97_Lasiolossum species_pilosum group pt2_Joel Gardner and Jason Gibbs_Sept 20 2023

September 20, 2023, 5:03PM

1h 0m 50s

Droege, Sam 0:03
There, Angel, we're ready to go now.

Joel Gardner 0:05
Ohk OK.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS joined the meeting

Pablo Cavigliasso joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 0:08
Alright, so we're gonna start out the the the class today by just recapping completes 12 and 13 in the 2022 Canadian dialect.

Andrew Aldercotte joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 0:20
This key to females and we kind of glossed over those in the first well last week and we're going to just show a couple more specimens to show those characters, and then we're gonna get really into the publishing group, which most of those run a couple of 73.
They all have those.
Umm, uniformly dense punctures except prunasin, which is the one we were looking at last week?
Is is the exception that one has sparser punctures.

Droege, Sam 0:51
Should I pull up the PDF now while you're talking?

Joel Gardner 0:57
Sure.

Droege, Sam 0:58
OK.
And and maybe while we're doing that, there's a already question in the chat, David, our good friend David and I have a specimen ID as dialect just close to Prime Annosum got apparently metallic in any way.
How do I otherwise confirm at least that the specimen stays?
In fact, I like this.

Joel Gardner 1:20
So as not metallic like not even the head or the OR the Jesus little not.

Jason Gibbs 1:20
It's.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:26
Correct.

Jason Gibbs 1:30
I mean, it's not impossible that you would have an entirely black dial like this.

Joel Gardner 1:31
I didn't.

Jason Gibbs 1:35
Those do occur very, very rarely, but if it's not metallic, usually that means it's not a dialogue.

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David Cappaert (Guest) 1:44
I was afraid of that.
So we have to start from scratch. Thanks.

Jason Gibbs 1:47
Message.

Joel Gardner 1:48
Yeah, that would probably be a hammy.
How it just but I can't think of any that are like area like pruinose some is is it?
Is it really hairy or is it?
Does it have less?
Best home and Homeland crew knows.

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:03
Probably less, and I do have 3 replicates of the same thing.
There are none of them.
Are metallic really in any way?
Although I may be, my eye doesn't get it.

Jason Gibbs 2:17
Well, yeah, it's a difference between brown and green.

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Ellen S 2:18
Because being brown and green, right?

Jason Gibbs 2:22
So.

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:22
Right.
It's some sort of in the eye of the beholder experience.
I don't see it as quickly as some do.
Thanks so.

Joel Gardner 2:30
Where are they from?

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:33
Oregon.

Joel Gardner 2:35
So they could be.

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Joel Gardner 2:39
And they could be basically.

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:43
OK.

Jason Gibbs 2:45
That there are some long, I mean some of the like Foxy.
Like things have longish faces with relatively dense punctures.
So, uh, they would.

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:54
Oh, right.
I I can reject the colleague because that one, I mean it might my the examples I've seen are quite long faces.
This one doesn't fit that.

Jason Gibbs 3:02
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 3:04
OK.
So yeah, maybe something in the fox.
Yeah, I grew.

Droege, Sam 3:10
Because the Pilosum and Luca Comus, that group has really long, I mean they are almost the longest ones.
You're in general gonna see you have odd the odds and ends.
Things that are a little bit longer, but they're about as long as it gets with like, longer fronts being an exception.

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Joel Gardner 3:30
Or maybe like a, there's does of all steps get a black metasoma sometimes.

Jason Gibbs 3:38
I've never seen one that I can recall.
Yeah.
I mean, I think anything else would have been pretty distinctive.
Yep.

Joel Gardner 3:52
Well, anyways, uh.

Jason Gibbs 3:54
Send it to us.

David Cappaert (Guest) 3:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 3:56
Picture.

David Cappaert (Guest) 3:56
Actually I I have really super good photos of it, so certainly I could.
I could send this to you.
The other thing is I don't wanna drag everybody down my own particular rat holes, but let's see what was my question.

Jason Gibbs 4:04
Ships.

David Cappaert (Guest) 4:09
I'll come back to it.
I'll come back to it.

Joel Gardner 4:15
Alright, so yeah, so we kind of glossed over coffee at 12 last week.
Uh this podium, with or without this oblique?
Corina, umm.
And then it to go to coffee and eat.
Or they, Carina is not curved and partially separating the doors out.
All slow?
Umm, so that kind of is a little bit hard to envision, but it's basically saying that it doesn't have the corona or if it does, it'll be really thin and weak and not really distinct.
And I'm going to show a specimen and hopefully can make it a little bit more clear.
See can I just share?
You're actually here right now.

Droege, Sam 5:02
Umm, yeah, yeah.
You can grab it.
You should just hit chair and you'll you'll be in charge.

Joel Gardner 5:06
Alright.
So this is a lazy of awesome incomplete.
Umm, it's a very common dialect just in the West, actually.
Probably the most common one in in the northwestern United States and Western Canada.
So the Carina we're looking for is right here on the purpose.
Yum.
You can see there's this kind of raised darker line that's kind of you shaped at the cars of their podium.
You can see it on the other side right here, kind of through the wing.
You can see it there.

Droege, Sam 5:43
Hey, Joel, could you on your microscope a lot of times you can flip the underside to a dark color or stick a black piece of or a dark piece of paper under.
I think the white reflecting off of the base makes it more difficult to see those things than a dark color in my experience, but because it can barely see that.

Joel Gardner 6:04
Uh, let's see.
I'll see what I can do.

Droege, Sam 6:10
Usually the disk flips over at well on the ones that I'm used to.

Joel Gardner 6:16
Well, on the on the cheap microscopes, it it does.
Uh.

Droege, Sam 6:23
Or just a a a darker piece of paper.

Joel Gardner 6:30
Here we go.

Droege, Sam 6:32
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 6:43
Alright.
There is that better?

Droege, Sam 6:47
Yeah.
Yeah, I can definitely see the Corina the loop there Corina a lot better.

Joel Gardner 6:50
OK.

Droege, Sam 6:54
Although it's just peeking out.

Joel Gardner 6:54
Yeah.
Yep, so this is the the proportial triangle is kind of right here.
Kind of makes like a Crescent shape on the dorsal surface and the dorsal lateral slope is kind of this area between that proportial triangle and the side of the prodigium down here.
So you can see how like they're trying to sort of curves up, it kind of loops up and it sort of separates those two surfaces.

Droege, Sam 7:19
What's it to?
Supporting.

Joel Gardner 7:24
That's what you're looking for with that here after.

Droege, Sam 7:27
So show the curve just so that people can see it, because you really only seeing part of it, because the wing is in the way, right?
Just use your.

Joel Gardner 7:36
I love you.

Droege, Sam 7:37
Use your cursor to outline it, right?

Joel Gardner 7:37
You're basically.
You're basically seeing all of it.
It doesn't go that far.
So on the other side, you can see it here.
There's like this bold black line.
You can see through the wing and it kind of stops right here.
So.

Droege, Sam 7:52
OK.
I can we add a little more light on I'm having a hard time actually seeing in there.
There we go.
OK.
Yeah, I was actually looking at a reflectance of the rear face and getting confused.
So would you repeat again please for me?
Where that where that the public arena are.

Joel Gardner 8:18
So there, there's the left.
One is right here anexis you shape and then the right one.

Droege, Sam 8:25
Mm-hmm.

Joel Gardner 8:27
You can see it through the wing membrane right here.

Droege, Sam 8:33
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 8:33
It, and this is a this is an interesting example because it it's not common that you would get the lateral extensions that are kind of going forward to that U shape.
So some of these will have just a little crying of it's sort of angled towards the midline.

Droege, Sam 8:50
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 8:51
That and then there's a few species like in completely in the West and something like 7 Wednesday in the east tend to have that kind of movie.

Droege, Sam 8:58
Villanova, NC.
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 9:02
You shapes the lateral extension.

Droege, Sam 9:04
Little horseshoes.

Jason Gibbs 9:06
Yeah.
So you want it if you see a black Karina, you won't always have that shape.
It might just be the center purse.

Droege, Sam 9:12
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 9:14
Yep, Yep.
So if uh, if you see a bee that has this Carina, but it kind of stops right here where I'm pointing, it stops in the midpoint right here.
So it only goes.
It's like a straight line that would, uh, go on to a couple of 13.
So that would be a a more weak Erina.
So you're looking for this upward extension this you or B shape on that complex?

Droege, Sam 9:40
Ordered.
And you have illustrations of this too, so.

Joel Gardner 9:47
Yeah, there are also figures in the key.

Droege, Sam 9:48
Yeah.
So I go back to the PDF.

Joel Gardner 9:56
Yes, I'm just gonna quick throw up a a pruinosa.
I'm on here too, and maybe.
See if we can see the alternative state.
So here is the proposed Yum on a true annosum.
And yeah, it's it's wiggling.
Too much stick this B&A in place.
Yeah, so here you can see there's not really any Karina on the proposed Yum.

Droege, Sam 10:32
And.

Joel Gardner 10:34
There is maybe like some weak through chassity here, but it's not really distinct and it definitely doesn't curve up and separate those.
The dorsolateral slope from the from the side face.

Droege, Sam 10:45
It's big.
The door.

Joel Gardner 10:50
So this is what the alternative state looks like.

Droege, Sam 10:52
Never.
Doing flip to the PDF.

Joel Gardner 10:58
Yep.

Droege, Sam 11:09
All right.
So the first one here proposed just to reiterate proposition without a bleak Corina would be the pruinose sum, and with the oblique Karina would be the incomplete.

Joel Gardner 11:25
Right.

Droege, Sam 11:27
Umm.
As examples.

Joel Gardner 11:29
Right.

Droege, Sam 11:30
Many more in this category would you say then this category?

Jason Gibbs 11:38
Many, many, many more.
Yeah, that's the default state.

Droege, Sam 11:41
OK.

Joel Gardner 11:45
Yeah, there are many more that don't have that strong, bleak krina.
So there's there's only two species that run to complete 83 and complete them in Illinois and C.

Jason Gibbs 11:56
Yeah, it's.
It's such a distinctive character that if you're in like California or something and you see that you don't really, you barely don't have to look at anything else.
You just look at that, that code would be the gap that's incomplete.

Droege, Sam 12:17
All right, onward.
Joel, are we going to 13 were 83? Yeah.

Joel Gardner 12:29
Yes, I want to stop at 13 briefly and we saw the pruno some last week with the seed them with the sparser punctures.
I'm just gonna show a a pillow some right now so that you can see the alternative state.

Droege, Sam 12:45
Goodnight.

Joel Gardner 12:45
It's, you know, those uniformly dense punctures that I was talking about.

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Droege, Sam 12:54
So you'll have to reshare.

OLIVERIO DELGADO CARRILLO joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 12:56
Yep, Yep, I'm getting the specimen ready right now.

Droege, Sam 13:00
OK.
So it's a pain to do these specimens online just because there's a lag in the focus.

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Joel Gardner 13:14
Alright, so here's a pilosum this is uh.
One of the ones that has those that really uniformly dense punctures on the student.
So you can see like all the way throughout all the punctures are pretty much almost the same distance apart.
Like even up here in the anterior portion, there's they're just as dense as they are down here in the middle.
So that's really what you're looking for with the on this character.
Yeah, yeah, that that the anterior portion more in focus looks it looks like kind of sparse when it's out of focus.
Yeah, getting more and focus and then you can see definitely dense punctures up there.

Droege, Sam 14:06
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 14:11
And there are some bees that gets pretty dense.
But you know, if you start seeing this, the interspaces between the punctures or in any area like more than a punctured diameter like fairly consistently, then you're not gonna run that way.

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Droege, Sam 14:23
No.

Jason Gibbs 14:26
The key there may be a few things that run both ways when we think that people could get confused and the West.

Droege, Sam 14:28
Didn't.
Always good.

Joel Gardner 14:40
Yep.
All right.
So then we can move on to output 7073.

Droege, Sam 14:43
I wouldn't.
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 14:59
OK.
So then yeah, here is where we get to the punk Tatum separating that one out.

Droege, Sam 15:03
Right.

Jason Gibbs 15:07
I actually have a punctum head ready to go whenever.

Droege, Sam 15:10
Umm.

Joel Gardner 15:11
Alright.

Jason Gibbs 15:12
He wants.

Droege, Sam 15:16
All right.
I'm I'm I think I'm am I showing the the PDF here.
We're at a couple of 73, OK.

Joel Gardner 15:21
Yep.

Jason Gibbs 15:25
Then I just share.
Ohh, maybe I should have shared.
Sorry, I only took you, but did you?

Droege, Sam 15:28
It's OK.
Yeah, go ahead and.

Jason Gibbs 15:30
I'll let people.
Umm so.
So I think the next couple was about headlines.
So this is this is one of the species that most likely gets mixed in with slashed blossom pilosum in the east.
So this is the face of last year blossom per punk Tatum.
And it is basically the head life and the head width are about the same.
So it's it's not a long faced theme and it looks pretty.
It has dense punctures.
It has some metallic reflections.
Relatively Perry, to be easy to mistake it for philosophy.
But this is a short face.

Joel Gardner 16:10
It's.

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Droege, Sam 16:12
Also, doesn't it have fewer?

Heidi Dobson 16:12
Also doesn't have.

Droege, Sam 16:15
Go ahead.
Go ahead, Joel.
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 16:19
East I.

Jason Gibbs 16:20
It it is different in other ways and that there's some subtle punctures on these episternal mum.

Droege, Sam 16:23
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 16:25
Umm, but.

Droege, Sam 16:27
2.

Jason Gibbs 16:28
Yeah, we'll go, you know, gossipy of the prodigal triangle and metapost known is is kind of different.
So it is different in a number of ways and it's kind of unrelated.
It just happens to also have quite dense punctures the schedule.

Droege, Sam 16:43
I think I think of this as a more northern Appalachian bee, so we really don't get any down here on the coastal plain.
What's your impression?

Jason Gibbs 16:50
Which?

Droege, Sam 16:51
And also, what's your impression of commonness?

Jason Gibbs 16:55
Umm, it can be really abundant.
Yeah, it's probably right.
Like I I've seen it a lot in Canada and I think the type localities in Colorado, uh, so it's a pretty abundant in I think it is an open kind of grassland B and it's not that it's not what I see in a lot of wooded areas, but it there are times when it's very buggy but it's not it.

Droege, Sam 17:11
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 17:22
I think last week Glosson Pilosum and you could call me some more often.
Papa did and people's collections, but I have seen an individual collections where for competitive is one of the most common species, but it was from Canada.

Droege, Sam 17:35
Yeah.
Yep. OK.
Maybe just while we have a face after show, remind the group where you're measuring from.

Jason Gibbs 17:40
That's it.

Droege, Sam 17:46
Yeah.
Can you show your measuring points again, Jason?

Jason Gibbs 17:48
Yeah, absolutely. So.
Uh, so there's there's two discrepant ways of measuring the head length.
So in my older papers I used head length which was basically from the top of the vertex year down to the end of the clypeus down there it's actually kind of a lip at the end of the play.
This it's sometimes harder to see here.
Umm.
If you see in Joel's papers he uses face lights, and so he's measuring from the bottom of the mid acellus to the same spot on these ideas.
And that's because the that sort of vertex area sometimes as it it's it's kind of goes behind it gradually kind of curves gradually and so it's harder to get it into sharp focus with the Clippers at the same time.
So that's why there's a shift to the facial lights.
And then with this just across the compound eyes, the widest part.
And it's the ratio of those two things is usually what.

Joel Gardner 18:53
Yep, that it's.

Jason Gibbs 18:54
And it's sometimes your your perspective is not always fair, so sometimes you might think that you know one as long as the other just by looking at it.
But if you actually measure, it is not so.
Hopefully those ratios are correct, but yeah.

Droege, Sam 19:11
In other words, that if the face needs to be at right angles to the plane of sight down the the microscope.

Jason Gibbs 19:20
Yeah, if you if you have a long face, if it's a long face, B if you tilt it this way, you can see my hand.
It starts the starts to look less long as you tilt it, so you have to have it at a good end so that that that might be a straight across.
But something like I have here is about right.

Droege, Sam 19:42
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 19:45
Yep, that fair for this couplet, at least for separating per punk Tatum from the Pilosum group species, you can totally eye of all at.
The difference is significant enough.
Uh, let's see.
Oh, and then, uh.
Yeah.
Should we talk about the other characters?
That means that the sternum punctures on perfume Chatham.

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Jason Gibbs 20:24
You know, if I can show them before.
Got it.

Droege, Sam 20:28
Mean it is.
This is a good general and tricky point of many identifications of dialectos because many times, if you look hard enough at the men's EPI sternum or the plura there on the side, you're like ohh are those are those pits.
Is that pitting and then I'm seeing or is that not pitting?
So maybe a little philosophical notion of what?
What you think of punctate or pitting and what you think of not punctate or pitting?

Jason Gibbs 21:01
If you have to think too hard about it, it's probably not punctate.

Joel Gardner 21:02
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 21:05
OK, so it should be obvious.

Jason Gibbs 21:06
That's good.

Joel Gardner 21:06
The line that I have, yeah, the line that I draw is, uh, if you look at the punctures and whether or not they're around.
So there's there's often punctures that are, like almost there.
If the if the media stream is kind of relos, but they'll be kind of like jammed together.
Uh, so that the edges are are they're kind of square or they're irregular shapes and they're not perfectly round.
And in that case I would that would be called.
That would be ridiculous.
Or redose sculpture.
Or else sometimes they'll be like really, really.
Really faint. Umm.
And in that case, they won't be, like, really distinct.
They're kind of blend into the surrounding sculpture, so they they have to be round and they have to be.
More.
For now, it's than other sculpture on the on the on the surface.
So like if there's any ridges or anything, that punctures should be as deep and distinct as the ridges are high.
Are deeper.

Droege, Sam 22:32
So we get back to.
It should be obvious when you look at it.
Go like ohh, there's pitting there versus looking at it for a while and going like I am.

Joel Gardner 22:38
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 22:41
I imagining pitting that would be not what you want.

Joel Gardner 22:46
Right.
So.

Droege, Sam 22:51
Alright.
Should we go to 74?

Jason Gibbs 22:54
Uh, yes, but I'm if I can.
I'm just gonna show you something hopefully.

Droege, Sam 22:59
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 23:05
So this is per punctatus.
No.
Uh, you know, if I can make that any brighter?
But and it's not, the resolution is not that great, but but where are my?
There are little punctures that you can kind of see.
Just on this kind of shiny bit, I'd have to like rotate the specimen to get the like.
You often need to like have the specimen in your hand and rotate across the the the kind of curvature of the music system to see everything.

Droege, Sam 23:30
Mm-hmm.

Jason Gibbs 23:39
But you can't really do in the static.

Droege, Sam 23:39
Can you add more light?
Can you add more light, Jason or not?

Jason Gibbs 23:42
Ohh look, read it. What's?

Droege, Sam 23:43
Are you a manual?
Is there a?
So again, in the in the system you have where it says exposure, you have that little pull down menu that says 2 right now.
If you change it on the right hand side.
Yep, Yep.
You should go.
Nope.
The other way and now try one of those.
And it should.
Well, maybe not.
Anyway, that should have changed the light.
Let's we won't dive.
You're using the same thing we have, and it should have changed the exposure.
You should be able to change the exposure on that system.
There we go.
Ohh I was the opposite direction I my apologies.

Jason Gibbs 24:33
No.
Writer, but I don't know if you can see it's.

Droege, Sam 24:36
That.

Jason Gibbs 24:39
Maybe let's focus.
Yeah.
It's.
I'm going to stop touching it.
I need the exposure also makes it the lag longer yes.

Droege, Sam 24:52
Umm OK.

Jason Gibbs 24:54
Anyway, yeah, you're looking for.
As you know, this fairly round, deep punctures.
Umm I'll stop sharing because that's a little that.

Joel Gardner 25:05
Yeah, I have a pruno some that I can show the alternative state I can show on that does not have punctures.

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Droege, Sam 25:16
And you can do that now, Joel, OK.

Joel Gardner 25:17
Yeah.
Yeah, I can do that.
So here's a pruno some and this is what I would call umm weekly ruos.
Is that what they call this sculpture?

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Joel Gardner 25:34
So you can see it's the.

Droege, Sam 25:35
Yep.

Joel Gardner 25:36
There's like kind of some punctures down here that kind of some round pits, but they're really like, jammed together.
They're not perfectly round and there's all this irregular ridges kind of all over the place.
So you can cut and like especially like up here on the.
This is the hypo ephemeron up here.
This area right below the wing and there's.
Yeah, there's also kind of some punctures on that surface.
I can get them in focus.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's maybe some pits there, but again, they're like really jammed together and not all of them are perfectly round.
So this is, yeah, they're not obvious.

Droege, Sam 26:21
Not obvious.

Joel Gardner 26:30
Yep, so this is a.

Droege, Sam 26:30
Which is the more common?

Joel Gardner 26:31
This is Ruby yellows.
And all the pilosum group species will have sculpture like this on the musevi sternum.

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Droege, Sam 26:44
Alright, I'll take it back to the PDF.

Joel Gardner 26:47
All right.

Droege, Sam 26:49
So I think we're going trying to go down to 74 here.
Ohh, there's there's a nice comparison of the two.
OK.

Joel Gardner 27:03
Yeah.
Yeah, that's actually macrocell from and Bruno event here, which are two species that key out down this way.
There's.
Yeah, there's there's one of these that has a slightly longer face and this one is not as easy to eyeball.
You have to do some measurements to separate those ones.

Jason Gibbs 27:25
But so yeah, these are long faced ones that occur in the West.
But if if you kind of look at their the for me, the shape of the face is slightly different.
So if you kind of compare the the face shape and 42 versus the figure 43, which kind of you know scroll past.
They're not the same and and this is actually, I think this is a pretty decent version of the the leukoma succeded pilosum Claudius.
But as good as you can get static image for that we talked about last month.
Anyway.

Droege, Sam 28:05
OK.
So we go back to the here.

Joel Gardner 28:12
Uh, yeah.
So this one is a pretty straightforward, just the metal zone alterego, metallic blue green.
Or are they not so that I don't think most people have trouble with that unless you have like, dirty UV specimens?
So if everyone.

Droege, Sam 28:36
Which do you want to go to?

Joel Gardner 28:39
Uh, so the pilosum groups species are all metallic, so they are all go to 79.
Alright, so OK, then we get to the meat of the sternum.
Punctuate or rugulose again, so we kind of already covered that when we were separating proof punk. Chatham.
So yeah, the pilosum groups decimates all have reylos sculpture slow go to 81.
Alright, here we get.
This is the pilosum group right now.
The 81 is where it starts, so here's where we separate out pilosum.
That's probably the easiest one to recognize because it has this related stive clypeus.
And yeah, there is a good figure in the key.
But to be also we we showed a specimen last week to which kind of showed that clypeus should be.
We need to revisit this should be showing another one.

Droege, Sam 29:52
Well, here it is.
Are you seeing the your specimen in the paper here?
See is pilosum.

Joel Gardner 29:58
Yep.

Droege, Sam 30:01
So those are the squared off end of the clip, Pius versus angled.
And you have a little question mark our user and I are are working on the bees of Maryland and comparing notes between areas.
And he finds that Pilosum is in Missouri, a sand specialist.
Like he would say that's a sand specialist and you know we have pretty tight definition of that in Maryland.
I see them in a broader range of habitats than simply sand.
What?
What do you guys feel about that?
They're really common.

Joel Gardner 30:45
I've certainly seen them from a lot of different locations, not all of which have sand that I know about.
They do tend to show up a lot in sandy areas, like if you go to a sandy area, you're very likely to find these, but I've seen them other places too, so it seems like they like sand, but they're not obligates.

Droege, Sam 31:06
You can't.
All right.
It's interesting.

Joel Gardner 31:14
Thank.

Droege, Sam 31:14
Yeah, it's my experience.

Jason Gibbs 31:16
I would like to know if I can.
Wanna show?
There's a supplementary character that I like for pilosum versus the other two, which is not here, McKee.

Droege, Sam 31:27
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 31:29
But if you ever have a special with the head knocked off, it's good.
Check.

Droege, Sam 31:35
Are you gonna show it to us?

Jason Gibbs 31:35
Umm, I'm gonna try to show it to you.
Although the lighting is not perfect yet, umm, with the focus is not perfect.

Joel Gardner 31:42
Ohh yeah yeah, this is good to cover.

Jason Gibbs 31:45
So.
And I think it's a little flip, but if you look at the first tergum, umm, there's a little patch right here kind of sub medially that is less punk tape than the other parts of the turbo.

Droege, Sam 31:58
Thank.

Jason Gibbs 32:04
So yeah, so this is the midline and just a little Gray here.
It's kind of a just before this is apical impressed area.
That's kind of reddish right there.
There's less punctures in pilots and it's almost completely absent void of microscope.
Sure, you might see a little bit if you look really closely, you might see a few little hints of lines, but it's pretty smooth and shiny, whereas in Luther, commas and Stephane it's like unambiguously microscope you and that.

Droege, Sam 32:36
What about the pitting in those other two?

Jason Gibbs 32:40
Ohh.

Droege, Sam 32:42
Saying.

Jason Gibbs 32:43
Yeah, I don't have any thoughts.

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Jason Gibbs 32:46
Uh, no, no distinctive differences that I can think of where I've noticed.
Umm yeah.
So if you look right there and you see, I think it's one of those things where I wouldn't, if you see if you're in Pilosum area and you see the distinctive head and you see some microculture there, don't worry about it.
Umm, but it's almost always smooth.

Droege, Sam 33:13
Yet good.

Jason Gibbs 33:14
So it's the secondary connection.

Droege, Sam 33:16
We have a secret character that only the people who are on this talk will ever know.

Jason Gibbs 33:22
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 33:24
Thanks Jason.

Joel Gardner 33:29
Yeah, zed.
And it's I've.
It seems to me that it's not just there like pilosum.
His has a shinier metasoma in general.
No, that might be the easiest place to see it.

Droege, Sam 33:48
Boom.
All right.
Are we moving to non parallel margins now?

Jason Gibbs 33:58
Sure.

Joel Gardner 34:01
Yeah.
So how's everyone feel about pilosum?
You feel like you could identify that be if you found it in your collection.

Droege, Sam 34:14
Let me ask uh a additional question that sometimes is listed within its descriptions, which is the gold hairs versus white hairs.
What do you think?

Jason Gibbs 34:29
Right.
I think there is like it's regionally different.
Maybe like I think the the piloswine we get here in Manitoba are less distinctly yellow and see maybe in the sort of mid kind of East Coast range, I guess one to the pilosum classic.
Umm.

Droege, Sam 34:50
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 34:51
And then and then a few people have sent me, I think with some of the people who were doing work on some of the islands off the East Coast, some of their specimens were quite white.

Joel Gardner 34:55
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 35:01
Yeah, this is my impression is that here in the mid Atlantic, so South of the the island people that a lot of the pyrocms you know conform lot of golden hair kind of things but of a quite a number are also almost completely white.

Jason Gibbs 35:02
And.

Droege, Sam 35:21
You're like ohh am I looking at with commas here and then you're looking at the bill.
I would call it and I'm like, no, those are those are definitely parallel sided, but it's white.

Jason Gibbs 35:31
Yep.

Droege, Sam 35:33
So OK, just clarifying because it's, you know, it's even given the name by whoever comes up with the common names and things.
And I naturalist says like golden haired blah blah blah so.

Joel Gardner 35:46
Ohh yeah, like Lugo colmus.
That name literally means Whitehead.
That's what it means in Latin.

Droege, Sam 35:52
Uh-huh.

Joel Gardner 35:57
But it is variable.

Droege, Sam 35:57
OK.
Have you seen Luke Acomas with golden hair though, or yellowish hair?

Joel Gardner 36:00
And the.
That's.

Droege, Sam 36:06
Do you see the opposite at all?

Joel Gardner 36:06
They were like usually.

Jason Gibbs 36:06
OK.

Joel Gardner 36:08
Uh, yeah, I've seen a lot of new code comes with the golden hairs.

Droege, Sam 36:12
OK, scratch that one.
But add the secret character.

Joel Gardner 36:16
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 36:20
I mean, when you get these really, like tylosin classic when you get this like the you know it you can sometimes just look at the skew domains know that that's gonna be a philosopher and they're like really.

Droege, Sam 36:31
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 36:35
They just have a different 5, but yeah.

Droege, Sam 36:39
OK.
So cecina penny.

Joel Gardner 36:45
All right.
Yeah.
So this is a.
This is the tricky one.
This is the trickiest pair even.
We are not super confident separating these two species.
The best character that I've found is that section of Penny has a slightly longer face, but it's not.
It's not so significant that you can just eyeball it.
It's something you have to measure, umm.
And yeah, it says Rocky Mountains and Midwest and the key, but.
We're not actually confident that it is in the Midwest or if those are all new code, Thomas, but it's definitely it's definitely a Rocky Mountain species.
I found a few specimens.
A few other specimens from Colorado, and I think I found some from northern New Mexico.
Umm that I that I'm pretty confident they'll look homeless, so it's definitely in the Rocky Mountains.
And yeah, if you scroll up to that figure where it compares the heads, we don't have any.
At least I don't have any subset any.
Maybe Jason does, but this is the this is the type that actually that that middle image 43 B that's the the face of the type of section of penny.
And if you compare it to a, you can see that it is slightly longer.

Jason Gibbs 38:17
And I always think that the the end of the clypeus, it's starting to head down the tylosin path.
It's not quite there, but.
Yeah, it's not.

Joel Gardner 38:32
Ohh right, yeah.

Jason Gibbs 38:34
But yeah when you look at them side by side that they're not quite the same and it does like the type and the specimens that you have that you pull that are do you have the the kind of micro sculpture that isoma as well so.
Yeah.
So that the type of nucleus is main, the type of subsequently as Colorado and then pilosum I think is probably just the United States like.

Droege, Sam 39:01
Mm-hmm.
What about integument color?

Jason Gibbs 39:03
But.

Droege, Sam 39:06
I have a vibe from the literature, but I'm really don't think I've ever actually seen this a single penny that it should be blue, but is that not also valid to think about?

Joel Gardner 39:20
Well, the the type is.
It's not as golden as like a lot of like, it's not as golden as this picture of pilosum on on the right, but it's it's not really what I would call glue.

Droege, Sam 39:37
OK, that's good to know.

Joel Gardner 39:38
And then it's definitely.
I've definitely seen there's some weird pilosum like as you go further.
West Umm, there's some weird pilosum once you get into the Rocky Mountains, there's some weird pilosum.
The Co occur with suction attendee and those can be like really blue.

Droege, Sam 39:58
Yeah, in the Badlands, I would see every once in a while.
A very blue pilosum that I wanted desperately to call succinic penny.
But now I think probably we're not.

Jason Gibbs 40:13
I feel like in that sort of like the Great Plains area, there's a lot of blue dialectics with very pale wings.

Joel Gardner 40:14
Absolutely.

Droege, Sam 40:20
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 40:21
And it you know, I I don't know why exactly what that's an adaptation for, but it could be that some of the pilots and out here are just.
Going down that path.

Droege, Sam 40:33
Right.

Joel Gardner 40:33
OK.

Droege, Sam 40:33
We had two umm, we had tons of Alba, penny, tons of semi cerulean.

Joel Gardner 40:33
Are we?

Droege, Sam 40:40
There all, all which are in that white wing and then also lots of pruinose some white wing, bright blue metallic, very white haired things.

Joel Gardner 40:55
Yeah.
And we have a question in the are you a request in the chat, uh, this to show how to measure the length of the Super Clypeal area, which is a.

Droege, Sam 41:00
Thank you.

Joel Gardner 41:09
Yeah, that's a good question.
Is that that is also used in this in this couplet to separate it out section and penny.

Droege, Sam 41:19
You want to show it on a specimen, or do you wanna show it off this picture or what?

Joel Gardner 41:26
Ah, I can show it off the.

Droege, Sam 41:28
It's.

Joel Gardner 41:33
After the picture is probably easiest so.

Droege, Sam 41:38
OK.

Joel Gardner 41:40
Do you feel confident showing that Sam, or should I share my screen?

Droege, Sam 41:44
Umm, I think so.
I mean this one is very difficult to see the Clippy, old Super Clypeal margin.
We could use this leucoma as here as an example, so here's the bottom I'm always actually this will be interesting.

Joel Gardner 41:51
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 41:57
I'm always confused what counts as the top of the Super Clipper area.
So, bottom clear, here's that line right there.
Where where are we?
Where is the top.

Joel Gardner 42:11
Well, the bottom is not quite that clear, because it's often slightly curved.
So the top of the Clippers will be sort of convex.

Droege, Sam 42:18
Umm.

Joel Gardner 42:22
It will be curving up, so if you measure it from the middle of be differ, measure it from the edges.
So we measure it basically from the tentorial pits.
So that, Yep, that that juncture where the sides of the Super Colleyville area meet the clypeus and it's like this 3 way juncture.

Droege, Sam 42:32
Over here.
Umm.

Joel Gardner 42:41
We measure it from there up to the lower margin of the antenna socket.

Droege, Sam 42:49
Got it.
Is that obvious?
For most people, I can maybe increase the magnification of this.
Some uh document a little bit hopefully.
Umm view zoom zoom to.
That's an important point.

Joel Gardner 43:10
But.

Droege, Sam 43:11
So tentorial pit area just really there is a pit, but it's hard to see it's this, it's this junction.
Here's a suture line.
Here's a suture line.
Here's a suture line.
The meeting from there and then you're doing the closest point to the fossa and the corona around it, I guess to the antenna.

Joel Gardner 43:31
Right.

Droege, Sam 43:33
So that to that is the length, and the width is tutorial pit to tentorial pit.

Joel Gardner 43:39
Yep.

Droege, Sam 43:41
Umm, OK, regardless of curve.

Joel Gardner 43:46
Regardless of the curve, just great distance from a juncture juncture.

Droege, Sam 43:47
You straight across.
Or you can see this a little bit better now here.
So here's so this would be roughly it's a little hard to see, but I would say roughly about there is a tentorial pit.
And so we have there to there.
So theoretically this is longer, right?
So the C Ellen's question?

Joel Gardner 44:14
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 44:16
Ellen has a question that is supposed to be good.
It's measure it following the 7:10 or future or perpendicular to the horizontal at that that that tutorial fit.

Joel Gardner 44:27
I did you it perpendicular to the horizontal.
Or straight line from the Tentorial pitch up to the bottom of the antenna socket is probably a better way to to put it.
As the sub and channel suture kind of like tapers off towards the top and it's kind of hard to follow.

Droege, Sam 44:50
We can look at.

Joel Gardner 45:00
That kind of hard to judge where the end point of that is.

Droege, Sam 45:05
Yep.
The pits?
Pretty obvious, maybe not so much in these pictures, but when you get in a microscope, you know it's a hollow.
It's got shadow associated with it, so those those are good.
Those are good because often the this edge here this line sort of disappears, particularly if there's hair.
Alright, so shorter longer in between.

Joel Gardner 45:45
Uh, for I love them.

Jason Gibbs 45:45
Drinks.

Droege, Sam 45:47
Did I express that right?

Joel Gardner 45:52
Sorry, what were you asking?

Droege, Sam 45:54
I'm just not go ahead, Jason.

Jason Gibbs 45:54
I just. You're 5.
You're you're trying to put pilosum in that camp.
I mean, I I don't think we worry too much about pilosum cause you can recognize it and other things.

Droege, Sam 46:03
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 46:03
So I don't know if we've ever measured it directly in comparison with that way.

Droege, Sam 46:06
OK.

Jason Gibbs 46:08
Umm, that was just gonna say that unless you start getting out into the Alvarado Great Plains.
Probably sucks.
A penny doesn't need to be on your radar.
If you're so, if you are east of the Mississippi, I'll just worry about pilots and the famous.
And is such a penny is something that probably, gradually, eventually Joel and I will figure out.
And then we'll let everybody know what type of the deals.

Droege, Sam 46:36
Yeah, maybe there are a bunch of westerners on these talks sometimes.

Jason Gibbs 46:41
Yeah, chips.

Droege, Sam 46:41
So you'll have to dial back in over the years.

Jason Gibbs 46:44
And that and and and most of these, these things don't seem to make it in like these are not what I consider like West Coast, Great Basin species, uh.

Joel Gardner 46:55
Fixed it speaking.
Yeah.
Yeah, Bruno, Sam is very common in the West, but the others are kind of restricted to the east.

Jason Gibbs 47:01
Yeah.
Yeah, I was in a while.

Joel Gardner 47:06
Everything.

Jason Gibbs 47:06
Someone from like Washington or something will send me a a bee that is like a very distinctively like Chris Onii or Zephyrus, and so some things do creep across.
But yet.

Droege, Sam 47:17
Yeah.
And vice versa.
So you recall the semi cerulean that showed up in Maryland, it's three places and then also, yeah.

Jason Gibbs 47:23
Which it took me a long time to convince me that that was true.
I certainly didn't believe it at first, but I don't know. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 47:28
Yeah.
And then and I mean some of those specimens came before I even went out West.

Jason Gibbs 47:34
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 47:34
Just just to alleviate the thought and then and then pruinose sum is this kind of thing that I didn't quite believe was that eastern and then it just shows up in sort of Prairie like environments which can be agricultural, but it's, you know a super open thing, but sometimes it can be lawn ish even and alpha penny too shows up.

Jason Gibbs 47:37
I believe I believe everyone now, yeah.

Droege, Sam 48:04
All right, so where are we here?
Do we want to umm.
Take this any further.

Joel Gardner 48:08
Uh, yeah, we are.
We basically got to the end of the pilosum group in the Canada Key.
Uh, we could talk about floridanum now that one is not in the Canada key because it doesn't occur in Canada, which also kind of gets into it question that was in chat a little earlier about the differences between this he and the eastern US1 and how much overlap there is and whether or not you can use one for the other.

Droege, Sam 48:21
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 48:39
Umm.
So yeah, there there are quite a few species that occur in the eastern US that don't occur in Canada.
They're too far South.
Umm Floridanum is one of them, so if you're like, if you're like in the northeast of the US, Umm, you can probably use the Canada key with no problems.
I down once you get down to like.

Droege, Sam 49:10
Maryland.

Joel Gardner 49:10
Maryland's New Jersey are any further South than that.
That then you probably want to use the eastern US.
Umm so that what the candidate he adds.
On top is a it there's there are new species that were discovered in Canada that we had to add into this key.
There are some new mails that were described who but most of them are Western.
They don't occur in the east, so the eastern US key is basically it's, it's still good.

Jason Gibbs 49:47
I'm gonna show.

Droege, Sam 49:48
So I was saying South Dakota.

Jason Gibbs 49:49
Lower down.

Droege, Sam 49:53
West N can our planes area colleagues feel confident with the keys?

Joel Gardner 49:56
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 50:02
Well, it's all of Canada.
So would include the mountains.
They're just a little sketchy on a couple species, right?

Jason Gibbs 50:09
Yeah.
And maybe some things that get into South Dakota that wouldn't make it all the way to Canada.

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Jason Gibbs 50:13
But for the most part, I think you know the the Great Plains and the mountains were kind of corridors and things kind of run all the way up.
So things that occur in like they were described from Boulder, Co you find them like sometimes all the way up to the Yukon and then you know where I am in Manitoba and then we get things that could occur in like Texas.
So there's a lot of things that go all the way up and down, so it should be reasonably didn't.

Joel Gardner 50:44
Yeah, basically like the further away you are from the Canadian border, the more caution you should use when using that key.
So if you try to key out AB and you can't figure it out and it doesn't seem to match anything then umm yeah, the further away you are, the more likely it is.
That's just a species that's not included.

Droege, Sam 51:09
So you can the way a lot of these things work is you use multiple keys so you can use the Eastern dialect disk key.
You can use discover life.
You can use the Canada one and a lot of times it's a triangulation thing using the combination of slightly different.
Ways of speaking about differences in identifying things will help you, because one approach may make more sense to you than another.
Remember, each of these is written by a different person, and that person has their way of thinking about specimens and describing them to you, because they already know the specimens, right?
So it's notes to myself that hopefully are helpful to you.
So not always.
Think about using several sources if you're struggling.

Jason Gibbs 52:04
And you're allowed to ask for help.

Droege, Sam 52:07
There you go.

Jason Gibbs 52:08
Yeah, don't be shy the.
I I put up floridanum up here.
This.
That's what the the label on the specimen said, and one of the distinguishing features from that from that classic pilosum is just this, the micro sculpture of the manifold node, and that's approval triangle.
It's the the rugosity it barely raised above the background level.

Joel Gardner 52:33
OK.

Jason Gibbs 52:38
Kind of quite.
They're sculpture is really kind of granular in appearance.
It tends to be less hairy on the metasoma as well.
Yeah, that's.
And this is a this was used to be a subspecies of pyrosome.

Droege, Sam 52:53
It's.

Jason Gibbs 52:55
That was, you know, floridanum from Florida.
Like supposed to be really southern, but we do occasionally find specimens that have this kind of, uh, characteristics all the way up into the the Midwest.

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Droege, Sam 53:12
Yeah, we have them regularly in Maryland.

Jason Gibbs 53:12
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 53:14
It is definitely a sand specialist.
From what both Mike and my experiences are, and I think in the the Great Lakes, the locations for the species which are scattered are also in the big sand deposits in the centers of Michigan, Wisconsin.

Jason Gibbs 53:35
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 53:35
How about elsewhere?
Right it is.
It's it's a.
It's a little bit tricky because the Pilosum and Luc commas and and that crowd have pretty messy striations there.
So that, but there's patterning, there's a patterning of linearity, let's call it to their properties.
MMS and Floridanum is almost completely absent of anything.
It's just a bunch of bumps and then I always find that there the junction between the umm, the dorsal triangle area and the rear face where it slopes down looks different.
I can't can't give you why, but it's like there's a vibe as, as Jason says, to umm, it's the backside.
So it is.
It is a little tough and I don't know if there's any anything else that separates them out.

Jason Gibbs 54:34
I mean, if you look at so I'm we will you know how well focused this is, but that's that's you're kind of vibe of the podium to the dorsal surface.

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Droege, Sam 54:46
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 54:47
And then, but if you look at it, this is the metasoma.
It's not that hairy, you know.
It's not.
It's not something you would name pilosum.

Droege, Sam 54:57
Yep.

Jason Gibbs 55:00
It tends to be less hairy than I was in classic.

Joel Gardner 55:01
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 55:03
Which is is still pretty hairy, but in comparison to pilosum, which would have T3 almost completely covered in hairs, it's less now.

Jason Gibbs 55:12
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 55:13
What about your secret spot?

Jason Gibbs 55:16
Uh, I think it's smooth, if I'm not mistaken.

Droege, Sam 55:17
Cheese.

Jason Gibbs 55:20
So I think it's more pyrosomes.

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Jason Gibbs 55:25
I know if I can then this into your view that don't actually see it.
My recollection is that it's smooth, but I can't.

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Droege, Sam 55:43
OK.

Jason Gibbs 55:43
It's it's the lighting is not good enough on this, but the scope.

Droege, Sam 55:46
Not behaving.
Crazy app.

Jason Gibbs 55:57
But you would be kind of looking right around here, right?
This kind of spot right down here is kind of where you're looking like sculpturing.

Droege, Sam 56:10
Tracy is making the connection to ask if the podium of Floridanum.

Jason Gibbs 56:10
In this life looks fancy.

Droege, Sam 56:14
Sort of looks like the podium of collective confusion.
Did you hear that Tracy is asking?

Joel Gardner 56:20
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 56:23
Confusus proposed Yum versus Floridanum propositum.

Jason Gibbs 56:27
I've never made that connection.

Joel Gardner 56:30
So hello this it's maybe, I don't know, it's it's maybe kind of similar in like the pattern of the of the bridges, but Florida and then there'll be a lot weaker.

Droege, Sam 56:30
Yeah, and.

Jason Gibbs 56:31
If think so.

Joel Gardner 56:45
So hope just confuses while it has like kind of like a shiny purpose Yum and has definite raised ridges on it that are kind of like confused all over the place.
But if you look at like Florida and you can see it's like definitely dull and the ridges aren't really distinct.

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Joel Gardner 57:04
They're kind of blended into the underlying microscope, sure.
So it's it's much, much more weakly sculpture to so they're not.

Droege, Sam 57:12
It's probably more like Electus tripartite him.
Which has a really different podium.
Well, not really different.
We're in that same vaguely different, but more.
Uniformly bumpy than patterned compared to confuses.

Joel Gardner 57:29
Yeah.
Yeah, even though I just try for China says definite parallel ridges on it.
So it's it's still not except for you like like floridanum.
But that is a good point.
Umm.
If you do have a collect, just confuse this and you don't notice that it's all like this and you try to get out as a dial.
Like just.
You'll probably run it to the pilosum group, so you you you probably run to boarding number you hook homus or something.

Droege, Sam 57:58
Umm yeah.

Jason Gibbs 58:02
It the males, in particular, people have historically gotten mistaken.
Could you?
Can't see the wing venation character for lastic blossom?
Very well, and except for the more yellow legs and the larger size of it both, this confuses.
They do share a lot of the features of the files, so they kind of go both ways, so check your pilosum mails and health.
This confuses mails.

Joel Gardner 58:29
Yeah, there's a if in doubt, there's actually a the fun Limerick you can use to remember the difference between elect just and dialect.
Just so you can, you can remember I once had a strange dialect, as I thought Gibbs was wrong.
Where he tricked us.
But the tergal pubescence was ethically dense.
It was just a confusing hallitus.

Droege, Sam 58:50
No, there you go.
You heard it here.

Joel Gardner 58:55
Yeah, look at the Tergal 2 vestments on the on the apex of the tergites.

Droege, Sam 59:03
We are in definitely a nerd class here.

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Jason Gibbs 59:09
I think we're kind of short on time, but if anyone has any last questions.

Droege, Sam 59:09
Yeah.
Yeah, we're yeah, alright.
We're gonna wrap it up, but this is what we can talk offline.
If you would love to come back, this is we.
The service is invaluable.
I it's.
So are there like let me know in the chat or email if there's another group that you'd like to prioritize within the key or if we could, if you want to, just kind of go back to the beginning and work work through, if I could vote, I would say that whole Admiral Adam Versaterm Palladium, trigeminal him, uh Vito, Quad fecta is something that really blows people's minds.

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Joel Gardner 59:34
Yes.

Droege, Sam 59:50
You just wanna jump right into the the hellish species right away.
Yeah, OK why not?

Jason Gibbs 59:57
Trying to put up a Florida Adam face first, the person in the chat you asked and the answer is, yeah, they do kind of look like a pilots in the face.
So I can get the.

Droege, Sam 1:00:05
They.
You see, it's got some angle there.

Jason Gibbs 1:00:12
No, not that might not have the angle quite right.
It's not surgically.
I'm looking through 1 ocular and trying to get it to match the other oculars.

Droege, Sam 1:00:26
Umm.
Thank you everyone.
Deeply appreciate it.
Yeah, this is great.

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Droege, Sam 1:00:41
I'm gonna stop the recording, but if anybody needs to keep chatting, that's available to you for a couple more minutes.

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