92_Andrena subgenera 10 males_Mike Arduser_Aug 2 2023

August 2, 2023, 5:05PM

Mike Arduser (Guest) 0:06
Did you get the one I sent?
Just maybe an hour or two.

Droege, Sam 0:08
Yeah. Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 0:09
OK, good.
Yeah, they're.
I woke up in the middle of the night with realizing a couple things I forgotten.
So anyway, I kind of forget where we left off, but I think we were.
We had talked about tracking andrina and scrapped her opsis, which are couple of 28 the males is that?

Droege, Sam 0:29
Yep.
And we went down to where you just had a a, a whole clump of of things that weren't, weren't talked about.
So yeah, track andrina mails are, you know, reasonable to ID as a group, but I I almost never am identifying them to species, no.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 0:53
Yeah, that's that's a challenge.
Definitely.
So I mean, I think if you're convinced you don't have track injuring or scrapped drops this.
Males and those would be kind of kind of unique at this point in the key because they're a dorsal part of the property and it's really articulate and has a usually has part of a Carina separating the dorsal part from the posterior part.

Droege, Sam 1:22
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:22
There are couple of other species that and Barbara laborers mails will which will get to have a kind of a roughened dorsal propidium.
But they don't have a crying on, but that's one that can confuse people.
Confuses me.
Umm, so the next thing a couple of 29 is the vertex and how long it is in relation to the diameter of a cell of an ocellus which uh can take some getting used to and often requires some higher magnification maybe than you might be easily thinking of and and sometimes a very close look because sometimes the differences, you know it's the vertex length greater than the diameter.
Or is it the same or is it less?
Sometimes those are very, very small differences.

Droege, Sam 2:13
Hey, babe.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:13
They're real, but you just sometimes have to see the the whole spectrum in order to finally I see what you meant, so.

Droege, Sam 2:25
Right.
And also you have the problem sometimes of the the rear.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:28
Ohh.

Droege, Sam 2:29
The back edge of the head or the vertex is there's a curve, right?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:35
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 2:35
So you change the angle a little bit and the distance the apparent distance differs, and so the so it can become if it's close it can.
You can shift from one to the other now and discover life.

Fortuin, Christine joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:50
Yep.

Droege, Sam 2:52
We tend to if it's close, then we score it for both things, but in a more dichotomous world, do you usually try to put things into tighter packages?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:04
Yeah.
And and in terms of the dichotomous key, when you come to a couple like that where you're not sure is it longer, is it not?
Umm, I frequently just end up going both ways, taking both choices, going both ways and the key, and just with the hopes that while something else will appear, that's very definite.

Droege, Sam 3:17
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:25
So that's just one strategy.

Droege, Sam 3:26
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:29
So the next the next two subgenera uh malandrino, which is a big group.
And then a tiny andrina which which is just a it's it's the exotic, the introduced species.
And during the Wella, both of those have a pretty broad a pretty long vertex.
I think most of us it's pretty obvious.
Most of those, there's one or two species of Mel entering the work.
That's really close.
And Confederate has one of those and I don't.

Droege, Sam 4:00
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 4:02
Yeah, that's not very common, but it's it's still you got ohk, OK.

Droege, Sam 4:06
We yeah, we get it regularly.
It's sure.
Yeah, it's sort of a, it's uncommon, but regular in the late spring.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 4:15
No.
So those two groups are easily, you know, if that's what, where you're at.
Those two are pretty easy to separate, and again most of the Malandrino's are spring or early late spring, maybe early summer and and at least in the Midwest, teeny andrina will tell his Midsummer or even later.

Droege, Sam 4:33
Yep.
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 4:39
So there's that that can help and it's not in the key, but so seasonality sometimes is helpful.
So on the melodyne is there are a bunch of them and they the males can be challenging.
In general, they're big, relatively speaking.
Umm, but then this they're not all I find.
Sometimes you just have to.
Yep, be comparative.
Look at different different examples and finally realize so this this one's this.

Droege, Sam 5:06
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:10
This one's that and they're they're bunch of.

Droege, Sam 5:11
Yeah, I'll.
I'll take you to we have a spreadsheet that I've Claire has put this up here four mile andrina males because a lot of it really is comparative and it's sort of a weight of evidence thing and it's not.
Yeah, it's pretty tricky to get use a dichotomous key on this because a lot of there's a lot of shadings and a lot of this and this need to be present kind of thing.
So you can see these are just our eastern ones here and you can see that we've highlighted what our key characters for each of the groups and that we do use things a lot of things that are not super definitive but can be helpful like umm komoda has a one to one length by width on F2 and the others are mostly 1.5 to one.
But you know a not.
That's can be subtle.
We have facial hair color that can be useful because sometimes there's black in the face.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 6:16
Well.

Droege, Sam 6:16
Particularly Carlini is something that pops out label process can be useful, but a bunch are in between and then.
And GT3 here, vertex heights all kind.
There's actually a lot of characters, but it's the package and you end up having to look under the sternites quite a bit, and so anyway, I just letting people know.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 6:43
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 6:44
Rather, we could we could have a whole meal andrina.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 6:48
Ohh yes we could.

Droege, Sam 6:49
Day.
That would probably really useful because it's they're very common and you often get males and bowls by the bucket load.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 6:57
Hmm.
Yeah.
And like these?
Like Sam said, it's very few of those male entering the species can be identified based on one character.
It's a suite of characters, and it's sometimes hard to keep all that in your head, so it's a nice to have a they table spreadsheet like that to remind yourself.

Droege, Sam 7:16
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 7:18
That's very good.

Droege, Sam 7:20
Here's a on on screen Now this is Will Keller.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 7:20
What are we looking at?

Droege, Sam 7:24
So just to show that when you get in close, you can see that there's just unbelievable amount of pitting on there and this is a bad shot for looking at the vertex because it's a scance.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 7:24
OK.

Droege, Sam 7:38
But you can see that it's pretty relatively short.
Umm.
In there and uh yeah.
And then these pits run all the way to edge and it's very dense.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 7:52
Both and both males and females have that really dense, fine pitting, and that's and none of the male injuring is something like that, so it's a pretty unique species.

Droege, Sam 7:52
So yeah, yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
OK.
Oh, I should also mention that PIC has changed things on the on the Discover Life guide so that when you actually click on the pictures, you don't get tiny little square magnified at square.
It blows the whole thing up.
So an improvement in the and I I think at at a higher resolution too.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 8:26
Ah yeah.

Droege, Sam 8:33
You know, we're talking 20 years ago when he started all this.
So things things have changed.
It's not dial up land anymore.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 8:44
So uh Melandri and Tiny Andrina will Carlo.

Droege, Sam 8:45
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 8:51
Please straightforward terms of separating those two groups, but after that from couplet 31 to the end of the key.
These are groups that are, uh, so like the better word, just tricky.
And a lot of these show up the sub genre show up repeatedly because it's hard to find characteristics.
That 100% identify the sub general.
So what?
What you've got here is kind of a hodgepodge.
And so it's not this some of the subgenre show several times which is kind of frustrating, but that's I didn't know any other way to deal with it.
Umm, so at 31?
Umm you have we talked, we talked about this before.
The reflects nature of the apical margin of the six sternite and of all these groups and species that follow from 31.
There's only one, and that's my solicitous that has a strongly reflexed.
That's six apical margin.
The rest, everything that follows, even other things that are in the same subgenus, do not.
So that's a unique character in this part of the key for that species and it's.
Barely common species, at least in the Midwest.
I don't know if you guys if you have any images.
So anyway, so that's that's a unique character.
That's all you need to see if you're in this part of the key that you've got a a specimen that's got that reflect strongly, very obviously reflects that's hard to next.
Six.
It's gonna be by solicitous which is a spring spring, species pollen, pollen, generals.
And send your we're not hearing you.

Droege, Sam 10:54
See, I must have clicked on something.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 10:55
OK.
And now we are.

Droege, Sam 10:57
Anyway, I'm.
Yeah, I'm gonna show a basalis mail.
Umm sternal characters here let me just change it so that the pin isn't running exactly through it.
So the we've talked about this before, but the the upturn nature of the last umm turtle segment, our external segment is really a great character, particularly in comparison among like 2 closely related things that you're not quite sure about.
Let me sit put this on to full screen here.
Here we go and oops.
So this is looking straight down and you can see first of all just again pointing out tricky things.
It took me a while to learn, so there's S8 and so that's it's not a great angle on it, but it's probably entire.
Sometimes it's fork, sometimes it's flat, sometimes it's large, sometimes it's small, so that can be useful enough.
We go down S7 I guess is never really used and maybe tucked away.
I just it's not part of the dialogue.
Here's S6 and here comes up there it there's hair along this area, so sometimes there is, sometimes they're not in these species.
But here's this rim right here.
It's completely turned at almost right angles facing us, but if you were to show show the be in the right angle would be turned down, but you can see this upturned rim in that area.
I'll try and flip it to the side because it's an important thing to be looking at in andrina's specimens and it's, I don't know how I don't.
Can't think of anything else.
I mean, different bees do different things that on the posterior edges of sternites and stuff, but this seems to be a endrina thing to have this upturned area.
Not aware of it being used elsewhere.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 13:24
Here you go.

Droege, Sam 13:26
So you're looking at the.
It's a.
There's some hairs in here, but you can see.
So there's essay it again.
Looks like it's entire to slightly convex, and here's S6 running.
This is S5 running up to here, and these are the hairs in front of it and we're looking at it laterally.
So what we're really just gonna see IS11 edge of it.
It's looping across the entire back and this sclerotized part of S6 is turned up pretty much at a right angle to the rest of the base.
And so that's the diagnostic point.
We don't see the species that much, though I think it is dirtball in Midwest, but not so here.
It may be that we're not getting out early enough and not umm, paying enough attention to tree things or nesting aggregations.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:25
Yeah, I I've, I've noticed that.
I mean, that's a lot of the the, the, the grad student, graduate student specimens or projects that I've worked with over the years.
They usually don't start collecting.
This is in general until classes are over, so they missed the early part of the season and that's maybe it can't be helped.

Droege, Sam 14:40
Great.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:47
But but I partly that explains, maybe the absence or the rarity of some of these early spring and drenas the people just aren't out there getting them looking for them so.

Droege, Sam 14:47
Great.
Right.
And in the old days, you didn't really have grad students.
You just had people, collectors and they they were after, you know, they were ready to go early spring time to get out of the house and start, you know, getting new records and and such.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:07
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 15:12
So I think some of our problems with Rarity and changes are just a reflection of different habits that people had in the two time periods in terms of their wet and wear and how they collected.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:18
Yeah.
I think you're right.
So that's uh, and you're gonna buy Cialis to buy Cialis?
Umm.
So couple of 32 umm this this is the we're talking about the mouth parse the Galea.
The blade, like that structures that are, uh, between which is the gloss.
So the Gallia or the sword like or the blade like things stick out the flat usually maybe a little bend to them, but there's a group of species in the subgenus.
You andrina that have the gaily relatively narrow and long and pointed relative to most other andrina.
And again, this is usually something you have to to see because when we say narrow what's what's that mean?
Uh, different things to different people, but once you see it and I recognize it, it can be helpful if the mouth parts are visible.
And of course, that's that's a big if sometimes, but it's.
Yeah, but it's a great 100% character.
That's why it's in the key that if you can see it well, then boom.
So there are uh it in the Midwest, there are and I think and to the East too, there are three species draining eye facility eye and polemonium eye that have these the mouth, Vidalia like that and both sexes do males and females and these are gonna early early, early, mid spring species that are specialists on certain plants.
So you have to, you know, come out and look for them and.
Sometimes there's a slight bluish cast to drain the eye and to palmoni eye and and even to type facility eye, but it's very subtle and under different lighting conditions that can look different.
So I mean that's helpful, but it's that's not always diagnostic.
So my parts are important and if you can't see them well that figure something else out because that's the only thing.
The only thing I put in the key at that couplet because it it's 100%.
If you can see it and.

Droege, Sam 17:48
Which is hard for us people who don't pull anything out because like, I'm looking at these specimens now to see if I can get any that show it. Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 17:52
Well.

Droege, Sam 18:02
Yeah.
Yeah.
OK, I got one here because a lot of times the head is aiding the head angle and a variety of other things.
So this is andrina faciliy.
And where did I collect?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:17
Ohh.

Droege, Sam 18:18
Is it from Kentucky?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:20
Uh.

Droege, Sam 18:21
And we almost never.
We just don't have much in the way of acilia here.
Love.
And but it's there, but we haven't looked at it.
So we have almost none of these Familia species records.
Is that mentioned earlier in that discussion?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:36
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 18:39
OK, so let's see if I can get this in there.
Yeah, very busy here, unfortunately.
Umm, why is that not coming out so well?
Something is over the front edge.
You know, wait a second.
They went to visit of the mandible.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 19:36
What one way to get a kind of a handle on this is if you look at you know, say a common species andrina, crescini or any of the Melandri Anas look at their mouth parts and you'll kind of get a feeling for what the normal Delia is like.
And that's that's gonna be a starting point.

Droege, Sam 20:06
Yeah, I've got here so long that it's turned up and twisted and to get a different specimen.
It's just the bad view.
But I would like to show it.
Would help if I looked in the right box.
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm gonna get a specimen that doesn't have a lot of things going on in there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 20:42
OK.
No.

Droege, Sam 20:45
Yeah.
I'll do a quick another cookbook.
So go ahead Mike.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 20:49
Yeah.
And the like.
The blue tint or the blue casts or the blue overtone?
Umm, that's not in the key, but it it if you see it.
If you and that's you know, at this point in the key, those are the only species that are going to have that kind of a.
Shimmer or a bluish overtone?
And with with Durani, it's usually pretty obvious and up to three, but it it shows up in all of them to a slight degree.

Droege, Sam 21:12
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:17
So that's it's a, it's something that keep in mind probably should put that in the key.
And just as a reminder, as a reminder, it can be.

Droege, Sam 21:22
Right.
I would say in in Palmoni that it's more of a green than a blue.
So gerania.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:31
OK.

Droege, Sam 21:32
Yeah, definitely blue.
And of course, there's a couple species things going on in there that may that.
Uh, the bees of Minnesota thing that you guys put together is illuminating that there may be more than one draining eye.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:45
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think there is.

Droege, Sam 21:49
Yeah, I can't show.
I cannot show the the head there all tucked too far in which is a problem.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:51
OK.
Sure.

Droege, Sam 21:57
So yeah, maybe having a little note about the shininess because that may be your only option.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:03
Yeah.
Could be useful.
Yeah, can be useful.
And again, you know, if you if you could, if you're not sure, you could just continue on the key and see if hopefully something else will show up well.
If mouth parts aren't bad enough, the next couple it the yeah.

Droege, Sam 22:18
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:19
Wait, wait.
We're talking about the genital capsule and the peenis valves.
Are those things in the middle?
Uh, and the reason I put them in there because again, it's 100% if you can see it, that's that's all you need to see.
But umm, if you can't, then it be in this next group of species becomes pretty tricky unless you have all of them.
And then you can therefore see they'll see the differences.
So umm, all the UN arena have have pretty narrow uh pennis valves all the way to the base.

Droege, Sam 22:46
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:54
And you know, including those that have the narrow mouth part.
So it's it's a pretty unique subgenus, but there's no single character that the the identifies it.
So if if we are lucky enough to be able to see the pennis valves or just we think we're going to the right direction, then it becomes a little more straightforward on.
We've talked about 6:00, but S2S3S4 and S5 and many males.
There's a fringe of hairs that can be short, can be long, can be dense, can be absent.
That can be pretty useful in certain cases, and so that's what a couple of 34 is trying to get at, and those are typically been called fimbria apical fimbria.
You know the turd guides.
We called him fascia, but on the on the stern eyes.
Basically it's the same location there along the apical margin, and they can be other very useful set of characters.
So these two that disend Dirina and Luke Andrina W script and Barbara Labis both have.
Ohh sternal fib fimbria that are pretty.
I think we'd all agree.
Ohh yeah, that's what they are.
They're there.
We can see them and the other two a couple of 36 niguarda and then the SIM entering the group.
They don't have anything.
I may have a few hairs, but nothing that we would call Finder or fascia.
So that's a, let's say, a good separation.
I think in those two groups, but other than that they that that, you know, they don't, they mean they're they all look very similar, very streamlined.

Droege, Sam 24:31
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 24:37
There's nothing outstanding about them.
They're all dark and narrow.
Andrina males and they can until you get that, at least for me, until I got accustomed to seeing all of them, I think.
Well, OK, now I get it, but it can be pretty confusing at first, but they can be common also on a Barber, labor is going to be very common.
At least in the Midwest.

Droege, Sam 25:01
The question in the chat does need to hear, though it not also have the narrow pennis valve.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 25:09
Sir, not all of it.

Droege, Sam 25:09
Did you hear that, Mike?
So the question was, does nagger hurta also have narrow pennis valves?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 25:20
No.
I don't think so, no.

Droege, Sam 25:23
It shouldn't, did they?
So do you have?
Are they saying they have contraindications verbatim?
What?
I ask Bonnie.
I would love to hear more to that question, OK.
Bonnie was, I said.
She suggesting that that she she has specimens of Niger.
Heard of that?
Have narrow penises selves? Yeah.

Bonnie Zand 25:44
No, no, I am not I.

Droege, Sam 25:45
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 25:45
OK.
Yeah, I mean and and and broaden is a relative term and I I I definitely some of them are more broadened at the base than others and so but the UN drenas are just narrow the whole way and they don't broaden it to base even a little bit.
So all the others that follow from, well, a couple of 3435 and 36, the pennis valves towards the base, broaden enough I think that we all agree that OK, those are definitely broadening a bit.
Anyway, I don't know if that helps, but.

Bonnie Zand 26:19
OK.
I guess I'm confused because you said earlier that all the UN, Drina, have the pennis valves narrow throughout.
But then you endrina A doesn't. Is that?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:28
Ohh, I'm sorry.
Yeah, yeah, I you. I miss.

Bonnie Zand 26:31
That that's correct then.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:32
I misspoke.
That's that's the one exception.

Bonnie Zand 26:36
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:36
Yeah.
And yeah, I'm thank you for pointing that out and correcting me.
Ohm. Yes.
So that that is the one exception and it's and then this is the one case where they're not greatly broadened, but they broaden enough that I think we both agree with it.
Yeah, those are they're broad dish.
So thank you.

Bonnie Zand 26:57
Thank you very much.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:57
Bye.
Thank you.

Droege, Sam 27:02
Yeah, it's a lot of those.
So Barbara laborers is regular.
If you're in the north but not like where we are, we get it pretty uncommonly.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 27:10
Umm.

Droege, Sam 27:10
But that SIM andrina the andrina nasonia here umm, which is really really really common, like one of the most common ones in the the males are also very common.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 27:16
Comment.
OK.

Droege, Sam 27:25
Caught in bowls.
Caught in Nanning.
Lots of different kinds of situations.
It's sister tax Wheeler eye is much less common.
Seems to be restricted to more the mountains where we are but and nasonia.
If I have a a specimen of andrina that seems really really plain, I am like immediately started thinking about Nasonia and the Proportial triangle.
Does is pretty similar to the female and I see a a very equilateral triangle filled with minute roughness.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:01
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 28:04
Or is it?
It's sort of has an A, A look and feel.
It's doesn't really change from the base to the tip in terms of the surface sculpturing, but it is sculptured, but it's not striate really.
And then I'm like, OK, I'm on it.
And then the first two antennal segments, flagellar segments have.
A A look to them.
I I can't quite describe, but there's like a dark patch that partially cuts across one of them, and then there's the little, the little projection on the.
Middle of the you have to flip it over and in the thorax if you can see it.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:47
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 28:50
There are used almost always is a little tiny nub.
It's really strange.
Like, why is that there?
What is?
It seems like it has no purpose.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:59
And it has a good name that makes sense.
It's called the Subpleural signum.
So sub subpleural means just below the plural and the signal is a little mark and and Sam's act absolutely right.

Droege, Sam 29:05
Uh-huh.
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:13
If you can see it, wow.
But sometimes it's obscured by a leg or something.
But but but it's always you always good looking for.

Droege, Sam 29:19
Yeah, it's.
Yeah.
And it's surprisingly, once you kind of have seen it once or twice, it's it's very often visible, like you can almost you just start scan seeing the specimen back and forth upside down.
And you can find it because the it's.
So this is the reason why it's at the very end, right?
It's such a that there's not a lot else going on for this species, so if I have something that is super plain and I can start fitting the other these things and then I can see that's that signum, then like we're good and usually there's females around or usually it's in some beat up habitat which helps.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:43
Right, yeah.

Droege, Sam 30:02
But it's a common species. What?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:05
And Wheeler eyes.
It's the same way we I hardly ever see that species.
It's it's upper, mid, upper, Midwest and I mean it's not, I just don't see it very often, but it's very, very similar.

Droege, Sam 30:09
OK.
Yeah, yeah, I think it.
I think it largely lacks a lot of the turtle bands.
If I remember right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:24
Right.
No hairbands right?

Droege, Sam 30:25
Yeah.
Yeah.
Umm alright.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:28
So.
Salmon used a good word to describe the the this last part of the key from couplet 31 down to 36.
He used the word plane, and that's a good way to describe the males of all those species that are in that part of the key.
No, and that's not to knock Andrina.
It's just that these are plain looking males that don't have any outstanding immediately outstanding features.
So good work, good work.

Droege, Sam 30:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I think we're at the end of the the subgenera as defined by Laberge and the traditional people who actually looked at morphology rather than genes.
A key here which will be useful pretty much forever, and then the molecular stuff will be what it'll be, but they're changing the sub genera.
As we've mentioned before, so we'll have to reflect that at some point in the guides, but the the morphologically based subgenera definitions are useful and still a little tricky, but be aware that they may not be matching up any longer with some of the, umm, the old thoughts, the new, the new, you'll things be.
You'll see things being moved around.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:51
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 31:55
Umm.
So, Claire, do we have any questions?
I think we're at the yeah, you know, we're.
You can ask us anything since we have 20 minutes left on the books.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 32:18
What I heard a rumor of Tripolis be being next on the next on the list.

Droege, Sam 32:22
Yeah.
Did you wanna do that? Yeah.
Yeah, I think that would be good.
They they comes ones at onesie, twosies.
They have some good characters, and yet there's still.
Yeah.
Molly Wright Myers Key is is magnificent.
But there's, as with all large groups of species, there's some tricky parts to it, too.
Or tricky tricky species groups.
We have a pretty and we have a pretty good collection.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 32:55
Yeah, it.
OK, that's good.

Droege, Sam 33:01
But I'm not sure.
Did we?
I guess I think coming up at some point, maybe with Melissa Spring or I haven't heard back from or Claire hasn't heard back from.
No, I think that your again, OK, I I work with some pictures, but with Sandra.
Yeah, but Molly, I mean, Melissa is ready to come on and show us the diagrams that she's drawn for.
Sarah.
Tina, so I'm lining that up maybe within the next couple of weeks.
It sounds like our least you've lost some team might be able to start if we wanted to do a consecutive series and early September, but I haven't.
I need to figure that out so those are the kind of the two things that are on on the agenda on the agenda coming up.
Yeah.
So we're going to have Joel Gardner, Jason come in in some, some pattern that we're not quite sure who's gonna be able to attend when and start with the subgenera of lazy blossom sooner.
The sub general OK my might be pretty soon and I think it was JSON was mentioning that maybe there's going to be some changes in the subgenre again too.
He alluded to that, but right now it's good to start with the current subgenera because they're pretty easy to classify and helps divide up a very complex group.
That'll be good.
And then if other people have other species groups, they want us to cover, they should hold.
I I wanna do nomada but my whole nomada collections at the Smithsonian, I saved almost all the specimens, and that's.
That'll be a fun group, but we're gonna repatriate some of that back here and we'll cover it at that time.
Yeah, I had also recommended I went not I as in me had recommended that we go through maybe with the endrina instead of maybe going one by one, but go through.
It's tricky.
Couplets at a time so I like like the mill andrina and track endrina groups.
We could go.
Yeah.
Go through instead of going like all the way through a key or all the way alphabetically like we've maybe done some of the other ones go through in those in those groupings.
So that's another option for where we take this these sessions.
Yeah.
Ain't no, that's alright.
A lot of people end up in mysterious groups of of specimens like we were talking by email.
Morrison, Ella versus imitate Trix.
But there's a whole series of, and then some of these cryptic species that are now kind of being flushed out with molecular data.
Draenei vernalis and Umm is it is easier.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 36:01
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 36:04
She I specifically asked about that.
That group?
Yep, so I it doesn't seem like we're gonna run out of areas to cover for be identification issues.
Said you want to tie this up in a bow today, or do you want to move on to the trade phelous it doesn't look like anybody's sending messages in the chat.
Yeah, I don't know if we wanna really start with Trapalis right now at the end or maybe we should wrap it up.
Should wrap it up.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 36:40
Yeah, probably not.

Droege, Sam 36:41
Let's talk it up.
If we get that, get our for next week.
Questions together to get a US in a row about what's gonna happen at the Lacey Blossom series.
Yeah, it would be nice if we can find.
I'm not sure if Molly's uh.
Publication.
Her her major revision is available to the public.
Or was there a pay wall behind it?
I think it was a zoo zoo keys, but I can't remember.
But in any case, it's worth trying to find and maybe clear we'll get up link to the zoo, the zoo keys.
One, it's a really nice, very nicely illustrated.
A lot of that then was translated into discover life, but it's always good to have the revision too and all these.
It's always good to have multiple paths to identification.
I have 18,008 publication.
Is that that's should be it.
She should be like revision of North America and Tribulus a review of the type of parasitic bee genus fragilis one.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:47
Yep, that's it.

Droege, Sam 37:49
Yeah.
And she's been.
I don't have doing some additional things, and I think Tom Orna Ferko, who will also have to invite for EP lists and Molly, are now working on tidying up like the Simplex group of Tribulus and a couple things that she left out because of complexities.
So we'll see.
They don't think she was using molecular data.
If I recall in her revision, it was straight old school taxonomy from Kansas.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:16
Umm.

Droege, Sam 38:22
No surprise.
Well, I'm thinking I thinking we're good.
Yeah, people can, you know, go out and have a cigarette instead of having to stick here till one.
That's what most of these people are going to do.
Mike, do you wanna do you wanna stay on a little bit and talk about that?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:40
Ah, sure we can.
If. If yeah.

Droege, Sam 38:44
Bees in Maryland with our extra, I don't know.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:45
Yeah.
Do you have time?

Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription