98_Triepelous females and males in Rightmyer key_Mike Arduser_Oct 4 2023

October 4, 2023, 5:02PM

1h 14m 55s

Jones, Beryl M. joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 0:07
Umm.
And then we should get back to Lisa Blossom shortly thereafter.
Cool.
Umm, you can reach out.
Everybody should have the right my key.
So I think what we decided is that we kind of blasted through the Discover Life key and and it's pretty parallel males and females.
Molly's approaches to combine both of those, and she uses more technical terms, and it's a really nice key.

Hesler, Louis - REE-ARS joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 0:34
I think we'll go through it and maybe not dwell too long on on certain things, but kind of point out the differences and maybe explain some terminology would be good and people should be prepared to ask questions, particularly about terminology and what her thoughts are.

Beiriger,Robert L joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 0:56
So I will share my screen and we'll go to her key and then we can look up things on the scope if we want to, to see more.
But I think a lot of these we've already seen.
And so I think the concentration is to just work through Molly's key, and if we need to, we can go back and look at specimens that people have questions about.
About how's that sound like?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:20
Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:22
Alright, let me.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:22
So, so well, there were she had three three keys in that revision.

Droege, Sam 1:23
Yeah, go ahead.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:26
You know, one to the southern stuff in the Caribbean and and then one for all of the Western Hemisphere, more or less.
And then one just for the eastern US and that's OK.
That's where we are.
I wasn't sure about that.

Droege, Sam 1:42
Yeah, I mean, we could, I mean you can and you could go to the big one, but it's a nightmare because you're dealing with all kinds of things that you don't need to see.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:48
It is.

Droege, Sam 1:53
And because you have to make exceptions for every single species, it gets these these these relatively simple couplets all of a sudden become more and more complicated to accommodate the larger list of species, which is always a problem with large keys, and particularly the traditional ones.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:05
Yep.

Chris Kreussling (Flatbush Gardener, he/they) (Guest) joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 2:13
You have to go has this and sometimes you know doesn't have this or you start doing if then kinds of things and makes it harder.
So that's where something like discover life can be helpful, because you can still answer simple questions.
You do have to plow through basically a lot of materials, so it is going to take longer, but you know that's why in particular in these complex groups using more than one key and passing through.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:36
Right.

Sarah Miranda Rezende joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 2:47
And if you're converging on the same species identification, your confidence goes up.
And just remember that we all struggle with in between characters and working on you know whether this thing is present or not.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:54
Yeah.

Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest) joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 3:05
So these are never.
It's never like an absolute thing.
You just become more and more experienced and in looking at specimens and understanding and creating your own database of information about what things look like.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:23
And I will say that Mitchell had a key, of course, to tribulus, but separate keys for males and females, as well as pretty exhausted descriptions.
And so, even though that was a long time ago, it's still a valuable secondary reference I think.

Droege, Sam 3:42
Yep.
Yeah.
And we see over and over again that the characters that people choose and a pathway through a key, is often really different from person to person.
And you know, we see this like between Mike and what we put together for discover life, you know, often using very different character sets, particularly when you start getting down to the species versus that species.
And it's really useful to again pair these things up, and particularly once if you're dealing with things you're not used to looking at on a day to day.

Laura McHenry (she/her) (Guest) joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 4:20
So here, and here's a good example.
When I was first using Molly's key, this is the first couple work, so the uh, I'm getting echo now something and Claire, do we have a pop up book?

victor demasi joined the meeting

victor demasi 4:26
First company work so then I'm getting something and player do we have that pop up?

Droege, Sam 4:35
Book there's taking care of it.

victor demasi 4:38
There's taking care of it.

Droege, Sam 4:41
All right, got.
Oh wait.
Good now.
OK, so I think we're back to good.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 4:47
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 4:47
So here it's talking about dorsum of missoma and metasoma.
So basically the this would be the wording of the thorax and the abdomen with pale Gray to white banding and the.
Or pale to bright yellow banding.
And so, you know, my definition of yellow in my mind, and I think probably a lot of people is different from the on the ground looking at tribulus definition, which is distinct, but usually like I've never seen anything that's really blatantly bright yellow.
So perhaps there's one in there.
I don't know.
Mike, do you know any that literally have bright yellow banding?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:30
The.
Not that I would call bright yellow and and you know this is in the workshops I teach this this couplet causes consternation because we all see colors a little differently.
And what's pale yellow and pale Gray or pale white to you or me?

Droege, Sam 5:45
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:50
This isn't maybe a little different.
Somebody else.
So this is this that could be the the the.

Droege, Sam 5:54
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:56
Uh, the extremes are real.
Obvious it's just sometimes there are things that kind of in the middle of that are you might, you know, little trick here.

Droege, Sam 6:03
Right.
So one thing the way to think of it, I think we talked about this in the Discover Life keys, is that the pale Gray to white banding is without color.
OK, there is just no hint of any additional color in there.
And then when you get to this pale to bright yellow, you really should just erase the bright and talk about weekly, weekly, yellow colored ish, and a lot of times you have.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 6:28
The.

Droege, Sam 6:38
It's also partial.
So umm, I wanna say that the T1 and T2 can be.
I may have it reversed, but often are great.
A white and then the remaining segments start becoming having a yellow, dirty yellow hue to it.

Shaun McCoshum joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 7:01
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 7:01
Umm.
And and so it it's it's that I I'm I completely missed the boat when I started out because like well that's not yellow but it has to be really looked at and sometimes also you're lighting is messing with you so if you're using as a lot of people do now some of these LED lights and it is a LED light that has a yellowish U it can mess you up on this one but the the contract so over time you'll probably get it but you know the difficulty is a lot of times in a particular collection from a particular location for a grad student or starting you don't get a lot of tribulus so it pays to look online and it pays and you know you can look up on discover life and you can look up here like ohh which are the yellow ones and which are the umm ones that are not yellow and look at pictures of them and see if you can discriminate them so.
I have you.
I think people just need to spend a little bit of time sinking into that one.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 8:16
Yeah.
The color patterns are the pubescence patterns in two trying deal is a lot of them are very distinctive.
And so once you see them, I mean, they're obviously very different from the others and some of those are fairly common species.
So just takes a little bit like saying a little bit of time just to come in with your eyes yourself with all those different.
Give us some patterns.

Droege, Sam 8:37
Right.
So that the so if we travel down the pale to white species group the you, you can look here that you're this is happens in a lot of keys right.
You just wanna knockout some really sort of atypical different species.
1st and so here we're not going out Negritos rather than trying to key out to it amidst some other kind of stepwise groups.
And so I've actually never seen this particular species.
Have you, Mike?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 9:11
I I've seen it in college.
I never collected it.
I've seen it in collections.
Yeah, and it's pretty obvious that the corona on the top of the head.

Droege, Sam 9:15
Yeah, Symphony.
So again, just to go over the lingo for people.
So the IT says prehospital Corina, so raised line strong.
So I obvious on the Gena, so the cheek on the side and then behind the vertex.
So the back of the head.
So if you look at it from the side, presumably you're gonna see that raised line run along the border of the side of the face or the cheek, and then run up over the top.
And I mean, would you describe it that way?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 9:55
Yeah, that's the key.
But, but almost all the species have at least some some kind of a crying out laterally on the Gina and the then the distinctive thing about this one is it's just that continues, it's continuous up here on behind the head and none of the other ones are so.

Droege, Sam 10:04
Umm.
Yeah.
And then, umm, so MISA skewed.
Umm, so really that's a one of the terminology used for skukum.
So that's the top of the thorax.
Between the wings, the big plate there. Uh.

Searles Mazzacano, Zee joined the meeting

Searles Mazzacano, Zee 10:26
Being played there.

Droege, Sam 10:31
Sorry, you have an echo and gone, so the music skukum lacking.
Pair a pair of medial band of pale CT so the.
Umm.
And with a note.
So it doesn't.
So the basically if you have the center line, there's two lines on either side.
This is common in almost all triples of pale bands of white hair, and those are absent there and, umm.
And then it says anteriorly along that skewed, umm, so near the head and pronotum college.
And there's some some white hair, but not much.
And I would presume that that's a lot sparser than these prone it thick white hairs that make up these bands on other species.
So not a hairy species.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 11:25
Right.
And the other thing about the anterior part of the message scutum is the hairs are not oppressed.
They're erect and almost all the other ones.

Droege, Sam 11:32
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 11:34
Those are the hairs are dense and oppress.
They don't stick up, and that's another unusual thing about this one.

Droege, Sam 11:37
Yeah.
So that's that's why it's sitting here, because it's just really, it's in several ways it's different.
And so, you know, she, like many people, would just wants to not get that out of the way.
So it's the rest are not like that.
They have a they don't have a crina behind the back of the head or behind the vertex.
It's called and they might have some on the Gina as Mike mentioned, and most of them are gonna have these bands of pale, oppressed hairs that, you know, sort of make our ideal of tribulus.
OK.
So moving to the next group, this gets into another one, which I'm sure your students might also struggle with.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 12:24
The.

Droege, Sam 12:25
So why don't you talk about means that be stirring on hers?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 12:28
Yeah, yeah, this is a.
So you have to stir and we're talking the side the the sides of the thorax.
And UM, these are this is not necessarily an obvious feature.
And because they are hairs, they can also be worn away.
And so that can be you need to look very closely and what you're looking for are very pale, very thin, simple, not flu mills in any way.
Simple CD that stick out up from the side of the thorax and sometimes lighting is critical in this case for a long time.
This used to frustrate me because that wasn't sure you know when one OD and blank that's OD stands for oh seller diameter, so they're not really long and maybe the traditional sense, but that's what you're looking for and you need to look.
You really need to look carefully, and sometimes enough of them are worn away.
You may only see nine or ten.
That's enough.

Droege, Sam 13:34
Yeah, it's very sparse and it is also at the, I don't know if she mentions this, but they are at the lower side, really not up at the the dorsal edge of the misapply sternum.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 13:36
Yep.

Droege, Sam 13:50
At least in my opinion, I'm always I'm looking at where the me zippy sternum is about halfway about halfway down and below for that character.
The upper part.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:00
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 14:00
Often it just seemed to be consumed by pits, and often some, you know, oppressed hairs.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:06
Yeah, I'd say medium.
Like you just said, to lower and and the word sparse should be put in that couplet.

Droege, Sam 14:10
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:13
I think because there aren't, they're not.

Droege, Sam 14:14
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:16
They're not dense by any stretch.
They're scattered.
Yeah.
So you might not.

Droege, Sam 14:19
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:21
You might insert that.

Droege, Sam 14:23
Yep.
And then they're also.
Umm.
At least the what we call the mine.
We're gonna go look at them.
These are uncommon species, so I've seen only or it's it's pecorelli in that one.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:36
Doctor alley.
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 14:38
Well, that's the one that is.
So if we jump to four, actually Petrelli, is it in there?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:45
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 14:46
Umm, no.
Or we don't have.
I don't see it here I think of ohh, we know what it it's.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:51
Hmm.

Droege, Sam 14:52
It's in there, but it's in the.
Remember, we split the yellow and the wings, you know?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:54
Yeah, it's in the yellow.
Yeah, but that's a good.

Droege, Sam 14:56
Yeah.
OK and.

Sarah Miranda Rezende left the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:59
That's one, though that is in my from my eyes is barely yellow, and so anyway, we'll get to that.

Droege, Sam 15:05
Yeah.
Yeah.
So in this group of yellow are non yellow, clearly non yellow ones, at least clearly ish non yellow ones.
This group here are all uncommon a species so that I've seen, you know, maybe a a couple donates.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:22
The.

Droege, Sam 15:28
I've never seen Lugosi's or Britanii, and I don't think obliterates either.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:31
I have.
Well, uh.

Droege, Sam 15:35
So do you have any insights about these?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Blood rate is I saw a long series from the Twin Cities recently and like 30 of them and and otherwise I've not seen very many in the Midwest and donate us.
It's here.
It's uncommon, but probably seen it dozens of them in the greater Midwest.
But those other two doses in Britain have never seen them.
I don't know.

Droege, Sam 16:00
Yeah.
So I'm not sure how much we wanna spend on like going into the details here in terms of differentiating these particular species versus going through.
But I think this one here when we talk about and tegument because it's it's different umm where because a lot of these are like ohh well the clipeus is a little longer or a little shorter and that's another one of these tricky for people to determine sometimes measurements.
But here this this species where dosis with.
Yeah, with the integument is going to be bumpy.
They call it tuberculate, so little spikes.
Now, Mike, have you seen that species?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 16:48
I have not.

Droege, Sam 16:49
I can't.
Yeah.
So that's the thing to look for.
Also, this is pretty small for tribulus.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 16:56
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 16:58
And yeah, so there are a parasite.
So they have to be less than their host, and their host is not super super, super abundant.
In some case most cases, so a lot of these tribalists just don't show up very often in any collection.
But you know you wanna know what it is.
And oops, I've got a phone call coming in.
OK, so.
Yeah.
So Donata sort of is comes out at the end of that.
Yeah, ring and then we can go on to I think 3.
Let's see.
What are we doing here?
Umm ohh this is lacking.
See these now lack.
So those had the erectors, these next little group were still in the yellow.
Bannon, yellow hair ones.
So this next group are ones that do not have a retailers on on the sides of the plura or misapply sternum.
And so we start with.
This obliterates which Mike mentioned there.
That's another one that I just don't see is that is it a blitter artist?
Because it has two sub marginals, like many or doesn't doesn't mention that.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:18
Yeah, I think so.
I think so, but maybe it's one of those that also has, you know, sometimes two, sometimes three, maybe often enough.

Droege, Sam 18:20
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:28
I'm trying.
I'm trying to think of the ones I saw from Minnesota.

Droege, Sam 18:31
Yeah, it's not mentioned.
It's oddly, it's not mentioning that, so maybe not obliterate.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:33
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 18:37
Is just this name that I always associate with a species that seems to have dropped one of the cross veins in the sub marginals creating too.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:48
Yeah, there's no matter like that, yeah.

Droege, Sam 18:50
Yeah, nomad, I and I think there's another one.
Umm, so here we talked about this in.
You can go to the past sessions on tribulus lacking a midline and distinctly larger punctures on the clipeus.
Another pretty subtle thing, but in this document Molly has some good photos and the midline can be pretty subtle, so a lot of the when we scored things in discover, life in Molly had a really nice collection because she was working at the National Museum I was often.
Fudged.
You know this clipeus midline thing, when they had them to include two categories.
Barely.
You know, they essentially.
Just completely having them and a a vague midline.
And if it was really a tricky one that might be scored for all three on there.
But in this case it lacks midlines and uh versus the alternative one with a distinct clypeal midline.
And that's a can be a really good character, but when it's sometimes there's this vague line, you're not sure what to do with that.
Do you wanna talk about any of that?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 20:18
Yeah.
And and viewing angle and lighting is important.
Sometimes for that median line, because sometimes it it I mean like you said, it's really kind of vague, but it's still there.

Droege, Sam 20:25
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 20:28
But depending on how you angle the specimen and direct the light, that can look more or less apparent. So.

Droege, Sam 20:36
Yeah, so lighting wise, a lot of times you know some of the best lighting is at an angle and sometimes you even putting if you have two lights, both lights coming from one side, so that surface sculpturing is pops a little bit because some of this surface sculpturing is pretty subtle and if you have a very completely diffuse lighting system that might be good with shiny surfaces and looking at microscope, sure, but sometimes it becomes difficult to see topography.
Umm yeah.
I don't know.
So we've talked about some of these other things, axler spine exceeding skew teller midpoint and things like that.
So basically saying whether the spine is long or short and it's another basically measurement thing and and we've gone gone over it.
So unless you have something more to say, we'll just jump down now to 7.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:35
Sure. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 21:37
So 7 here.
So this is a new species that she hadn't defined, and I don't know if this one has a name yet.
Do you know that's not species 101, which became a lissieu in a subsequent one?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:52
OK.

Droege, Sam 21:55
I don't.
I'm I'm pretty sure.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:56
Then this one?
Yeah.
Then this one must not must still be unnamed.

Droege, Sam 21:59
Yeah.
So I have a never keyed anything to that, no.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:03
The.
Have neither.

Droege, Sam 22:08
And unless for some reason, because it I believe the one that did get a name was called new novel Species 101 for some reason.
But it's, uh.
Anyway, we'll to be clarified because it should show up because it is an eastern species.
So here we're dealing lacking midline and a weak to strong midline, which you often ah.
We often score for being both in discover life, and then we have apex of axilla.
So those are the two little wings off the side of the skew Tellem pointy things that usually don't project out.
But in Tripoli, CPS Celia Oxis do, and it's talking about them being rounded instead of pointed and not barely reaching the midpoint of the skew Dum, same as above.
And we see that the counterpart is pointed rather than rounded.
So what does she mean by pointed versus rounded?
You should take a look at a picture because you're rounded could be my pointed and vice versa.
So it's a relative thing. I'm at.
So Claire is asking if we can look at it and I for sure have pointy things, but in this group I don't have any of these.
These are all uncommon species, so I don't have.
In particular, I don't have it an example. Pardon.
Right.
So this area here of things with uh umm, with apex rounded is only refers to this one species, which I don't think Mike either Micah, I have seen so we can't can't give you clarity.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 24:10
Umm.

Droege, Sam 24:13
So by extension, almost everything else is gonna be pointed and I'm not sure if she mentions any other species having that.
I don't know what she has in her guide here, but she has figures and pictures for a lot of these that you should be able to see.
That feature.
So she should have a habit of shot of the back and you should be able to look at the axilla there.
Maybe someone could look that up.
Yeah.
Jordy cause Mitchell and it and right now I have.
Cockrell have variable numbers of submarginal cells per write.
Buyer for this paper.
OK.
So it sounds like tribulus like bikes fit codes and some of these other groups that are trend I would say towards being nest parasites.
For whatever reason.

Carter, KC joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 25:09
Lose and gain their submarginal cross veins more easily than, say, some of the solid pollen Garrett gathering species.
I have no idea why that would be, but it's seems to be a pattern.
Alright, so that's this odd species here and then we go on to some of the other pointy ones with several different features that help separate it from that species.
That wasn't described in that paper, and again, we just move further into.
Uh, places that I don't have specimens and Mike might, but just to mention briefly here, when we talk about color.
So what's what you're getting in terms of the integument is you have black and then you have some sections and it's variable that are going to be somewhere between a orangish or reddish color.
And the extent of that can help separate species, but it also within a species can be variable in itself.
So a lot of times the separation is more along the lines of has no orange or.
Reddish segments to its body, which can be the tegula, and it can be the.
Umm the and often includes a good chunk of the legs, and in a few cases a bit more of the body or basically all dark brown Mike.
You wanna talk about that a little bit?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:49
Umm.
Well, yeah.
I mean the color particularly with those some common species like crossing eye and.
Then he'll be anti that the degree and the intensity of the color kind of comes and goes.
And it's not always the same, and you don't appreciate it until, I guess, seen a series or seen the number of specimens.
But what I'll say about Michigan insists is I've seen one and it had been pulled out as an apologist because it's so tiny and it looked.

Droege, Sam 27:18
Uh-huh.
Ohh.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 27:24
I mean, that's very easy to to think that you've got, if you, Allison, if you're not, if you're just sorting by eye, you know and that's been in this case, it had been pulled aside, isn't yours.
But it wasn't so that, you know, 8 to 9 millimeters for a tribunal is is tiny.
And so that's that's an important feature for that one I think.

Droege, Sam 27:47
Yeah.
So I think it's worth mentioning that in a vibe sort of way, EPO list tends to be smaller, more a little more compact like squish together I would say and also in the females the suitable Egidio area is narrower.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:00
The.

Droege, Sam 28:08
It's it's.
It's clearly much wider than it is long on the body and in tribulus.
While the shape can be variable and also is useful sometimes for separating things out, it tends to be basically as long as wide.
I would say and then the males are trickier to tell.
So Mike, you wanna add some notions about that?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:38
Yeah, I mean I you know, when I when I'm pinning.
Uh fresh specimens of of EP.
Also tried deals.
I mean, I just just all automatically pull this thing out and with the value on so you can because that's the, you know, occasionally, you know, you do see a specimen that well, you know, is that make yours or is it tribulus or so?

Droege, Sam 28:52
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:02
And and if you see this this the the value of the parallel to sting that are very different in the 22 general, they're very spiny and bristly and tribulus, but not not that way yours.
And so sometimes if you don't go ahead.

Droege, Sam 29:16
Yeah.
And there's a.
Yeah, I was gonna say there's a couple on both sides.
And there's an EP list.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:23
Yes.

Droege, Sam 29:25
What's the one begins with L that I often like?
Ohh I've gotta try epulis here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:29
Let let electrolytes.

Droege, Sam 29:32
Yes, it's bigger and it presents as a trial in terms of like thinness and other things, but it's not, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:34
Yep, yeah.
And it's common, right?
And it's common too.
So you often get it umm.
Anyway, after piece which is called the 9:00, that's one we get in the Midwest.
I don't know if you gets over OK.

Droege, Sam 29:52
You know.
Yep.
So are there any distinct things here that you really wanna point out?
These are combinations of common characters often.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:00
What?
Yeah.
Well, with atrophy, is it the lead?
It's right there in a couple of nine.
Clip is flat and it's really flattened.
I mean, you know that stands out and it's just like, I mean it's like the bottom of frying pan and most other trachealis that in the east.
Well, the Gladius isn't greatly inflated, it's it's definitely convex, you know, in the lateral view and with attributes, it's definitely flat, really stands out.

Droege, Sam 30:35
Umm, so this would be similar to andrina.
Will Kella kind of thing.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:41
Yeah.
Yep, Yep, Yep.

Droege, Sam 30:44
Where the rest of andrina?
Well, not the not all the rest.
Some are also a little bit flattened.
Have this slight convexity to their.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:55
The.

Droege, Sam 30:56
Clipeus, but it's not at all like the user lines or something, so it's all.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:00
Right.

Droege, Sam 31:02
It's always relatives, you know when it says convex and profile.
It's just a little bit convex in profile.
Alright.
Anything more on in that that world there the?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:16
What is the very last statement about the paramedian band?
You know, those are those bands that are parallel.
To each other and to the margins of the skewed them, those really are can be very, very useful and important, but they also wear.
And so sometimes in this case, it says the band's not reaching the anterior margins and the message scutum.
That's the one you need to be a little careful of sometimes, because if, umm, maybe it doesn't.
You're not sure they're they're close, but they really reach it.
Are they worn?
So that's those bands, you know.
And then the nature of them reappear over and over in a lots of tribulus skis.
You just have to be because they are on top of the schedule.
Those, that's where where occurs.
And so you just have to be a little careful of that.

Droege, Sam 32:06
Yeah.
Yep, they also keep in mind that if you have goopy specimens, or even a little bit goopy that these white bands, these oppressed white bands disappear really quickly because they're so oppressed.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 32:13
No. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 32:24
They're so prone that if the, whatever the goo is, which is often the internal proteinaceous proteinaceous protein bearing, whatever that are almost impossible to clean off, it just turns black.
And this is true and truism everywhere.
Which is if you have here, that's gooped down even if if it may be bright white.
Under normal circumstances, it will turn black and that can be a problem.
That's why you want to keep your specimens clean and to clean specimens of after connecting.
Depending on what you were doing, how you were doing it out in the field, it just complicates things, particularly when you don't have that much experience.
So OK, so we'll head out here to 10.
This is the last section before we get into yellowish banded things.
We'll see simple similar things, so here T1 this discal patch.
So when we talk about the discal patch, if you look at the T1 in most cases T1 is covered with a large chunk of these oppressed white hairs, and in the very middle of it, so centered where it begins to transition downwards towards the the anterior face that's facing the skew them or.
Throwing a picture?
Yeah.
Uh, I will open up the thing.
You'll see a a dark area while I'm doing that, you could explain a little bit about those dark areas, but these patches are really useful if you wanna talk Mike.
While I'm I'll open up discover life, because that's easiest thing to do.

Bio joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:14
Yeah, the shape, you know, those white oppressed pairs frame a particular shape of careless area and that can be really diagnostic.
And again, it can be worn a little bit also and can be discolored by that.
There are some other sales, so you got to be a little careful, but if it's a specimen that's in good shape and like these images, I mean it's any cases it can be species diagnostic.
It's very, very distinctive, so.

Droege, Sam 34:42
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:54
Yep.

Droege, Sam 34:54
The oppressed hairs here and what this in general, there's a band across the bottom, and then there's something going on in the side.
So here it's the the the band is.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:03
The.

Droege, Sam 35:08
Uh, you know I what would that be called?
Even acute to the edges, whereas in actually we have a key, so you can have a very from nothing.
Basically on the sides in terms of a pressed hair is running up and people use different language.
For this, you know Tom or in a furco in his EP list, one has a entirely different lingo for talking about these things.
You can get something that's a 90 degree and you can get things that are 45 degree in and like we love just saw in this one you can get things that depending on how you're measuring your angles are basically 180 degrees out.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:50
Yeah.
Yeah, that's concave.

Droege, Sam 35:51
Really useful, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:52
That's.
Yeah, that's concaves.
That's the very distinct species.

Droege, Sam 35:56
Yeah, I mean the, the, I always find it irritating that the species that are distinct that are really distinct have a million distinct characters and then everything else is sort of in this muddy middle.
It's like, come on.
Can you share some of those distinct characters?
Yes, I think I'll absolutely and and these hair patterns too pretty much.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 36:19
OK.

Droege, Sam 36:27
Would you say, Mike, do you see much male female differentiation and hair pattern hair color?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 36:35
Not dramatically so.
Umm.
And I think that's why Molly put the both sexes in the same key.
But there are morphologically in terms of structure of the males and females are quite different, and I think different enough so that there are other features that that don't wear away or get discolored in those both sexes that are really useful, you know, like concave.

Droege, Sam 36:50
Yeah.
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:03
It's the one you're with the image here.
Umm.
On the left, I mean the females are totally unique.
That what the tail end is blunt.
It's not tapered.
I mean, it's very distinctive species.
And so they're there's some structural things I think that are just as important, maybe more so than sometimes the hair patterns, they don't wear away.

Droege, Sam 37:22
Yeah.
Great.
So yeah, so in females, a lot of it, the difference, different characters would all be around the suit.
Not all, but focus on the pseudo pygidial area, so that's the area at the end of the tip of the tail that we're not seeing here because this is the mail guide and that I guess is used for something to do with pressing the egg into the wall of the nest or I'm not sure, but it's roughened in a unique way.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:35
Right.

Droege, Sam 37:58
And then the in the mail.
Often it's the sternites have different hair patterns.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:02
Yes.
Yeah.
And maybe we'll look at some of those.

Droege, Sam 38:05
So we, yeah.
And we did do that.
So when we go back now to the key, now we're flipping to things that have a a bit of a yellowish coloration in there and we see that we're replicating what we talked about before has erect simple CT and this is where we're gonna see umm, ohh the pectoralis here, which is relatively common and that's the one that I see enough to go like ohh, there's those hairs.
It's gotta be probably.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:37
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 38:38
It's probably gonna be picked oralis and you know you have again week midline on the clippies versus strong midline.
Tricky, right?
So that's why she has several characters here, because you're weak and my week are different, different stories.
So here it is.
These two convert are going to 12.
Have the obvious but sparse and have to be looked at closely.
Erect hairs on the bottom side of the plura or misapply sternum, and then you get to separating brittani, which I have never seen.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:17
Never seen it either.

Droege, Sam 39:17
Uh. Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:18
Not knowingly.

Droege, Sam 39:20
Versus pectoralis and based on a set of different characteristics including in the Pseudopotential area, which I just think probably for today, we're just not gonna get into a lot of details or never get through this.
So this has yellowish and if we go then to the next group which doesn't have any of the.
Umm, a rect hairs on the plum up, you see concaves and this is a good one to look at if you want to look for a yellowish because it it is pretty obvious on it.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:55
The.

Droege, Sam 39:57
And so is rima.

Carter, KC left the meeting

Droege, Sam 39:59
Got us if you wanna like ohh.
What is this subtle yellow?
These are two species, particularly both concaves and and Renegades are pretty easy to ID, and both can be common renegade as much more so, and you can use them as your exemplar of like, oh, that's what they're talking about.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 40:05
The.

Droege, Sam 40:21
Because usually it shows up uh, particularly Renegades, cause it's a a pepper napis pruinosa, a specialist in umm most environments because it's gonna be in gardens and in pumpkin fields and things like that.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 40:39
Yeah, we see in the Midwest, concave US is super.
I mean it's it uses, it's faster oblique one as a host, at least one host and it's common.

Droege, Sam 40:46
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 40:49
I mean, it's worse.

Droege, Sam 40:50
Yeah, we we had when we started, we didn't have any records for the state and we've gotten several now by concentrating in these areas that do have faster and it.
But it's in the east.
It's just not as abundant, I think as the Midwest, but probably faster is not as abundant because and because you have prairies with composites all over the place and you go, that's where people go and look.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 41:09
Yeah.

victor demasi left the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 41:18
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 41:19
And we have forest that sometimes has openings that sometimes has large yellow composites and things like that in it that often will then show then faster will show up.
But Vastra 10 unless you have a really big good garden, it doesn't really show up so much in the suburbs.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 41:42
Hmm.

Droege, Sam 41:43
If it's a really hunky chunk garden like you are a a native plant grower, then you'll see it sometimes, but most of the time the average suburban garden doesn't have any faster and therefore kind of cavis possibilities or 0.
So we see this in rural natural areas and not that many in the east, the species which is nice because it is distinct, umm and has you know just if you look at it the back up of a picture here it just has a really nice pattern to the skewed them and somewhat similar vein.

victor demasi joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 42:21
So does Remicade us.
And there is a picture, but let's see if I can get this right to here.
So instead of these mediate submedia lines and nice crisp wiseness opening.
It should open all the way up, but it is not yet.
Darn it should have tried it on.
That's our picture, but it's a little bit better you see that this mantle area?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 42:55
There we go.
There we go.

Droege, Sam 42:59
Well, let's click even more, I'm not sure.
All right.
Better.
So as Mike pointed out, you have this you concave pattern here which is maybe unique, uh.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 43:12
It is, I think, in the in the East.
Anyway, both sexes, males and males and females have.

Droege, Sam 43:15
OK.
And then?
Yep.
And then you have a more of a mantle of white oppressed hairs up here and you don't have any of these Chevron or anchor shapes that Rama goddess has.
And you certainly don't have these sub medial marks going down and is big is a big B.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 43:34
Really big.
Yeah.
And also that's a good example of what Molly meant.
By yellow I mean that that that's yellow.

Droege, Sam 43:40
Oh yeah, sure.
And here's your oddball white band at the end.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 43:43
You notice?
Yeah.
Notice.
Yeah, it could.
It gets fainter towards the end of the year.

Droege, Sam 43:52
See there is.
See how subtle it is?
So there's something that's more probably pretty darn close to what a white Gray hair would look at, and now you're seeing this.
This is noticeable, right?
So this is in in probably in our books a clear yellow by definition of what you're calling yellow, but you really don't want to call it yellow because people have expectations.
They're gonna see something like a bus in on it.
Come coloration versus the white other ones, but you could very easily call that if you weren't into the subtleties.
You could call that white like.
Ohh, that's those are white hairs.
But if you look it's dirty, dingy, yellow, white.
Yeah.
So anyway, welcome to bees.
All right, let's go back to Molly's keys here.
You're concave.
This that can be knocked out pretty easily because of that and almost right away.
And when you look elsewhere, you have these paramedia bands coming down and but I think Renegades, which should be covered down there and sometimes doesn't conform to really having paramedical bands, but it has, I'm assuming that it will show up down here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:18
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 45:23
It has a enough differences.
So.
Yeah.
So we get into what time do we have here?
How many more 10 minutes?
10 minutes OK.
Feel like I should hurry up here.
At least a little bit when we talk about distinctus, I don't have anything in particular that I think you know to talk about there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:47
The.
Yeah, it's fairly common in Midwest.
It's a it's a parasite of dying nomia heteropoda, and we all know.

Droege, Sam 45:57
Oh, that's right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:58
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 45:58
Yes, no. Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:59
And so it's a, it's another big bee, and it's very distinctive, very distinctive pattern.
And that again, it's another one even in the field, you can recognize it.

Droege, Sam 46:04
Right.
Yeah, it's really red.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:09
And.

Droege, Sam 46:10
It's really, really red.
Ohh, at least where we are in terms of the generation.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:14
Huh.
Yeah, it it's there and they're not here.
Umm. Nope.

Droege, Sam 46:18
Yeah, they're not old.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:20
I'm they're they're.

Droege, Sam 46:20
Let's let's go.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:22
They're yellow, like the like.
The one you got on the screen, but even more so I think.

Droege, Sam 46:28
No weird because, well, maybe variation.
No, he's forget that.
That's what this is, but it's got tons in.
This is the inefficient way, but it's got tons of red on the legs.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:42
Ohh I'd oh, I'm sorry.
Yeah, I misunderstood you.
I thought you were referring to that a few baskets.

Droege, Sam 46:48
Oh, no, no, no. Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:49
Yeah. No.
Yeah.
No, the Midwestern ones look.
Yeah, they look similar to that.

Droege, Sam 46:53
OK good.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:53
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 46:54
But ohh, but you can as this comes back up.
Notice again here are in fact these two segments, I would say are more white.
This one really clearly and the white, Gray and this is there's your yellow bands and that's a general pattern.
It's not all the same, and these posterior bands tend to be, you know, back to a whitish and you can see up here, you know, it's kind of equivocal.
Like what am I looking at there in terms of coloration?
These, though, are very clearly yellowish.
You see again to see how.
Ohh.
Even though this bee is working with hetero dianoia, a really different group than that, it's not even a user urine.
Umm.
And so it probably diverged a million years ago.
It still has a lot of these same characters.
So yeah, that was.
That's a fun we found.
That was again not known from the state, and then we found this big colony, which is very uncommon like that.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 47:55
Uh.

Droege, Sam 48:01
There were very few records and we still have very few sites that have the dianoia some they just show up here and there very and in a complex of.
I sand mines in the reason fact, not far from my house, I get dianoia in my backyard, but they have to fly all the way from there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:22
Yeah, yeah, I remember.
Yeah, we talked about this. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 48:25
Yeah.
So, but distinctives showed up there.
And Tim and Don of who are also big collectors in the area, they have quite a few, you know maybe 20-30 of them.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:36
Umm.

Droege, Sam 48:38
So apparently there's there's still the dynamic is common enough that they can sustain overtime this tribulus, which really doesn't have records.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:46
Yeah.
The.

Droege, Sam 48:54
I think it's several states away.
Probably North Carolina or something.
It's just there's a lot of these weird patterns.
OK.
And does it do?
Does it nest with triangular aphra dinoia triangular lafera?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:08
The do not know I've I have never found him associated with.

Droege, Sam 49:09
Do you think that's a lot smaller?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:13
That doesn't mean anything.

Droege, Sam 49:14
Right.
Yeah, because that one, that species there too, another big weird disjunct.
Seeing minds.
Gotta love them.
Don't fill them with trash.
So, OK.
And so you have this the.
The again, it's mostly patterns of things that we've talked about before and then quarterpast piadas I've got maybe I think 1 record, but you wanna you probably get more in the Midwest, right?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's and it's a parasite of faster attributes and it's it's a sand and that's the only place we find that's along the Mississippi and Missouri rivers.

Droege, Sam 49:49
Yeah.
Ah, OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:55
But it could be common.
Very super distinctive.
Mean.
That's another really the pattern is very.
And.
So I mean, I don't know if attributes gets out.
I don't know think it gets over your way.
Maybe it does, but ah.

Droege, Sam 50:12
You know it, it does.
It's a only on the coastal plain.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:16
OK.

Droege, Sam 50:16
Do we get entropies?
But I I think again I have to go back and look at my records.
I think I only have one specimen, a quadric fasciitis, but I may have to based on what you said, add it to the sand species list in their publication.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:31
I would. Yeah. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 50:32
OK, great.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:33
Yeah, that's a good point.

Droege, Sam 50:34
But at do you think of Vastra atrophies though as sand specialist I?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:39
Look, I wouldn't call Walt Laberge, said said as much in his revision.
But we find it, we find it in other other wetlands where there isn't much sand at all.

Droege, Sam 50:44
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:50
But I think I mean it like sand, definitely.

Droege, Sam 50:51
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:54
So I wouldn't say it's an obligation, but it certainly is.

Droege, Sam 50:58
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:59
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 51:00
Well, do you think it's nest parasite though?
Is an obligate sand nest.
You like?
It needs to have atrophies in sand.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:08
That I don't know.
But that's only place that the only place we found quarter fasciitis is in sand deposits along those big rivers.

Droege, Sam 51:09
OK, alright, maybe and.
OK, I'll have to look at where where records I have are from.
OK, well now that one.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:24
Like we have uh, Ohio be along the Howell River probably.
And you know some.

Droege, Sam 51:29
Uh-huh.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:29
So anyway.

Droege, Sam 51:30
But do you see it on you only see it on riverine sands.
You don't see it on interior sand deposits like Southern Illinois or Great Lakes.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:37
Now we.
Can't.
Yet is up.
It's up in the the Tulsa area in the Great Lakes, those those lacustrine sands.

Droege, Sam 51:45
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:47
Yeah, it's not common, but it's up there.

Droege, Sam 51:48
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:49
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 51:50
All right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:51
So maybe Sam.

Droege, Sam 51:54
OK, alright.
Two, it's borda.
Moron, there's us.
So much, moron. These things.
OK.
So then we so it has this huge pronotal collar and several other things that make it.
It's big, umm, make it different in terms of like these kinds of things separated from all the others too.
So it's a nice, very distinct one in groups that often can be a little confusing.
So here we have the suitable judicial area of shapes, so this would be females only and triangular.
And then something that's not triangular?
Umm.
And if we look at what that means?
Ohh this is the on simplex which I think Molly might consider to be a complex.
Umm and I'm not sure she ever got around and wrote odontis umm to describing that first.
I believe we found one of these in the state weirdly on.
I'd have to go double check, but Gene, didn't you find one on Poplar Island?
So it's, which is the dread spoil site and just way out of range, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:06
Wow.

Eugene Scarpulla 53:09
Yep.
Yeah, we got one on Poplar Island.
The first state record.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:14
Shoes.

Droege, Sam 53:15
And I think the nearest state record, first of all is a super uncommon thing was maybe like Georgia or something weird.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:23
Wow.

Droege, Sam 53:23
Do you see a simplex shows up pretty regularly, but do you see this?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:27
Yep, I've never seen it.

Droege, Sam 53:30
Yeah.
Yeah, another lots of cool things on that dread spoil site, which in a lot of ways doesn't make any sense, including invasive species that have shown up and crazy.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:38
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 53:43
So it just said bees are dispersing cause it's 2 miles to the nearest land form from that island.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:48
Wow.

Droege, Sam 53:50
And that island's not huge.
What was like 25 acres, gene?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:54
The.

Eugene Scarpulla 53:55
Umm.
Uh, I don't remember.

Droege, Sam 53:57
If they.
OK.
Anyway, it had gone down to about a couple acres, a scattered among several tiny, tiny, tiny remnant islands.

Eugene Scarpulla 54:10
Yeah, it was down to.

Droege, Sam 54:10
Clearly these things have to come in.

Eugene Scarpulla 54:11
It was down to four acres before the restoration.

Droege, Sam 54:15
You know.
OK, so if we go now to here where we're looking at devad ensis somebody, no, I was asking, can we look at some pictures of the acute angle of the T2?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:32
The.

Droege, Sam 54:33
Umm on uh the cute angle of T2.
Ohh I see of the the the band auntie two or what species has that.
Well, we can go back to the guide because there was some pictures there on that one.
And if we look here at the Tribulus guide and.
And move upwards so strongly acute.
There's a weekly acute which we don't have a picture of, but so here's the hair.
This is T1T2.
Here's that disco patch, in this case quite wide.
On T2 you have the hair band, which I think they all have along the apical rim and then the important thing is like what's going on on the side that help differentiate.
And in this particular case, you have this acute angle.
If that's what is that the question, am I answering the question that way?
That's all. Thanks.
OK, alright.
You can see when we like, bring up this one.
So we have a we do have a hair band going up, but it's square in terms of to the lower band and sometimes it's kicked out and it's at greater than 90 degrees.
And then you had that concaves one where which would be measured as obtuse, right?

Wolf, Amy left the meeting

Droege, Sam 56:06
Greater than 180, but it's also the whole area is concave and you don't really have a very distinct band.
This the whole area sort of filled in again.

Searles Mazzacano, Zee left the meeting

Droege, Sam 56:19
Another unique aspect of that particular species.
Right.
This as you get as as you go further and further into keys you get into the cloudier and cloudier species groups that you're going to be like simplexes.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:30
Yep.

Droege, Sam 56:35
Sometimes one of those ones I have to spend a little time to confirm that that's what I have.
Nevadensis do you see that one?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:44
Uh, I've got a few specimens from Western NE, I think.

Droege, Sam 56:49
OK so and I I don't know. Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:51
That that's outside out.
Yeah, out outside of the Midwest, it's supposed to be here.
And we just haven't found it.

Droege, Sam 56:59
Yeah, but you can see it's a whole series of characters that are, none of which are particularly distinct in in it's it's like, umm, the combo works to differentiate but not anything like some of the other species we just went through.
Umm.
And so.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 57:27
What?

Droege, Sam 57:29
OK, Jean said, North Carolina and Pennsylvania and Pennsylvania.
OK.
Pennsylvania for rotenone us, Trump and then also just pointing out if you don't look for these things and you're not spending a lot of time hunting bees in general or collecting in interesting different habitats, a lot of this stuff might as well be extinct because you're just not gonna see it.

Chris Kreussling (Flatbush Gardener, he/they) (Guest) left the meeting

Droege, Sam 57:53
So the well we're talking about at the beginning with uh Khalidi ciliatus same thing it's been there.
It has to have been there, including it's super rare nest parasite apparently.
But who collects in places you get your feet wet in dense tangles of daughter, and who knows what else.
But once you do, probably it's regular.
I mean, James was saying ohh this is 5 miles from my house and it's going to be a housing development next year.
So it's not like he was in an exotic location.
It's just no one is jumping into wetlands with daughter.
OK, back to tribulus.
So Renegades, the thing about Renegades is it's common and you can and we'll just call up the picture.
You can pretty much idea it from the anchor shape on the back in combination with a small triangle or diamond shape.
Uh disco patch, so let me just type this in.
And this has to be the species that shows up the most often, and triethyl island you see?
OK, let's see if we can actually click on this. Umm.
So yeah, it this this sort of midden triangular.
Uh shape with this small?
Umm, middle.
If you want to call that triangular or quadrate disco patch, I don't think you need to look any further on that.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:35
The.

Droege, Sam 59:36
You don't see it's everything's dark.
There's no reddish areas.
Anything to add on that, Mike?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:41
No, no, it's not all that common out here.
We I mean it's here, but we don't.

Droege, Sam 59:45
Not really.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:45
Yeah, we it's not.
You know, it's one of our.
It's certainly not a real common species.

Droege, Sam 59:52
Yeah, it's probably just reflects the fact that you have more open country with big composites that you guys are looking in.
Then we do and we have gardens.
And this will show up anywhere you know it'll show up in the middle of the city because people are planting squash and pumpkins.

victor demasi left the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:00:14
So Renegades, pretty straightforward ID.
Then if we jump down to the next.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:00:22
Never seen it, never seen.

Droege, Sam 1:00:23
You.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:00:23
I've never seen minority.

Droege, Sam 1:00:25
Yeah.
So Claire asked if there's another parasite on Peppa Napus and I don't think so, right?
It's only really got us far as I do.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:00:35
Far as I know.
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:00:36
Yeah.
So this one was on our list of species that hadn't been seen in 20 years.
If you remember that paper from 2010, I think it was, but I did see one show up in the South in the Deep South a number of years ago on, you know, like Southern Georgia, Florida area, uh, it's if I recall it was very distinct looking and.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:00:49
Umm.
Uh.

Droege, Sam 1:01:06
I forget, I think it is.
Is it another sastra?
Umm, maybe one of the southerns faster specialists?
I'm not remembering at this time.
Gene will tell us.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:01:17
I'm not either, OK.

Droege, Sam 1:01:19
Uh, so yeah, there's OV Pseudopotential area if I remember it was monstrously large.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:01:24
Hmm.
Wow. OK.

Droege, Sam 1:01:26
And yes, so very so 15 to 18.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:01:31
That's a monster.

Droege, Sam 1:01:33
Yeah.
And umm Yep.
So, umm, but if we can look, I think they have a we have a picture of it.
With the minority.
Umm do you have a heads up?
We are overtime.
Yeah.
Hey, we're here together.
And Ken overtime, if you just wanna wrap up the last four, yeah, we will.
So the because we're just gonna get.
So it was, if I recall when I looked at, it was like, wow, that is big, that has to be something different.

Laura McHenry (she/her) (Guest) left the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:02:14
So you can it even looks big in this picture, so I won't go into any further there.
That was a fun find.
So these last well, so first of all, maybe even more than Renegades, we see lunatics everywhere and.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:02:30
Well, I totally, totally agree.
And in fact, if you look at malley's that Molly's revision, she lists how many specimens that each species she looked at, and almost half of all the specimens she looked at were Natus.

Droege, Sam 1:02:37
Uh-huh.
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:02:46
So that tells you how it's common throughout the whole country.
Maybe the most common.

Droege, Sam 1:02:50
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:02:51
Yeah.
And it's also variable.

Droege, Sam 1:02:52
Yeah.
So, uh yeah, no color can be pretty variable on the extent of the legs.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:02:57
Yep, Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:03:00
And if I remember right, a lot of at times the keying outcomes down to, I think it lacks a or does it have a central clip, you'll raise line and then the T1 was, you know, pretty distinct it doesn't it and discover life at keys out pretty quickly with just a couple clicks.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:21
Ohh OK that that's good.

Droege, Sam 1:03:23
And so you don't have to go way down here.
The I'm I'm guessing it's probably like a melissodes try notice.
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:30
The.

Droege, Sam 1:03:30
No, it's no, I've been because that's the most common melissodes for us.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:36
It I think, uh.
Molly lists by maculatus.
Also, he's by maculatus is as a probable host.

Droege, Sam 1:03:41
Ohh ah.
Yeah.
In fact, that's it would be a toss up as to whether by manipulators or trying to notice is more common in our area.
So that would make sense question.
And it's asking how specific the trileptal is.
Are Mike, you wanna take that one?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:04:08
Well, I, I mean, I'll, I I don't think they're they're any species that are you call it generalist.
As far as we know, umm, so you know, some of them are, you know like.
The one that's on Pepper napis.
That's apparently it's, you know, that maybe other pepper Navas somewhere else in its range, but I think most of them seem to be fairly specific.
I mean the.

Droege, Sam 1:04:33
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:04:35
Quite fasciatus is apparently only on faster after these, and that's etcetera, so they seem to be fairly fairly.
Particular, that's and then there's some we just don't.

Droege, Sam 1:04:46
Yeah, some of the.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:04:48
We don't know yet.

Droege, Sam 1:04:50
Yeah, the tricky thing is the host.
Often the host Ness are hard to find, and then you might find a tribulus poking around.
So you would wanna collect it?
Of course, but sometimes it's not necessarily the case that something poking around or even going in and out of the nest is a host.
It may be just checking it out or something along those lines, and probably they make mistakes too, so this is one of those things where you just need long term Natural History or you need someone who's really spending a lot of time with the host and digging out Ness.
Something more definitive would be I dugout this nest and raised this Tripolis out of a nest that I knew had was this host, and I found host larvae and there and adults in it too.
But that's almost never done.
No, mada are really a classic case of fuzziness in terms of hosts.
A lot of the hosts are like, well, it was near.
I caught a bunch of MACRA at the same time, so I must be a MACRA host.
Maybe, but yeah, so I know there's Molly does not list post records from Leonardo Anarde.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:05:59
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:06:06
OK.
And interesting.
OK.
So these two Mike mentioned before this, this becomes a rough pair I think of as often I'm spending a lot of time like and then going back to my collection, the micro pigeons.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:15
Uh.
Yep.
Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:06:26
I don't is not something I've ever keyed out, but Mike, do you wanna?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:29
The Nope.
I've never seen it, but yeah, he only anti and crescini.

Droege, Sam 1:06:32
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:34
Boy, it's giving me a headache once or twice.
They're both very fairly common in the Midwest and often in the same often in the same place.

Droege, Sam 1:06:42
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:45
And yeah, same size.
I mean, they're very, very, very similar and neither one of them has anything that's any single feature that these tells me that that's what it is.

Droege, Sam 1:06:51
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:56
It's kind of comma combination of things.

Droege, Sam 1:06:57
Yeah.
I've always thought that at some point in some proverbial future that someone would pay the people who are collecting a lot of these things that all just kind of get together and bring your, you know, let's just do tribulus and and then work through some of these tricky groups or even lazy blossom and things like that, because a lot of times it's just staring at long, long, long strings and looking for consistency versus I have one.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:07:29
Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:07:31
When you have just one specimen, it's really difficult sometimes to get clarity.
Me in a closely.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:07:38
Ohh totally.

Droege, Sam 1:07:39
Right sussed pear, which is a lot of times what the graduate student or researcher is confronted with and that's why I realized after a little bit of being in the business that I wasn't going to train a new set of people who are just going to immediately replace me or it was just having a few.
No, courses isn't gonna work.
So, but it would be good to have more people like Claire, myself and Mike and others available.
And in the game of spending hours staring at things to help out other folks you know, alright, I guess we're way over time now, so we'll unless there's a a quick comment from someone we'll we'll call it.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:08:19
Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:08:28
And I was gonna ask this two things.
I can you can we pull out some pictures of these two species?
Which really maybe.
Yeah, I should.
I should have end up shining one or the other.
You have any?
Umm.
And I think I wanna say that I see graysonia.
I'm more I can't even remember what the differences are.
I just had.
I spent a lot of time struggling over it.
Do you know what are?
What are we looking for in terms of differences?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:09:10
Yeah, I wanna.
I don't know if this pertains to both sexes, but the the oppressed hair patch on the sides of the thorax is continuous in one and not in the other.

Droege, Sam 1:09:15
Uh-huh.
Hmm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:09:26
Right under.

Droege, Sam 1:09:26
OK so.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:09:27
It's right. Yeah.
So it's right under the under the wing, under the pronotal lobe.

Droege, Sam 1:09:34
Mm-hmm.
So is that a break or is that not a break?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:09:38
Exactly, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:09:39
Yeah.
Can you can you say that again?
Like because what you just described in that free showing the reason there is not in the guide.
Are you showing his side body there?
I'll go back to I'm trying to pull up helianthi here Umm 2.
Umm.
Hang on.
Where's the USGS to discover life site for it?
There we go.
So actually, so these are this is the type of helianthi.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:10:15
OK.

Droege, Sam 1:10:18
And.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:10:19
So.
Yeah, that would be the complete.

Droege, Sam 1:10:26
Umm.
And run.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:10:27
So it's it it it struck.
It's stretching.

Droege, Sam 1:10:29
It's not a little patch there, it's attached is what you're saying.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:10:33
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
If I remember, if I'm remembering right, you know.

Droege, Sam 1:10:37
All right.
And then.
OK.
And then this one, if we go back, umm, a section that looks that was healing, Anthony, this I was claiming was cressoni eye and yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:10:55
Can you blow it up again?

Droege, Sam 1:10:59
It only has sort of 1 blow up level.
So I mean it looks pretty complete.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:11:03
Hey, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:11:06
There is this break here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:11:06
Yes it does. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:11:08
Villa has a break there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:11:11
But that sucks.

Droege, Sam 1:11:11
Again, I could have.
I could have easily misidentified it.
Umm, let's take a look at Mike.
Can you say again like how you would word that in a key?
Because that that character I'm not seeing in Malley's he.
Unless it was the higher up and we didn't address it.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:11:29
Hang on, hang on a second.

Droege, Sam 1:11:36
You talked about T1 and T2 and etcetera.

Andrew Aldercotte left the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:11:53
Yeah, she mentions 2 two band complete and helianthi and incomplete.

Beiriger,Robert L left the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:11:58
Umm and grassy eye.
But sometimes the again, it's like the the the, the, the, the lateral thorax.
Pubescent, sometimes the incompleteness is so narrow that it's going in modern mentioned that with respect to two, well, I think it's the same with the lateral thorax.
Few besets the incomplete.

Droege, Sam 1:12:20
So.
Here's T2.
No, that's the one.
Umm, I'm looking at Crescent, my theoretical prestonia I it's a little difficult to say.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:12:34
That, yeah, so well, and she she acknowledges this much.

Droege, Sam 1:12:34
Sound here is.
Yeah, here's T2 is and also the wing is a little bit in the in the in the way here.
If we look at that more closely, it's it's still difficult to tell.
Whether it's, umm, broken here or not.
Yeah.
It's just the wing is is preventing that and that might be or might not be and I don't know is cressoni or helianthus supposed to have the this one?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:13:08
Complete healing.
Healing Anthony would be complete until 2.

Droege, Sam 1:13:12
Yeah.
So he'll here's a here's the type specimen.
And it's complete in in this particular case, I don't think I have.
Uh, yeah, I don't have any.
Helianthi photos interesting is that he helianthi is in the yellow haired group, but maybe this is just faded that doesn't look yellow to me.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:13:38
I wouldn't call it yellow either.

Droege, Sam 1:13:39
No.
Yeah, but it's probably faded.
So the if we look at the cressoni, I want it clearly is yellowish here.
Again, male and female have so same complete or not complete.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:13:56
Yeah, yes, as far as I know, yeah.
Yeah, they're.
One of those cases where that patterns are the same in the sexes.

Droege, Sam 1:14:00
Yeah.
Alright.
We leave people with their own mystery to resolve history.
Looking at your specimens.

Zia Williamson left the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:14:21
All right.
Thank you, Mike.
Thank you, Claire.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:14:24
Examine still working on the.
Maryland stuff.
I had to be gone for a couple weeks and and uh.

Droege, Sam 1:14:30
No, wait.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Lent, Sally P left the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:14:33
No.
I look forward to that.
I'm deep into the sand beach.

Gerjets, Nicole (She/Her/Hers) (DNR) left the meeting

Jones, Beryl M. left the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:14:39
I this like this could be a paper and looking at the history of sand and for example, I've lined up, as you saw in that one table, all of these sans species in Maryland basically are southern and distribution, and they're really not coming from the Midwest.

Bonnie Zand left the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:14:53
Yeah.
OK.