeah.
And yeah, and you're looking at collar of the metalzone.
I don't pay attention to those kind of translucent rims.

Droege, Sam 32:46
Yeah, you're looking at the main body, and often you have to pivot it a little bit because you can see that depending on the angle, it's gonna look slightly different and it can turn all dark and then at a slightly different angle, particularly on some of the darker species, there will be a metallic reflection, but you have to.

Chris Kreussling (Flatbush Gardener, he/they) (Guest) left the meeting

Droege, Sam 33:07
You might have to look.

Jason Gibbs 33:09
Can I share just for a second?

Droege, Sam 33:11
Oh yeah.
Yeah, please.

Jason Gibbs 33:13
I don't know if I.
I don't know if I can overtake you or not.

Droege, Sam 33:16
Yeah, you should be able to just share and they'll drop me.
Think.

Jason Gibbs 33:24
Do books like you're not seeing what I want to do something that's gonna come?

Maffei, Clare J 33:24
Yeah, we're seeing it.

Joel Gardner 33:25
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 33:34
Yes, it this is what this is back to some tylosin group thing with tacomas or something.
But this is, you know, if you can see that this has got kind of Goldy green reflection that I know how well that's coming across.

Joel Gardner 33:51
I can see it very clearly.

Jason Gibbs 33:51
That. That's all.

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Jason Gibbs 33:52
Yeah, as opposed to this as opposed to just a brown black.

Maffei, Clare J 33:53
Yeah, I'm seeing it.

Jason Gibbs 33:56
So that's that kind of metallic color on the pencil.
It just happened to have that up for others.

Droege, Sam 34:06
Yeah.
The group as a whole, I would say has a a dull metallic in most species rather than something like osmia, which tends to be bright and shiny, or certainly not that the algae chlorella algae chlorella, bright green things.

Joel Gardner 34:07
Agreement.
Yeah, you have to be a little bit careful because occasionally if you have like a really dirty bee, they can get like kind of like this oily Sheen on the metasoma that will make it look metallic.

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Joel Gardner 34:38
Uh.
When it's not so.
If you have a dirty specimen and you're in doubt whether it's metallic or not, you can.
Uh, oftentimes you can take a pin and you can gently scrape the entitlement on the metasoma, and if it's just boil that's making it look much halic it'll come off and you can see black underneath.
So yeah, pro tip.

Maffei, Clare J 35:11
We love those.
Thank you.

Joel Gardner 35:13
Thank you.
So yeah.
Then the couple of three goes to the tag yellow, which separates out those gem item groups.
Species with the and larged.
Punctate tayuya.

Jason Gibbs 35:32
I'm just going to share because I have an image on this is tabulare, so this is from Joel's work.

Droege, Sam 35:36
That.

Jason Gibbs 35:40
So this kind of extended really punctuates tegular.
If you get one like that, then you just kind of go to Joel's 2023 paper and work it out from there.

Droege, Sam 35:55
I'm going to flip to mine now and see if we can do this and I have a regular the A better pruinose him and it's more.
You can see what a what most of the species have.

Jason Gibbs 36:11
Yeah, it's certainly kind of more just like it Oval smooth our punctures there, but they're kind of indistinct.
You know, they tend to recognize them.

Joel Gardner 36:21
Yeah.
And they they tend to be concentrated like on the anterior margin to where those we'll see DVR.
So it's it's not really obviously policy change.

Droege, Sam 36:37
Do you consider Marinum part of the regular group or not?

Jason Gibbs 36:42
No, it's.

Joel Gardner 36:43
No, the the the molecular evidence is pretty clear that it's actually more related to proof on Totem.

Droege, Sam 36:50
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 36:52
Yeah.
So it's it's really subtle, but the problem Tatum group tends to have US light.
There's a couple of groups that also are independently have evolving that sort of tree.
I don't know.
A couple was coming next, but yeah, I think you're almost at the the scutum.
Just being shown here.

Joel Gardner 37:09
Yes, the next one is copper four.

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Joel Gardner 37:12
That's a skiddo punctuation dense latter add of parasitol lines or sparse.
So here you're looking at the schema, and specifically you're looking for those.
There'll be two.
I'm kind of impressed.
Grooves I-1 on each side of the scutum.
And it will probably be a little bit easier if you kind of just tilt the specimen a little bit to the sides of the light shining on it.
But basically, you're looking at like the lateral edges of the student, and you're looking at how dense there.
And this couplet will pull out a set of species where basically the entire sputum is sparsely pump change.

Jason Gibbs 38:06
I'm just gonna share this again because I think it might be.

Droege, Sam 38:09
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 38:10
So this is the perhaps it'll line here.
And then punctures are relatively dense lateral and more sparse in.
That makes sense to everybody.

Droege, Sam 38:27
You know, it does until you're looking at a sparse one and you're wondering, is that really sparse or is that not?
But there's a lot of them are pretty clear.

Jason Gibbs 38:40
Yeah, sounds.

Maffei, Clare J 38:41
Yep.
But for this one, we're saying for sure that to the to lateral dense but middle not dense.

Jason Gibbs 38:44
There is at least.
So yeah, you might get a few that are close together, but it's if you're seeing these, you know consistent, widely spaced kind of functions in the middle of that's sparse there is there, there is a few species that get kind of like that Sam was talking about the get on the border.
Umm, some of the ones that really wide like the actual?
Umm Nova Scotia.
Hey, then you get a couple of some things like dress bachi, which are.
I think in at least that early versions of the key went to dense, but if you look at them they're a little bit sparse.

Joel Gardner 39:26
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 39:30
So.

Droege, Sam 39:30
Jason, just show people quickly.
The two appear upside lines again just you know hover hover down them just.

Jason Gibbs 39:34
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, they're kind of been near the tegula.
So if you have the the mid line down the middle, then you kind of go about a 2/3 from the midline to the tequila.
That's where you're looking or less so it's that dark line running right there where my house is.
What's that's one of the perhaps that lines, other ones on the other side and I like this are usually pretty distinct.
Does it's really easy to find, but basically you just kind of looking at Jason to the technology in that zone.
It's 21.

Droege, Sam 40:14
Jason and Joel, this is a probably a good point because we're gonna get into surface sculpture and pitting to talk about lights.

Jason Gibbs 40:23
Yeah.
So one of the things I was going to show, which I had up, you know, the lighting is not perfect for for it.
Umm, but what you want is a really diffuse light, so one of the things that I'm doing through this thing under my mouth was scope is I just have like this diffusion paper.
So I'm just kind of putting that between my specimen and the lights.
Great.
So that helps kind of spread the light out and then you it avoids these sort of harsh glares.
So if you look at the head, it is harsh glare and this picture, you can't see what's going on with the microculture and that's what you tend to get if you're using like kind of a gooseneck whites, uh, it just he is still hot hot spots.

Joel Gardner 40:58
Get a second.

Jason Gibbs 41:06
That's really hard to to view for some of the subtle microscope or characters for dialing.
This is really hard.
When I was doing my PhD, I actually just had like a like a kind of cheap $20, you know, bendable desk lamp with like one of those kind of coiled.
Florescent kind of bloods.

Droege, Sam 41:27
Florescent tubes.

Jason Gibbs 41:28
Yeah, that's what I used.

Droege, Sam 41:29
A big, very, very big.

Jason Gibbs 41:29
I I think an LED bulb.
Yeah, an LED bulb works fine for me.
I'm right handed, so like what I had was the light kind of coming up over my left arm and sort of shining in the same direction I was facing.
And so I would just got used to like I had the pin in my insect in my right hand.
I just got used to sliding my left hand under the the light and then using it that way, but it's kind of bulky, so just like right here, but you can just if you take you know, some kind of diffusion kind of type paper and put it between your your light and the specimen.
It helps and like when I my gooseneck that I have in my microscope in my office, I've kind of the guy burned up some like cardboard to extend on either side out and then I have kind of a loop with this curved around.
So if you put it right next to the light, then you kind of lose some of the benefit.
So you wanna have to kind of spaced far away and that helps a lot with just the lighting.

Joel Gardner 42:28
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 42:31
But actually I haven't really found anything that works better than just like the fluorescent bulb ring lights are also pretty good LED ring light.

Droege, Sam 42:38
I'll point you.
I'll I'll point out that I did after coming up and seeing what Jason was using, I came I I did that in a lot of the little conical lamps that you would want to use are not used to those gigantic fluorescent bulbs.
And if they don't have good air circulation at the base, they burn the bulbs right out.
And it's kind of like tastrophe.
So we drilled out a lot of holes down there.
Additionally, you can often use and go to the art store and get vellum paper to act as that diffusion thing.
That's pretty available.
And then finally in worse comes to worse.
Just take a pair of clean X or kimwipes and rubber band it over the LED.
You know IKEA lamps or whatever, but some different combinations work, but yeah, diffusing that and take a look at Jason's picture there and you'll see that it's pretty clear on the middle of the scutum.
There's it's not bright and shiny.
There's lots of micro sculpturing going on that super tiny tessellation or little tiny alligator skin.
Yeah.
There we go and you need to see that if you're gonna use Jesus's key and jewels.

Jason Gibbs 43:58
It umm that not we have a a a student working in my lab.
Now, who's a really great macro fotography?
So we've actually sort of slightly bumped up the level of images now because he's got better diffusion paper than we had before.
But yeah, it really it's really important.
That is, whenever a couple that says, you know, is it dull or shiny, this is dull, even though there's a lot of light coming off of this, all these kinds of little fine lines running between the punctures.
Is this stopped? No.
OK, what's next?

Joel Gardner 44:43
Let's see.
Where were we?
I we just did couple of four with the punctures on personal lines.
And then it goes to five and you're looking for the Acura narial thing on, sorry I can't see FT1 has any oppressed CD on it.

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Joel Gardner 45:07
I can't really see it on this image right now.

Jason Gibbs 45:10
No, we can't.
So I'm gonna see if I can find one quickly that would have one.

Droege, Sam 45:15
I'll see if my crew know some has.
I mean, it does have a complete air fan, but I don't know if I can see it.

Jason Gibbs 45:28
They're all males have.

Droege, Sam 45:30
You might be able to.
Here we can take a look and then Jason gets it or you got it, Jason.

Jason Gibbs 45:38
So it's it.
Uh, no, not yet.
But I was just gonna sort of talk over it.
So essentially it's there are these hairs that are flat up against the they kind of most basal part of the first tergum and that's kind of the fan and if it's complete the the hairs go all the way across the front, you can sort of start to see them there.

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Jason Gibbs 46:03
Yeah, on that image.
Umm in some some bees, including like the really problematic weird Adam Group, they're they're kind of just on the lateral side too lateral patches.
And then in the middle, there's no hairs and sometimes it gets really like very limited kind of fans.
Umm I I used to call in the Air Canario fan because I was kind of following Mcginley's terminology for the last year blossom industry.
You know the subject as last year blossom, but actually there's there's almost never mites associated with these.
So I just started calling them like fans in T1 hair fan or whatever. Umm.

Droege, Sam 46:47
Well, I tell you, aren't they might associate with the sense of stricter though, right?

Jason Gibbs 46:52
Yes.
So yeah, so I yeah, in the 2020 paper, I think I called him again Arial fans, but I stopped kind of using that term because they're not associated with lights in the same way.
Umm, in in the whenever they don't have a fan at all, it's not just the absence of hairs, they actually have, like erect hairs where the fan would be.
So if you're looking at the like the down, the mid length in that area will be erected hair sticking up if there's no hairs there at all in the in the central area, it might have like small little patches.
Literally.
Now it's count as a fan.
Like an interrupted fan and umm.

Droege, Sam 47:35
And those are important.

Joel Gardner 47:35
Or am I?

Droege, Sam 47:41
The the shape and the density, and sometimes it's hard to describe, are really a key I whenever I'm keying out these species I'm I always look at the fan to see what's going on.

Jason Gibbs 47:54
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 48:03
Take it away.

Joel Gardner 48:03
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 48:09
You wanna show another?
What's the next couple of it's?

Joel Gardner 48:13
Alright, next one is the looking at the Meadow Zelma, whether it's coarsely sculptured with the proportial lateral and posterior surfaces separated by a strong Corina or not, so that that is separating out on like the cressona that alpha penny, that group.
So when you're when you get to this couplet.

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Joel Gardner 49:00
It's a little bit tricky to kind of like imagine in your head if you don't.
If you don't like actually see specimens, umm.
If you actually see a specimen of of cressoni eye or a lapenna, you're one of those species.
It'll be like super obvious cause they're they're really, really harshly sculptured.
Umm, so this is a smooth relatively smooth propose Yum.
If if you look at the.
Kind of the edges.

Droege, Sam 49:41
Uh.

Joel Gardner 49:41
So is this this dorsal surface that is kind of like Crescent Moon shaped that's often called or podium triangle or the OR the metapost notum is another word that is used a lot in our keys and then below that there is the posterior surface and it kind of curves on to the lateral surface.
And sometimes there's a Carina that's separating those two surfaces.
So if you this this this Ridge running up from the bottom up to the dorsal surface.
Uh separating the posterior and the lateral surfaces, so this speed is not have that.
That would go to couple of 11, it's like a.

Droege, Sam 50:30
Well, but.
I would point out that there is one way down here, right guys.

Joel Gardner 50:36
Alright.
Yeah.
There, there, there should be a Carina and income, a short in Carina.

Droege, Sam 50:41
You can't see it, yeah.

Joel Gardner 50:43
That can't really see.
It'll be down at the very bottom and not reaching the top surface.
And then we have a request in the chat to show an Alberta any specimen.

Jason Gibbs 50:56
I actually have have one.

Droege, Sam 50:57
Allah, no, we do.

Jason Gibbs 51:01
In front of me, but I'm not sure I'll have it in the right view that you want to look at.
So this is now we penny.
I was kinda sorry.
Forgive the fiber.
I just grabbed the first one I could find.
Umm that this has you can just see this is kind of a dorsal view that you can't see this kind of oblique crying out here.
That's the kind of the connection to that vertical corona that Joel will talking about.
Even then, this kind of some of the coarser punctures on this you tell them, it's hard to, it's hard to judge, coarse versus fine without multiple specimens.
Umm, so you have it takes some getting used to.
Is there something in particular you wanted to see on the LB penny?

Joel Gardner 51:50
OK, maybe like showing the rear of the proposed Yum.

Jason Gibbs 51:58
What was that good?

Droege, Sam 52:01
The rear of the podium?
Maybe had a pivot the whole specimen around and maybe punch in a little more light if you can.

Joel Gardner 52:03
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 52:09
Yeah, I'll see what I can do is, is a combination of trying to the specimen might not be ideal for.
You're looking down into the podium.
We I grabbed the first one I could find. We.

Droege, Sam 52:27
He also had bright white wings, which is, you know, relatively unusual and helpful, but so does proven know some but different different beasts.

Jason Gibbs 52:44
It's a it's a.

Joel Gardner 52:44
And as you get into the West, there's actually quite a few species that have those bright white wings.
There's, there's not as many in the east, but there's there's lots in the West, so it becomes less useful.

Droege, Sam 52:50
Ah.

Jason Gibbs 52:58
Yeah, I'm not sure.
I tried to get the the light pointed where I needed to be pointed for me to see that some of the tricky day.

Droege, Sam 53:00
Yeah.
Tried jacking up on the software on the explorer, says exposure.

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Jason Gibbs 53:17
Well, I think it's partially just trying to get the light.
Ankle.
Well.

Droege, Sam 53:23
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 53:24
I so every everything that I view on this is kind of upside down and backwards relative because I'm using a single.
Lens.

Joel Gardner 53:38
You can kind of see the Carina there, I can.

Jason Gibbs 53:39
I'm.
Yeah.
So right here, I'll try to get it more focused before I do that, like right here is that Carina coming up for that noses.
Is.
It's really just, you know, you're just looking at this as sharp edge, yeah.

Droege, Sam 53:56
Yeah.
To adjacent, it looks like you are using the same software we use and you can not to do it now, but you can set it up so it's not a mirror image.
In other words, it's the natural scope following for a later date.

Jason Gibbs 54:17
Oh, yeah, yeah, that would be very helpful because I I, I I don't use this very often, but yes, that would be great.

Droege, Sam 54:18
Just FYI.

Joel Gardner 54:21
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 54:26
So yeah, this is the.
Yeah, this is so.
This is the sort of lateral surface of the podium over here and then right where that kind of like left crosshair starts.
Uh, and then kind of moving up here is the is where that corona is.
So what you kind of see from light to dark?
Umm is where that thing happens?

Droege, Sam 54:49
And like in a cressoni, which is sort of a gold version of Alba Penny, but Chris Onii, which I often struggled with like, am I looking at elbow penny early on until I saw a bunch.
It has a it the Corina comes up and then you shapes over.
It's kind of hard.
It makes like a little heart on the back of the.
Corina or at the back of the rear face of the prodigium.

Jason Gibbs 55:20
Yeah.
And it just because of yeah.

Droege, Sam 55:22
We're never, uh, we're never gonna get through all these.
Dialectics tell me interesting things.

Jason Gibbs 55:27
And just because, yeah, just because we're here at, you'll also see that this is like a very brown active in the media is almost segments brown to the close to the metallic, yeah.

Droege, Sam 55:35
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 55:38
I was Speaking of we're never gonna get through.
I was just gonna give us a time check.
We can go a little bit over umm, but as we find our flow, uh, we should be considerate of that.

Jason Gibbs 55:49
Yep.

Droege, Sam 55:51
Well, we're, I think you know our goal for today given that we have like 2 minutes is that we get to where the Pilosum and Susanna penny and and those specimens that were particularly concerned about live and then maybe next time we can get into the details.
Uh, about the separating the the four or five species in there, and maybe there's another to couple to talk about out West.

Jason Gibbs 56:19
Yeah, sounds good.
Let's let's speak to the couplets, Joel, we should be close.

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Joel Gardner 56:26
Alright, so yeah, well then we go to 11.

Droege, Sam 56:26
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 56:34
UH-3 submarginal cells.
Yep, RB has three submarginal cells.
The podium.
Uh, with or without an oblique Corina.
So we kind of covered that already.
So the oblique Carina is just on the upper side of the her podium and it's not necessarily connected to the lower lateral Carina.
Umm so this there's some bees that look that have that, Carina, but they're they're not coarsely sculptured like eltanin crescini.
So they'll go here.
Umm but.
Who knows?
Some will not have any current on the premiums.
OK, so a couple of 13 is where we get to the message you Dum, whether it's sparse or dense throughout.
So that's kind of the the breakpoint where you pull off most of the pilosum group.

Droege, Sam 57:37
I'm gonna switch.
I've got it on deck here with prunes and which is a good example of some ambiguity right?
Where?
What?
Someone might say something is sparse and another person might or you know, meets your dense versus not dense.
And this is the character that is useful for separating this species from the, you know, pilosum and others.
But you know, for example here is pretty dense and then here is pretty not dense.
So walk us through your thinking here.

Joel Gardner 58:14
So in order to go to covet 73, the the punctuation has to be dense everywhere on the scutum.
So it'll be really uniform.
So like if you look at like the lateral sides close to those, perhaps the lines, umm, the middle will be just as dense as that.
So like even like up towards the anterior end, where you can see like they the punctures really it kind of sparse and they can kind of smaller if uh pilosum and Lukas and floridanum, those will all be dense even up there.

Droege, Sam 58:54
So and this species then it would conform to the not dense.

Joel Gardner 59:03
Right.
So this one would go on the 14.

Jason Gibbs 59:05
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 59:10
Jason, did you say something?

Jason Gibbs 59:11
I'll go say there there are a couple of things in the in the West, it's sometimes we'll run through both ways to have done that a certain a certain number of times when we think people might get confused, we'll run it through two ways.

Droege, Sam 59:17
Mm-hmm.
Right.

Jason Gibbs 59:23
But it obviously every time you do that, you increase the number of couples.
So we try not to do it too well.

Droege, Sam 59:27
Yeah.
So I think a good point here and one that never completely sunk in, I don't think to me was that it's the uniformity of densities cause I get like zip right in.
Look, we'll look right in the middle and it's like, oh, look, that's dense and it or and there's dense there and then.
But if I'm looking up here, I'm like, oh, that's not so.
It's good to.
Good to get clarity on the the uniformity I think is an important point here.

Jason Gibbs 59:59
Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:00:03
Alright, so I'm wondering if we should stop here because this might be a good, you know, point at which we can come back to the species groups.

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Droege, Sam 1:00:17
You know, we get into the dense and dense pits versus not dense.
So that separates out these two and then there would be several more couplets though to get to pruinose and per se.

Joel Gardner 1:00:28
Yeah, there's a really knows Bruno's and is the one species in the in the group that does not have those universe uniformly dense fitting on the skew Dum.

Droege, Sam 1:00:29
I think it's a lot of.

Joel Gardner 1:00:42
Umm.
If we had, like a hang on a minute or two more, we could maybe a good idea just to show up.
Hello some head just because.
The pilosum clypeus is so distinctive and it's so important.

Droege, Sam 1:01:00
Do you and didn't you have one up or do you want me to pull another one?

Jason Gibbs 1:01:02
I I had one I could try to find it again, but I lost it.

Droege, Sam 1:01:07
Right.
Why don't we both try?
Because that is a sort of a the most difficult thing, I think for people is the squareness character.

Joel Gardner 1:01:21
Is my camera still frozen or did it get fixed when I relogged?

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Joel Gardner 1:01:26
Because I could try to.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:28
No friend, we've seen a black screen.

Joel Gardner 1:01:31
Wow.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:32
We can do a test, attach run in the future I to like make make us all smooth.

Jason Gibbs 1:01:41
Alright, let's see.

Joel Gardner 1:01:42
Yeah, I don't know what's going on.
It works last week.

Droege, Sam 1:01:46
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:49
I've had several problems with Microsoft today.
It might be something on my end with recording.

Joel Gardner 1:01:54
It's like.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:56
I don't know.

Droege, Sam 1:02:00
Don't blame yourself, Claire.

Maffei, Clare J 1:02:03
Taking it all on.

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Jason Gibbs 1:02:10
OK.

Droege, Sam 1:02:11
Well, while we're trying to get these things on deck, how common is a pilosum?
They're getting to these ambiguous things, a pilosum that has white hairs, not golden hairs, on the back.

Jason Gibbs 1:02:29
I think it's probably more common as you move into the Midwest perhaps, but I've seen some from people send me like sandy things from the East Coast that have that kind of trying to get people see that.

Droege, Sam 1:02:35
Mm-hmm.

Jason Gibbs 1:02:45
OK, it's it's sometimes hard to get it statically.

Vickruck, Jess (AAFC/AAC) (she - her / elle) 1:02:48
Yep.

Maffei, Clare J 1:02:49
Not it.

Jason Gibbs 1:02:50
Umm, but yeah, you're kind of if you kind of imagine from going from kind of the.
Maller space down to this kind of, you know, apical margin in the clypeus if you have this kind of it's moving down kind of at an angle and then it kind of comes straight out that little bit there that's coming straight out is the rectangular bit we're here we're just kind of looking at that kind of goes sorts of corners.
So if it kind of runs parallel just for a little bit work at before his gets the apex, that's kind of that squared off area.
OK.
Whereas I think if you look at like a local commas, it's just kind of it's just consistently angled and then you get to the that kind of side margin.
So it's it's slowly migrating its way because it's the source of plus the scene.
But get back to the middle.

Joel Gardner 1:03:52
And the pilosum clypeus will also be, umm, really flat.
It's kind of hard to describe, but it's it's flatter and and more umm.
More of like uniform.
Uh, uniformly flat.
Then, like the look homus, they'll be slightly curved.
The clypeus lobby.
So the light doesn't hit it quite as uniformly.
They'll be a little bit more, more glare on it.

Jason Gibbs 1:04:28
Like what?
There is a there is like a secondary character, which we're gonna maybe talk about in that there's a little patch on the the first church.

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Jason Gibbs 1:04:37
Umm, which is shinier and pilosum so you know if the head knocked off you can even recognize them.
Umm, but there are larger than the, so if you're if you're in like the northeastern United States, basically all you have to deal with have the dense punctures in the long face is pyrocynical Thomas and.

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Jason Gibbs 1:05:00
Clypeal character works.
Does that little a little patch on T1 which we can talk about next time, which which works pretty well, but also the body size is usually quite distinct?
Uh, so you know, if you're an entire unit tray of newcomers and you had one pilosum in the middle, you could probably find the pilosum without the microscope.
So yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:05:23
You.
I'll pop up umm one that I have just to show one additional 1.

Jason Gibbs 1:05:31
That's very golden yellow, pretty.

Droege, Sam 1:05:38
Yeah.
And we get, you know, early on we just called them all pilosum because we didn't know any better and we're still trying to the differentiate our delineate pilosum versus Luca comas areas.

Joel Gardner 1:05:39
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:05:54
So that's because they often show up in the same place.

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Droege, Sam 1:05:59
And we get also floridanum.
Which we can talk about next time.

Maffei, Clare J 1:06:06
Yeah, I was gonna wrap us up.
Maybe we'll do a refresh on that as we go through the keys again next time, but I think we're in a good a good spot.

Jason Gibbs 1:06:20
Right.
And I think we we, we've got a a system working a little bit better now.

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Jason Gibbs 1:06:25
So hopefully it'll build more smoother next time.

Droege, Sam 1:06:26
Yeah.
It's nice that we can share.
We'll get Joel up to speed here on his camera beforehand.

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Maffei, Clare J 1:06:36
Yeah, I hope it's just this week.
You know, a couple weeks ago it didn't record.
That's why we don't have satina.
I have had email product so might not be till we're gonna work on it.

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Droege, Sam 1:06:49
It's not you, Joel.

Jason Gibbs 1:06:51
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:06:53
Yeah, we don't know who it is.

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Droege, Sam 1:06:57
Alright, so this is good and this is like one of the big struggles when I get the my collection back from the Smithsonian will go into nomada, where we also have a lot of fun in terms of trying to figure out what the heck we're looking at and even more ambiguity.
Umm molecularly as well, at least in the white, CT and vidente groups.

Maffei, Clare J 1:07:26
Alright, thanks everyone.

Droege, Sam 1:07:27
Cool.

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Jason Gibbs 1:07:32
By everyone.

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