93_Triepeolus females part 1_Aug 9 2023

August 9, 2023, 5:00PM

Maffei, Clare J 0:04
Started at one I guess.

Droege, Sam 0:06
OK.

Maffei, Clare J 0:06
And yeah, you can have some intro time.

Droege, Sam 0:11
Yep.
OK.
So today we're gonna talk about female tribulus.
We're using a Discover life guide as the basis we will bring up that much of the discover life material in there is actually from Molly, right Meyers revision of Tribulus, which occurred a number of years ago now but had wonderful illustrations and lots of detail.
And I'm gonna share my screen.

Matt Carlson joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 0:38
And I believe that Claire, did you send out a PDF of that revision to everybody or a link?

Maffei, Clare J 0:46
I sure did.

Droege, Sam 0:47
OK, so and if you look at that, the guy, the her guide works well, but it's a hang on.
Let me just share my window.
It has the issue that it covers all of North America and Central America at once.
So you have to flow through a lot of things, which is fine, and it people like dichotomous keys.
It's basically the same information are presented in a dichotomous fashion rather than on discovery life in a non dichotomous.
So people don't have that key handy.
Here's the key to females of north and Central America from Mali.
Really, really well done.
Revision and lots of good information within the species accounts.

Chris Kreussling (Flatbush Gardener, he/they) (Guest) joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:29
All which we've imported, or at least the eastern ones we've imported into discover life too.
So you can read them there.
Also, candy and lots of pictures, so I'm not gonna use Molly's guide because we'd have to move through.
Through like if you look on this first page here, many of these are Western species.
That or super uncommon like Balty Addis that we don't have.
So what we'll do today is jump over here to the Discover life guides.
And we'll go here to the start and we'll cover a lot of the characters, and then we'll get into some species pairs.
But mostly it's an introduction to how to think and look at tribulus females, which are a little bit different from many of the things that we talked about before.

Fromenthal, Emily (Contractor) joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 2:22
So I think most of you are aware of how to use Discover life guides.
I'll point out that the green numbers here again indicate how many in this case, female tribulus because this guy does only two tries.
This female are scored for that character, so Nebraska, 16, Massachusetts 11 and so forth.
And that's gonna be useful when you look at the characters and sort of install in your mind that you, if you see an unusual character that's gonna be very helpful because it'll eliminate most of the others right away.
So paying attention to what the little green numbers are are gonna be helpful as you go through these kinds of things because when you see, for example, that there are no scutum hair bands at all, that really narrows it down to a small number or you have this fuzzy, indistinct one.
We're going to talk about these.
So I just wanted to point out these things.
So starting with #2 here in the Discover Life system, where confronted with color, so color in tribulus and many other species where you have something that is reddish, so that can be an orange and amber a bright red it on a piece of the anatomy of the bee often is a little problematic.
So if it's completely black to brown, that's solid, right?
There's nothing there but a lot of times it's not completely red, orange or amber.
You have and it says here primary integument color but sometimes you have a little a bit of red or you'd be like I'm not 100% sure if that's primarily red or primarily black.
So in that case you could score them from both, but that doesn't really do anything because you're basically saying it could be either of these.
That means everything's gonna stay the same.
You could pick one or the other.
That is not the right approach, because now you're guessing.
So if you're in that state where it's like, ah, I could go either way on that, then there is a strong likelihood that whatever that species is was probably scored for both two and.
But the the best approach is don't use the key for.
Don't use this character if there's ambiguity in in color.
Often brings with it ambiguity because a lot of times you get a partially red or reddish kind of thing going on.
So if we look here, so the these are really nice characters because they're pretty discreet.
You look at the pronotal lobe as if black or brown, or primarily black or brown or primarily red, orange or amber.
If it's ambiguous, skip it.
Same thing here.
We're X primary and taking in color of tegula.
So again, in many cases it's pretty darn obvious you do have these in between.
Again, this is a character to skip if you're not sure what the color could be classified as, because there's too much of a mix and then we get.
But the color is so useful, we've put them near the top right, cause it helps you split things out pretty quickly.
So here again, legs integument color and it's saying to ignore the tarsal segments, the coxy or spines.
And you have now a little bit more choice because we allow for some ambiguity.
So we have the much rarer case.
The only 12 entirely indistinctly red or orange some really are all red, and that's when you see something like that.
Usually that's obvious, and usually that's going to help you narrow down your list quite a bit, and then you have some entirely brown to black and then a bunch of them have a mix of colors.
But you can see by the split between these that it's quite umm evenly, evenly had.
So I must have so I have something listed as only seven I must have.
I'm sorry I'm going through here.
You know what?
I'll just restart the whole thing, so I had something scored in there.
There's 29 species involved in this particular key, so when we look at these, you can see there is overlap.
131912 does not add up to 29 and some are scored for more than one thing as we would want to be conservative.
So now we get to another useful character is like.
What's going on in the Skydome?
So try apius as a class has lots and lots of oppressed hairs.
Let me just open up a just a nice picture of a treacherous.
So you can see these it same thing would be true of EPS and EPS aloides that group of bees, whatever the Super classification of those are all have these bandings of oppressed white hair.
So by oppressed, I mean they're lying down.
They're prone and they're actually made up of many, many reached hairs that make them.
I call them little fat hairs, so let me just.
This fall, back to our pictures are often better than using the microscope.
So simply because they.
They have more detail, so if we look at these kinds of things, this is a little ragged and rough here, but these are the kinds of hairs that we're looking at.
Umm which are very small fat and that they're wide because they're.
If you actually looked even closer, you'd see that they're they're branched in many ways, and they're lying down on the integument, and they form these lovely bandings of hair.
So just the vibe from these will tell you that you're looking at tribulus and then the patterns of those hairs are often extremely useful in determining species.
So here, for example, we're looking at T2, we'll come back to this here, this arm coming up, the angle of that arm is different in different species groups.
The length of and width of that bare spot on T1 compared to the sides is often quite different.
So let's jump back guide and here we go.
So here what we're looking at is we're looking at the thorax and we're asking what's going on on the thorax with the.
The bands of white hairs that are subparallel so is that subparallel.
Is that right?
So they're parallel now.
They're they are parallel to one another, I guess sub median.
So here's a median line.
So they're either side, they're almost always in that area.
And then there's a couple states.
One.
Are they completely absent?
Note, sometimes you have specimens that are goopy, particularly if you have collected them in a kill jar, or that has lots of moisture in it, or you have collected them in a solution of propylene glycol and not and in both cases not clean them well afterwards.
So those white oppressed lines will tune.
Dark has all hairs do if they're matted and covered with goo, and then it can look like they're not there.
So be careful.
Usually you can't figure it out.
You can see that ohh if I'm looking here carefully.
I do have white bands.
They're just been distorted by bad processing, would say so in.
So you have the absence.
That's one set of species.
You have two bars here that are just floating in space, so they're not connected to white hair along the edges.
So let's see if we can drill in here at least a little bit fuzzier at this level, but let's let's, uh critique what's going on here.
So this area right here looks like a white band that they might be connected to, but it's actually not part of the skew them.
So the skewed him boundary is literally right there at that hard dark light boundary.
This is the pro nodal collar, so this is part of the Pro Nodum big thing that sticks the head sticks into and it's almost always got white hairs across it.
But we're not talking about, we're talking about the Skydome.
So it may look like these white bands connect to a big white bar on the scutum but they don't because that white bar is not on the skewed EM so that that's the state of two white bars but without a any kind of connection to another set of white on the scutum.
So here is the uh, the the presentation of two white bars.
But they're connected to, which could go all the way across in some species, but they're connected to white hairs on the skew.
Done.
You can see the white hairs all throughout here and take a look at that number 10.
It's not a super common character.
Neither is the absence, and also when we get to this last one, there's only three.
Most of them have a pair of white bars that are just floating in space.
Almost all of them, as a matter of fact, and there's lots of of overlap between some of these categories.
So this is the one where there's a connection and then the last one is where it's really difficult to tell whether you have a connection or not.
The two that come to mind here are are a Sevastova specialist, so most triathletes are melissodes specialists.
So Sevastova as Don, who?
I'm not sure he's on the line here, recently told us, and according to a usera revision, or at least molecular investigation of use or SASTRA is now, I believe, considered to be part of.
Well, I shouldn't say.
Is it part of Melissodes or userra?
But it kind of has disappeared, which makes me.
A little leery about a lot of these molecular things because they're now crossing over each other in terms of their advice as to what is and isn't a genius or a subgenus, and things along that line.
The identification stream is still going to be the same to the species level, but we have some name shenanigans going on and well, it'll stabilize at some point anyway this, yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 13:22
But Sam question like does this like a point on that like I mean, but so our characters will stay the same, but we're gonna have to rewrite whole guides.
And like you know, find new ways to squeeze these in to other dichotomous situations.

Droege, Sam 13:39
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 13:39
If yeah, like it's not, it's not.

Droege, Sam 13:40
Well, yes and well.

Maffei, Clare J 13:41
It's not gonna be like we're gonna still have the same things that we can do, though, to look at them.

Droege, Sam 13:46
Yeah.
So there's a couple ways.
One would be, let's say we're dealing with SASTRA and it's now considered to be melissodes.
We could have a guide to this faster still.
First of all, I haven't looked into it, so I don't even know if all the sevaster are going there or not.
But let's just say all the sevaster are now considered to be melissodes, so we could add them to the melissodes key.
Or we could say melissodes sevaster group and basically just keep them in their own little key for now.
But we will have to do that, but we also wait until we see what John Asher does, because sometimes he disagrees and doesn't change.

Eugene Scarpulla joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 14:27
Make the changes to the genius level, so we go with John because we consider him to be the authority we follow and we don't want to have to be making decisions ourselves on taxonomy and names.
We just use his convention and frankly, there is sometimes not a right or wrong here.
It's just we're following a particular person's convention on taxonomic names, and usually that means at the upper level.
So no, I wish it were like rock solid, but I I think this will expect more of this as more and more molecular work gets done.
In any case, this group, so most of these triplets are nest parasites on melissodes, but a number of them kind of sneak around.
So this one is a sevastova.
I think that's concave us.
And then the famous pepper napus umm parasite is Renegades and it also has this sort of indistinct pattern.
It's it will get to it.
It looks like a boat anchor is that float anchor or is it some I can't remember?
I think boat anchor was a description, but someone else has some crazy has some other like the Ukrainian national flag or something, but we'll.
Ah, what's backtrack OK.
So those are good characters.
Separates things out.
If you have things that are not just floating single bars, then you probably can eliminate quite a few species that way.
Then we get to more shape of the oppressed hair patterns.
In this case, we're going to T1, so the first tergite on the abdomen here, and we're looking at the.
Umm.
Shape of the internal dark area.
That's formed.
Sometimes these come together, sometimes these don't come together.
In other words, sometimes there's a gap there, sometimes there's not a gap there, and we're asking the question as to whether the lateral I don't unlock that lateral is the right name.
But the the latitudinal that's probably better.
Latitudinal sides are parallel to one another or not, so here's 2 examples of not parallel.
This is roughly this one is roughly diamond shaped.
You can see here.
So that's not parallel.
This one is more hammer heads shaped.
Umm down here.
So again, that line has no parallel partner to it.
And then the other, so that's less common.
You see 10 and 25, so many of them could be classified as having parallel.
No boundaries I guess maybe would be the word to this dark internal edge.
Daria.
And so a choice there is will help narrow things down again.
And then the question is, well, what's the width of this area of this dark area compared to the width of the bands to eat on the lateral sides of white hairs?
So here narrow and pretty easy to describe.
Again, there's often overlap between these categories and any one species, but none of them might believe would go across all three categories.
So here is narrow.
So if you take a look at this one, clearly this dark area has a length or width and as you depending on your orientation of the dark area compared to the sides with the dark area being smaller, so it's narrower and then you have something that is roughly equal.

Ellen Lamborn (Guest) joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 18:23
So and you look at the numbers five and seven, so these are less common states, roughly equal is a tricky, tricky character.
That's why anything that's roughly equal is usually scored also for the things on either side, because nature doesn't deal with equal, right?
It's either a little bit bigger or a little bit smaller, so nothing is going to be exactly equal because the requirements for something being equal are very high.
In other words, you can't depart from that equalness.
But anyway, we have that category so that you can move to either side of it pretty freely.
And if you have something that's about equal, don't expect it to resolve a whole lot of things.
So if we go down to the next one, we get to these lateral swaths of pale hair on the lateral side.
So we talked about that when we were looking at the one picture.
So you're going to T2, so there's the boundary with T1.
That's T1 above.
T2 is here.
There's the boundary, the bottom.
This is a basal no.
This is a apical band of white hairs with a slight rim at the end of no hair.
So we're just talking about these white hairs.
And then if you look on the sides, this might kick up a little bit, but not significantly high.
So it basically is just a band and so there's no lateral sides, whatever.
So it says lateral swaths appeal hair absent.
OK.
And there's about 10 of them that could be scored that way.
Again, a lot of these things will have overlapping membership in a particular species.
Then the next one is that these hairs are round, square or obtuse.
So again, we're looking at what's so now there are lateral heads.
Oh, I can see them.
What's the angle between the apical band and this lateral band?
And if we are lucky, well, it doesn't matter because we're saying square of two.
So square would be 90 degrees as you can see here, just like a Carpenter square and obtuse would be this angle here would kick out like that, so it's greater than 90 degrees and so umm, if you have that, you would score it for their.
We've sadly don't have a weekly acute angle demonstrated, but it's defined by a set of degrees, so 60 to 80 degree angle and then but then we'll illustrate that here with the last one strongly acute.
In other words, you have the side bars of pale hairs actually curve back in, and so here is illustrating one that this one is roughly 45 degrees but 45 degrees or less.
So you have this strong recurving portion, not some kind of big bar sticking up here where it curves back and that's at a.
Umm.
Less than 45.
So again, usually a very good character every once in a while you have a goofy specimen.
You have to watch out for where these band this banding disappears.
OK, now we get to a feature that a few bees have, but tribulus is maybe the queen of pseudo pygidial areas.
So by pseudopodia area I'm talking about on the last segment of the female.
In this case, and in this case, the last segment of the female has this area right here.
That, and it's would be on every single one of the females that has modified hairs.
Presumably that has to do with, Umm, invading the nest of a nosodes and somehow doing something with their rear end to form where the egg is going to lay.
I don't someone can if someone knows put the details into the chat.
I'm.
I'm guessing that's what most superficial areas are at some structural element to the abdomen that allows them basically like a hand to pat down something.
So what you're looking at is the rim.
So here it's actually slightly concave and again pretty sweet character because it's not something that's usually that ambiguous unless you're right at is a concave or is it straight.
So here you have convex.
You can see here by that number, most things would fall into a convex category.
The concave, relatively rare only for species straight across would be the final one.
Again, what is straight is a question that needs to be asked, and so a lot of time so straight is obviously very tightly defined by geometry.
But umm, I found working with these specimens at indeed a lot of a lot of specimens can be clearly defined as being oops.
Darn it.
Uh, uh, hang on.
What did I do here?
Oh, there we go.
That can be pretty easily defined as directly straight across.
I'll point out that, as an aside, that pick has.
Changed.
We'll go to here the if we go to.
Umm, I don't know which one distinct is here that he's changed his picture system so that when you now click on it again you'd instead of getting the Super tiny little box you get a much bigger box with more details that you can take a look at.
So it's the the picture handling is better now than it was.
Thank you.
Pick so back to the game.
What we're looking at three different edges to the rim, and so you can classify those and you can see, again convex is the most common of all of these.
The next one, yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 24:41
Hey, Sam, how challenging, like when you actually are looking at this, like how hairy are those edges?
Like are you having to look at them at a specific angle to like see the edge of the integument versus hairiness? Yay.

Droege, Sam 24:51
Umm Nope.
Not challenging.
I have never.
I've always felt that it was very clear and not I didn't have to struggle.
So it's one of the better ones cause use the abdomen is not covered by a leg or a wing or something like that, or if it's a wing is all the way back there.
You can use a pin to move the wing and tuck it into the abdomen or something like that.
So I haven't found it to be a problem at all.
The next one is useful for some reason, I think cause Molly, I had think had these.
We don't have these characters, but what you do is you turn the specimen sideways and you're looking at S5.
So basically the the last of the segments and we'll pull this one up here in you're asking what's the shape on this segment, so straight.
So in other words, it would be straight across which you don't have illustrated here, strongly turned down where it's bent down like you know, it's curved over, it's not straight line and then weekly turned down weekly, you know, is a a A an ambiguous term.
So it is the kind of thing where if something is weekly turned down, it might also be very well be scored for straight and strongly turned down.
Also you can see here for example 2020 and six is gonna be 46 in my mathematical universe and there are only I can't remember 20 somethings species of tribulus.
So there's a lot of overlap here on these.
I have found it to be that useful character, but it does split out some things pretty well.
And here's a note that basically says that.
Umm.
Treacherous Mitch Shelley does not have a female, so it's in the guide, but you get rid of it by clicking on that, because otherwise it's just going to linger.
Although I think this states that have had Michelle are listed, so when you click on a state, Michelle might not be in there anymore simply because it's not known from that regionally.
Umm, I want to say it's probably a southeastern thing.
So Nebraska does not have much Chile listed simply because the mail records haven't been recorded from Nebraska.
So it's gone already.
You don't have to deal with it.
So, umm, those are the initial ones.
So we can now go to sort of the second tier because there's a lot of of characters in here to cover and then we'll cover a few of the more common species.
One thing that let's see, let's go back to menu and has on this one.
So, umm, one thing that is tricky is, umm, the.
So we'll talk about the pseudo pygidial area, because Molly has divided that into a variety of patterns that are often tricky to tell apart, or we should have.
Maybe Molly, come in and discuss that, but I'm not sure she's available these days.
So what I wanted to do is look at the thorax and the presence of ah of small.
Here's here we go.
This is useful, but it's something that was a little confusing because that's not a normal character.
So we're looking at the thorax and we're looking on the mes epistolarum.
So the that's the plate that is directly below the attachment of the front wings on the side of the B.
Ohh, and the primal color would be on one side and the net episternal would be on the other.
There is an illumination here, but it's not very good and I have a specimen on deck that I'll show you under the microscope.
So if you look the this is again not easy to see in this particular photograph.
So oops, I did again get rid of that.
In fact, I can't even move this one over, so we'll take it back to.
Here.
And I'll show you a picture on screen of a specimen that I have here.
So we're under microscope now.
We'll do this at in which higher resolution.
Oops.
Did I do that?
Right now it's F.
It'll give a second.
Here we go.
OK, so most species of tribulus this is dirty specimen, but still illustrates the point.
We'll have looking at the.
Mazeppa sternum here at curves.
There's pits all over it and uh it's curving.
This is the sternal area so the underneath of the bee this is the tegula here.
This is the whole segment.
This is Med episternal right there, and this is this doesn't have any noticeable hairs other than a pressed hair.
So there's a pressed hairs on there.
And then on in some species, including this one trapalis Donatus, there are there's still small, but they're scattered hairs that are noticeably longer than any any other hairs that are on here.
And there's, I think she has a couple categories.
One is long and she uses the acellus as a measurement tool rather than having to actually have a microscope that could physically measure what those distances are.
But these are noticeable hair sticking out from the side and maybe we'll play with the being here and they're not many and they're just scattered down and and they're only at the lower edges.
We're gonna try and move this specimen up a little bit.
Not up at the upper edges.
So up here, where the wing is attached, those hairs are absent.
Or maybe rubbed off.
And then as you go down, here's one.
There's one you start seeing these scattered hairs, and she has three categories, none lacking hairs greater than one lateral acellus.
And those are useful.
Let's see.
You can do this love.
All these specimens have been scored for all these characters.
We have only five things that are scored or are no that these are scored for those.
So only 5 have been scored for having these hairs that are greater than one to sell us.
So those would be relatively long.
And then there's a less standpoint 5, but still visible.
See how many are there is 14 scored for that.
So and you're again using the an acellular diameter as you're measuring tool and you have to make a decision.
Is it less than half or is it greater than half?
Or, you know, in many cases it's gonna be completely lacking.
If we go to lacking, you'll see many more species are scores.
So 21 out of what is it again 29 species, I think.
Oops, to get rid of that, the trick with has.
Yeah, 29 total is you can't leave any hanging check marks or it will do something and not what you think of it as.
So let's go here maybe to the top of the has menu and we'll look at some other kinds of characters and then try and see maybe under the microscope some examples.
So we talked about the the downturned ones and the parallel and the width and the swathe on the sides.
So this is a tricky one, so here abdomen pseudopodia, basal hair so so the pseudo pygidial area this is these.
Things are the pseudo pygidial areas.
You'll see another character here, further down, which is the shape.
So we can look at that a little bit because we'll be seeing these too.
So as the pseudopodia area basically around, So what you're looking at at the very bottom here is the edge of the sternites.
So this is the edge of the tergites and this is defining the pseudo pygidial area which is almost always just the dark spot in there and it's round and shaped and but also an acknowledgement that sometimes you have white hairs up there.
But these are these modified hairs.
This is the difficulty is it's sometimes it's difficult to figure out where the pseudopodia area starts and stops, but you're looking for something out of the norm for just integument.
As you can see on either side here and you have round ones.
Then you have these quadrilateral where you can, umm make make that shape out of the pseudomugil area.
There's actual triangular ones, and then a, and I don't have tanneri, although I have seen at least one specimen of it.
Umm, which is unusual species and then triangular.
So ohh sorry this was Oval shaped that I missed rather than round so you can see this is a little more judgment call things and so like a lot of time what I suggest doing is when you're not quite sure of a character is you play around click things on click things off and then leave them off because if you come to an answer.
Yeah.
Umm for a species without using ambiguous characters, your weight, you're way better off.
You could say, well, maybe I think this is the best one, but your tone of voice in that in your mind is like I'm not 100% sure, but I'm I think it's that one.
So the other approach is well.
It's either circular or Oval.
Then you would cover your bets and do them for both and you said like I know it's not triangular, narrow or rig or this one.
So this is fine.
It does eliminate whatever these are in there and you haven't guessed.
So we are guests adverse and using these guides.
So back to here.
This is another tricky one.
So what we're looking at is the suitable.
The dual area basal hair.
So we bring up one of these are in and probably more clear in malley's thing.
So we have different kinds of hairs and the basal area and the apical, whether they're always this, the paler color or not, is a little bit difficult.
Umm to tell, but the implications are that they are.
So these are white hairs and those are dark hairs.
We look here to to these, we have that there is a uniformity in, so she talks about density, reflectance and coarseness in the hair.
So you don't have two different types of hair, but there's so many little nuance.
Umm things going on in the size and shapes and patterns of hairs.
I found it often difficult to be absolutist about whether these things exist.
Again, here's Tanneri with its unique little strip of pseudopodia area.
But it's hard to define, so we'll leave that we can look at some of these things.
We can look at pseudopod judicial areas under the microscope, but I don't know that it's going to be that illuminating.
But of course, when you're in dichotomous keys, you can't just skip things.
You would have to follow more than one path, so again pays to do some study.
But I can tell you it's been tricky to determine those things like these shapes, things too, except that the extremes.
So now and this is probably something that will take a little time.
So we'll look at the sternites and let's see I I need to.
I'm not sure I left a no, I guess I didn't.
I'm hoping I didn't leave any check marks hiding hiding in there, so lots of characters, some ambiguity.
So here we go.
So abdomen sternites so the underside, apical 4th of segment.
So we're looking at near the rim.
There's a band of white appressed hairs.
So umm, the note here is that the band is often really narrow, not complete, and they exist only in patches on the far side.
That's largely what I see in most of these things.
We have an explain here which goes into even more.
I mean, that's what it used, but no, almost nobody ever clicks on it.
Umm, so here we're we're just going into more detail that we're just looking at these oppressed pale hairs on the sides.
Usually of these segments and and that these these things are usually quite small.
So I'll we'll show a couple here.
So if we go in and say let's look at something that has only, so the categories are none.
Umm, but won't show that because the absence is easier to and illuminate than the presence.
So presence on segments 2 and three present on 2 through 4 present on three to four and present on four only.
So you have all these different categories.
We'll do one that should have them on a bunch of them.
So let me see if I can pull out Lunas.
I'll do lunatics because Lunas is perhaps the most common species.
Umm.
And carefully pull these out.
Umm.
In uh at other than regardless, if you're hanging on agricultural fields with pumpkins is perhaps the most common species.
Alright, so this is good.
So we have.
Or not.
As you know, we get a good angle here and we're looking at OOP.
I have another specimen on here and I wanna put away.
This is the Donatus, the one with the hairs on the sides of the mazeppa sternum, trying to keep my specimens all in a row here.
Me.
That's the right spot.
It is OK, so back to Lunas.
Let me see.
If I can get that at a good eval to the microscope.
Back to the microscope.
Take it down to.
Reasonable early on.
Not.
No, I can probably get rid of some of this.
There we go.
Alright, so you can already, even though this is not very magnified at this point, you can see a bit of these white oppressed hairs on the sternite.
So we're looking at the underside here, here, here and here.
All these things are wait.
I pressed hairs on the sternites in different patterns, so I believe to we're trying to get this two and three have white hair bands largely.
Remember, we're talking about the April 4th.
So basically, near the rim, we're probably not right on the rim as is illuminated here.
So unlike the oppressed hairs up here and on the rest of the body, these are usually not as umm shall we say, dense and obvious why they're here, are at all.
I have no idea, but so here you can see here's white hair bands, white oppressed prone hairs here and here.
And so this is TS2S3.
Here's S4 absent in the middle, but present at the lateral side.
So many, many times, if I recall correctly, you will find that these hairs are there, but only at these lateral edges.
Leg is a little bit in the way.
But you can see here on this last 14234 there are white hairs there, but they are white restricted to the size and they're not as obvious as the upper upper ones.
So we're moving to higher power here.
And I'm trying to eliminate the shake in this so.
There.
So there's some reflectance and maybe some goo here, but here are the white hairs easier to see there and then on S2.
It's a little bit mixed up with what appears to be maybe some kind of dirt like those things there, contamination, but there are some lateral white hairs in there.
So that's what you're looking for when you're looking for those.
Sometimes it's really obvious, and again, sometimes you have a specimen that is a little bit messed up, and again, you can choose on discover life more than one category if you're not sure, just to be safe, and we want to be non guessing.
OK, so that's the the hair bands there.
Now just looking at my time, we got about 10 minutes me not finish all these things.
So.
Umm.
Umm, so we just talked about those.
So now we're back up on the tergites the color of the hair band.
Ah, this is another one that took me a little bit of time.
So Molly will call these yellow UM and white, but it's really, really, really a pale.
It's like a dirty pale yellow versus bright bright white differentiation.
And so if you're looking for something bright yellow, you're not gonna find it.
And it's pretty again, it's pretty subtle.
So let's see what we have here for some pale yellow members.
I wonder if I'm a goddess, is one of them?
Umm.
So remind Goddess is classified as having pale yellow and usually it's some of the white hair bands reflect in the pale yellow category.
Not all of them.
And the last ones are more the bright white and then this grayish white will find some specimens for those and you can see the differences hopefully.
But it's another one that every once in awhile antico, like I'm not 100% sure about this, but usually if there's if it's a pale yellow situation, umm, we are umm, I'm going to take the light level down on this.

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Droege, Sam 46:16
But this does illuminate things.
Here they see one of the characters here of Renegades, relatively.
Small area and definitely not parallel.
And if we look up at the top here, I can't.
It's not.
Can't see it?
Well, there's no white bars there, and that pretty much narrows it down to Rama, goddess.
So but let me change the light level here.
Get out and we will take it down to that.
So hopefully OK, yeah, not bad.
So again, we have the processing of the let's bring this up to full screen.
And the processing issues here and color rendition.
Through pictures and also on the screen and maybe I'll try and pull up room.
I got us there, but this bit of yellowish here and then bright white down there, that's what we're looking at.
So already you can see pretty subtle.
Let's try and bring up a renegade's picture.
From no, and usually with again with yellow you have.
A umm set of like yellow to so you can see like here Smithsonian's picture yellowish white that's not that yellow, but it is a little bit yellow.
And if you look at a lot of tribulus all of a sudden you get it.
And there's in general, there's not going to be contrast between the front ones and the rear ones.
Nat again, I don't really see it in that one.
So we'll wonder if I have any good illustrations. These.

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Droege, Sam 48:14
Yeah.
So that yellow area is pretty darn subtle.
So sometimes you may not want to use it at all.
Let's look at.
The situation go back here to.
The this so so the majority.
So, umm, we're looking at things that are classified as only having grayish white.
There's nine.
Here's Ohh we had Donatas, which we just had up there to have anything else here.
Literatus interesting.
So let's see if we can.
It's show you something that makes any sense of what's at all whatsoever on terms of this color, with the contrasting all white things.
Still, I think you're seeing getting the point that these are a little difficult to define in terms of white, not white.
To look in here we specimens very good one, the Georgia Cohen.
Yeah, georgicus.
OK, so here's one.
I'm just sticking underneath and is you have to find as entirely went down, so there should be no shift in the color rendition.
And everything should have a grayish white hue.
Does that show up for you?
Maybe, maybe not.
You know, we have some light color rendition of the light bulbs themselves that may be casting a a light, but what you're looking for is that these hair bands are all the same color and it's going to be a grayish white.
They're not gonna have any yellowish cast, so I'm just illustrating.

Maffei, Clare J 50:12
Damn, is there like any other difference to the quality of the hair?

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Maffei, Clare J 50:16
Like a little bit more thicker.

Droege, Sam 50:19
No.

Maffei, Clare J 50:20
No, totally same.

Droege, Sam 50:21
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
So again, sometimes it's one of those things that because these are subtle that you want to skip that question and go to somewhere else and then or look at what your options are under those colors.
And but use it with caution, particularly when you're beginning, because that yellow not yellow is pretty subtle.
It took me a bit before I got into the fact that maybe sometimes I have to drop that because I can't quite tell if there isn't some pale yellow.
We're talking really, as you saw, really, really pale yellow.
OK, Clipeus, how are you doing on time?
Here we got a one minute here.
So with the clipeus.
So there's several characters on here that are useful.

Maffei, Clare J 51:19
I think your phone clock is a little fast.
It's 152.

Droege, Sam 51:23
No, it's 152.

Maffei, Clare J 51:26
Umm.

Droege, Sam 51:26
No.
Weird.
I would think that the phone clock would be governed by the government, but maybe not.
OK, so good.
So the Clippy is so in some species you have a.
Well, this is just length and we won't go into a lot of details here, but if you can see by looking at this that if you measure the.
The how much the Clippy is projects below the level of the two eyes.
You get a notion that you have a long clipeus, so here it says apical Rimmel clipeus are passing the bottom edge of the eye by 1.5 lateral ocelli diameter.
So again, we're using the celli to measure that and we have something that is more the normal case where it's a lot less, so not surpassing by more than one lateral is silly.
You can see here.
So that's pretty straightforward measurement.
I frankly don't use that one very much.
Let's see what species are involved as having a long clippy's face.
Face really only one Donatus, so maybe that's why, because I'm not seeing a lot of differences in there.
So this one though is used a fair amount and there's quite a bit of variation on those.
It's a relatively and we'll I'll pull up a specimen, relatively good character that can be seen.
So if you look at the clipeus and you're looking at a smooth, unpitted, slightly elevated longitudinal midline, so a line going right down the center of the clip, E that's raised and you can say that's a line versus something that is just like a entire field as it's pointed out here of pitting with no line, this one has is illustrating the distinct line going down the middle.
And then there's the, umm, the always present.
Well, maybe if I look closely, there is a line, but let's look at a strong line I think would be good under the microscope and see what we have here.
Ohh, only four.
Have strong lines my roof, thorax and the rest.
I guess are in the ambiguous well as quickly look how many are umm added.
If we add both strong and faint, well, not that many.
So Leonatus is 1 and often I can see.
Well, let's pull up one artist and see if we can see a what's considered to be a subtle lying there.
I believe I have seen that and use that a fair amount, but leonatus used the keys out pretty pretty quickly.
Thankfully, because it is so common.
Marinate.
There's our out of focus leonatus face.
Could pieces coming into view.
And yeah, you can.
There's something going on there.
It's certainly not like the.
Picture we saw for strong, but so you can see the ambiguity there, but there's something running down the middle there.
Umm.
And but not not real, not very clear at all in this particular shot and specimen.
Let's see if Leonardo's is also scored for abbing.
Absent cause, you could look at that and say it's not there.
And who did?
So sorry, I was clicking on only instead of has.
So a lot of things are scored for, but not lunatics.
Lunatics is scored for.
Having a faintly distinct mine, only so a bunch of things are scored for not having it, and I'm a fair number are for having a strong one.
So Leonatus was shown to have the strong one, but also to have the faintly distinct one, but not the absent 1.
Oops.
They'll notice again, and you know, when I was looking at the specimen, we just looked at for Lunas.
It you know, you could imagine scoring it for not having there, but it's not his scored for only distinct and faintly.
What's in that particular category? Umm.
So I'm wondering, now let's look at so absent I think is not very illuminating.
Let's look at has faintly distinct.
Again, see if we can see another species, specimen concaves.
Chris Onion can care.
This is a fun one.
That's, I believe the.
Yeah, that's the one.
That's a sylvestra specialist.
So many fun bees. Yep.
And we get rid of this one.
We'll notice, friend.

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Droege, Sam 57:21
Sure, we got it right, yeah.
To Concaves now is scored or a faint line.
So many in.
Hmm.
I'm not seeing much of a line right now.
See if we.
See.
All right.
When I look at that, I see no line whatsoever.
Let's see if Concaves is scored also were absent.

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Maffei, Clare J 58:18
Why don't you do an only?

Droege, Sam 58:21
Umm I could interesting that concave AUS, but maybe I have.
Do I have the mail or the female?

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Droege, Sam 58:36
No, I have a meal.
So let me let me pull the female here.
I'm not sure if I don't recall seeing that character in the, umm, the reason not for only is I'm I'm interested in in sort of ambiguous ones.
We could do only and not sure if it how much how many are scored for, only faintly distinguishable to well conchatus.
OK, so right, so this is the classic faint one and not scored for distinct or Epson.

Maffei, Clare J 59:02
Oh, well, there you go. Interesting.

Droege, Sam 59:11
So let's go and see if we can see 8 feet.

Maffei, Clare J 59:16
If we can convince ourselves that's there.

Droege, Sam 59:19
Great.
I don't see one.
No, I should focus.

Maffei, Clare J 59:23
Oh, you were switching to the female?
Never mind.

Droege, Sam 59:25
Yeah, I changed the female.
Yeah, the male definitely didn't have one.
And let me change the angle.
The first impression, though of that was no.
No line, so I have to go back and look at Molly's thing and see if we have mislabeled the presence of a line.
Alright, this is the female con cavis.
And I'm gonna say there is no Madeline there at all and minimum it should be scored also for absurd.
Unless I'm missing something, I'm going to look at it under my regular microscope, just in case there's some lighting thing going on here.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:13
I'm going to look at the key.

Droege, Sam 1:00:27
Uh, you know what?
Yeah, there is a bit of 1 at the top that was hidden by the goop.
You do a quick goop.
Removal if I can so I could see where this was coming from.
Excuse me while I manicure this specimen.
But it's not very.
I think it should also be scored for, you know, having one present right when you put it back in and see if it shows up.
Under the light.
So if you look towards the top now.
Of the clippies of scraped off a bunch and you can see a faint line there, but certainly it's.
Bit.
Eyeglasses on and it's a little bit tough with this lighting here, but if you look I think mostly it's a lighting issue.
So here's this line here and doesn't really go extend all the way in, but this was covered with but and so there's a bit one I think I am going to add it to being absent in the guide though.
Umm, that's probably all the time we have today for illumination.

Maffei, Clare J 1:02:05
Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:02:05
We can finish it up next time.

Maffei, Clare J 1:02:07
You what?
Time, yes.

Droege, Sam 1:02:09
And are there any questions?

Maffei, Clare J 1:02:10
So there has not been.
It's been a so opened up also just as like what's coming up and sometimes this month probably will have another ceratina session.

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Maffei, Clare J 1:02:25
And then Lisa Glassons are gonna be joining us in September.
So that will probably give us just enough time to finish off this and the serotonina right so.

Droege, Sam 1:02:36
Umm yeah.
I mean, we can obviously we jump around a lot and then we'll try and get Tom Orna ferko for EPS at some point and yeah, bring in more guests and then who knows where.

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Droege, Sam 1:02:52
I mean, we've got lazy glosson.
We'll see how far that goes and how what's detail?
Joel and Jason wanna get into, but yeah, a lot of species there, a lot of subtlety between some of those pairs.

Maffei, Clare J 1:03:07
Yeah, I'm not sure how long they wanna be coming every week.
Well, I think that'll be an emerging conversation.

Droege, Sam 1:03:11
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too, yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 1:03:16
Yeah.
Did they decide themselves up for three weeks or three months?
Three years, they don't know.

Droege, Sam 1:03:19
Yeah.
Yeah, who knows?
I mean, we still have, we still can get into a lot of the the small groups of andrina track endrina, the Melandri INAS and there's a yeah within those are a bunch of hair pullers and me, Mike and I and delve into those sort of endless isn't it with near 800 species east of the Mississippi.

Maffei, Clare J 1:03:29
OK.
Kind of, yeah.
OK.
Well, I'm gonna stop the recording.

Droege, Sam 1:03:50
Alright.

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Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription