91_Andrena subgenera 9 males_Mike Arduser_July 19 2023

July 19, 2023, 5:03PM

59m 58s

Maffei, Clare J 0:13
Hope you have it.
Thank you very much, Mike.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 0:18
Getting there.
Hopefully it'll be the first be complete in the next week or so, and of course we're down to the those groups that are pretty tricky, so.

Droege, Sam 0:30
I I'm pulling it up now.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 0:32
So.

Droege, Sam 0:32
This is the new version.

Fortuin, Christine joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 0:35
OK.

Droege, Sam 0:36
Let's get to a bigger umm.
Something a larger format here 150 I think is good.
And then I think we were at 17 before, should we start there, Mike?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 0:51
Yeah, I I think, yeah, we, we we left off at 17 which everything before 17.
All those things represented groups that have the uh pronotal ridge and and I believe yellow. Mostly yellow.
Clypeus in the males.

Droege, Sam 1:16
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:17
So everything from now on from 17 on includes groups that don't have have a normal Granado.
But no, no Ridge, no angle, just sort of a general smooth.
Pronotum and some of them have yellow faces and some of them don't, so some of these subgenera will reappear in the key because it's just convenient to use the color of the clip is as a character, and sometimes because of that, groups end up in two different places. So.

Droege, Sam 1:51
Yep.
Alright.
So we'll start with uh yellow, at least in part, and there's a bunch of them that have just a very have more, somewhere between a smudge and partial markings like this.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:03
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 2:05
The first one here I don't know about others, but that's con endrina and if we look it up here and discover life, I see two.
I see it.
The eastern Bradley eye.
And what's this?
Do you know this one?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:19
I I do not.

Droege, Sam 2:19
Cheyenne and Norman.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:20
I just by name and read it.
I've never seen the specimens, so I don't know it.

Droege, Sam 2:23
OK.
Yeah, I suspect I know where it's from, but where?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:29
Yeah.

Mike Slater (Guest) joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 2:30
Where my mother was born.
But other than that, yeah. So.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:32
Uh.
So so Brett, my experience with Bradley I in the in northern Great Lakes region is that it loves things in the Fair Casey family, I mean it might find it in bogs, you know, at Labrador tea at a variety of things in that family.

Droege, Sam 2:45
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:54
So it's a cool looking be very distinctive.

Droege, Sam 2:56
Yeah, I'm.
I'm we mostly get it associated with Ericaceae Vaccinium.
I'm gonna try and pull a specimen.
So you can see the distinctive.
It's got a very, I mean, you just have to look at the clip piece in the mail and you know, even though it does have a long mail or space.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:12
Yeah. It's a very distinctive being.
One of those you know it's you have to go seek it out.
It's not a weedy species, it it seems to be largely confined to places where, you know things.
Blueberries and those are the things are which tend to be natural habitats, not roadsides and things.

Droege, Sam 3:26
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:31
Unless maybe I'll come out.

Droege, Sam 3:34
Yeah.
And all I saw I think.
Trying I'm doing two things at once so and what was her name?
If from North Carolina, that was just asking about, uh, the specimens and where they nest and she was working in blueberry areas.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:45
Yeah, I saw that. Yeah.
Yeah, I don't think the, I don't.
I don't know if they've ever been described.
Maybe yeah, yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 4:00
That's what she's having a problem.
Finding any records?
Umm OK, I'm going to pull up now.
Specimen here.
And so the so you can see because it is one of these things that you just have to see the clipeus and get a like ohh I I know, I know what this is kind of thing.
So you can see, let me do it full screen here.
It's a little bright.
Maybe we'll go up one more click here in so.
What you're looking at is a little bit of a ratty specimen, but you've got the clipeus has a whole here that goes all the way up here as a super clipeus, this is a clip.
Real suture and you can see that there's extensive black up here and there tends to be a this sort of by macularis looking patch, you know referring to their rear end.
This isn't doesn't show super well here, but usually it's that yellow is dented.
I'm gonna call it indented in and the black invades into the center.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:18
Yeah. Yep.

Droege, Sam 5:20
There, it's just, it's just very distinct thing cause normally you don't get something that's partially black.
It's either all yellow or something else.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:29
And and the Mailer space is pretty conspicuous relative to.

Droege, Sam 5:34
Yep.
So there it is from the side.
I don't think we'll show it, but it may be in andrina the longest male or space of any do you think, or at least in the east?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:46
I can't think in the east.
Yeah, I think you're right, E, yeah.

Droege, Sam 5:49
Yeah, Carolina comes pretty close, but I think this this is even longer.
This is really significant a lot of times we're playing around with ohh how many is it one or two widths of the edge of the eye in terms of the maller space width like it's small noticeable under the microscope.
But this is really you can't miss it.
It's up there with colitis and the face.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 6:14
Yeah, no.

Droege, Sam 6:17
The heads long.
I wouldn't say, you know, that doesn't strike me as exceedingly long face compared to cletis and things, but gotta see a male or space and then this marking.
You're done.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 6:29
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 6:33
Right.
So we can go back here.
We can take us to the next step.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 6:41
So every all the other species in the east?
Yeah, do not have a male or space like that at all.
Not even approaching it, really.
So it stands out because of the Clippers and the Mailer space.
So the next we move on, then it's a 19 and this is Andrea Bioli.
He's in the subgenus.
I'm Alyssa, which is a monotypic subgenus, and it showed up earlier.
I well, actually I think I've removed it.
Here's the problem with this species in in in Wallace Liberties revisions, he considered it to have a pronotal Ridge, and I just don't.
It's just not there and and I so that's that's why it shows up here.
So I don't think, I don't think.
I just don't see the ride, so I put it in that part of the key that was species and groups that don't have the ribs.
The other thing is the yellow and on the face really varies in this species extremely from absolutely not being there at all to being present, and splotchy really variable way more so I think than any of the other species.
So it just shows going to show up in two different places.

Droege, Sam 7:56
Yeah, I'm gonna try and pull a specimen, but I just realized that Viola is so common that I have only two specimens set aside.
And then I'm looking at them now, both females.
So I we when we get into our expanded new space, we'll have to, you know, do larger series of all the specimens.
But yeah, I I often think of the so yes, I agree the the the collar is is it doesn't really have a sharp Ridge, but it says sometimes it's as if you took your fingers and pressed it together like over the collar.
It's sort of, it's not quite the same shape as other species, but the mounded clipeus, and then it's a very smudgy yellow mark if it's there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 8:44
Ohh.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's.

Droege, Sam 8:48
And so it's not like Bradley I, which has a partial one, but relatively sharp edges to the to the yellow.
And actually in Bradley I that's more of a cream colored in a lot of ways.
And in Violet, it's it's, uh, it's very much a yellow ochre, brown smudge and not bright colored at all, but it's it's certainly noticeable.
Let's see if we have a picture of it on here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 9:22
I like the like the females, the males.
The clippies is just on the stable and the mouth parts again for an andrina are very long and not that you if the tongue is exposed.
I mean, there's a no brainer because there's no other eastern andrina that have a gloss or tongue like that.

Droege, Sam 9:42
Yeah, I also have no photos of it, but the because if it's too common. Yeah.
So weirdly, I think we mentioned this when we talked about the females.
We get a kind of two sets of the species.
We get some that are that the hair is very white, very almost completely wiped, at least a green colored white and others that are much more on the tanned ocre end of the spectrum.
And it's like, really clear and really distinct.
And I I haven't spent much time looking elsewhere, but again tan ones and I get these white ones and I've always wondered, are those two different things, just like with the weird, weird things you see with a couple other species like we andrina Miserables to a couple different groups in there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 10:31
Hmm.

Droege, Sam 10:45
So yes, plenty more to do.
I'd Violet specialist.
Nothing else seems to be really on violets that much.
So yeah, probably lots to study there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 10:59
Yeah.
And that's one of those species that's in in urban areas and natural areas and everything in between.

Droege, Sam 11:05
Yeah, yeah.
If you have a crappy lawn, I get that often bleeds into a unkempt under story under your bushes with violets.
It's there like a many a time.
I've got these pulled these things right out of someones lawn.
All right.
Do OK, going on.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 11:29
So I'll move on again to to another group that it's gonna show up in other places.
And this is like the females, the males of Mike or endrina are little generally and they had the same characteristics of of the wings.
That is the the.
When you look at the front wing, the four wing, the vein, it separates.
Uh.
So marginal sell one and two is really close.
Super close and sometimes even contacts.
The stigma and it, well that does vary a little bit within microlending species.
It's consistent enough to be a very useful there character.

Droege, Sam 12:17
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 12:18
That's generally the the main difference between micro and other small angriness.
The other thing is the stigma is big in micro endrina, but that's a tough thing to I took that out of the key because it just I I wasn't comfortable describing it.

Droege, Sam 12:33
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, a lot of times they have talked about things like the stigma and the pro stigma sizes, but it gets really squirrelly.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 12:45
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 12:46
You have no reference point other than comparative and then it's not that big.
So if you're like Wally Laberge is spent your entire life staring at andrina, it becomes important.
But otherwise, yeah, sticking with other things is good.
Yeah.
So small bees, one or two vein widths, then you're probably roughly in the pocket of those mic mic grandista species.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 13:13
Yeah.
And another thing which I didn't really realize until last couple weeks is the six sternum in most of the subgenre that follow.
Ah, our is reflected and in micro enduring and none of the Easter ones Eastern ones.
And I know they have a very flat.

Droege, Sam 13:31
Ohh yeah, that's true.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 13:32
They have a flat.
They have a flat 6 and so, but you know, they're very tiny and sometimes it's tricky to see if you don't have, but that's good.

Droege, Sam 13:35
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 13:42
That can be an important it's not a a unique feature of migratory in many entering the species have a flat 6, but within the context of the key, it seems to work.

Droege, Sam 13:48
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 13:54
So as an additional character.

Droege, Sam 13:55
Yeah, I think and when you're starting out this the whole.
Uh, the whole architecture of S6 seems very tricky and difficult because they're covered with hairs.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:08
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 14:08
There's terminology like reflex, which is really just bent up, but it's really bent down right because you have to.
You might be looking at it upside down as bent towards you in the microscope, but when the bee is active on all four, all six legs, it's bent down and it can be a lot of different ways.
However, if it's like some of the ones that are coming up where it's bent at a very strong angle, it's usually a sharp, strong angle.
You don't get a sort of halfway in between.
You get things like in.
I would say mail in drino where you get things that are like a boats prowl where it it ramps up.
But it's it's really the whole S6 is inflated, not a piece of rim like the ones that we're gonna come up against.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:01
Right.

Droege, Sam 15:02
And I'll try and pull some calandrino when we talk about that or one of the others to see the reflex of reflex.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:06
OK, OK.

Droege, Sam 15:11
It's uh, you know, you know, diet, a species or specimen.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:17
Or critique guy that you might have a bunch of those.
That's a good one.

Droege, Sam 15:22
Yeah.
Ohh that's those are very dramatic.
OK.
I'll I'll pull that while you're talking on to the next.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:28
Uh, OK.
So if we if you, uh, you convinced that you don't have a mic andrina? Umm.
And again, we're talking about those groups of andrina that do not have a modified for anodal Ridge, but they do have some yellow or ivory somewhere on the face.
Usually the clypeus, but sometimes in the uh their ocular areas.
So what's out of micro andrina we move on to 21 and you'll remember this from the females.
This is the subgenus Calandrino which is the monster subgenus within the North American andrina, at least traditionally, and there I don't know how many species in these, but there are lots and they're all specialists on some kind of uh aster ACE genus, or group in general.
And UM, the thing, the unique thing about them is in the mouth parts.
And again this if you can't see the mouth parts, well then we have to move on to something else.
But if you can, again you look at the maxillary palps that length relative to the tips of the Gallia, and if things everything is the stars are aligned, you see that the those maxillary parks palps don't extend beyond the tips of the Galea, and that that is a pretty much 100% that you've got a talent. Trina.
Now there are a couple other groups that are species in groups that have short mouth parts like that, but they those are groups that have proven over Ridge or something else that's unique.
So that's kind of the hallmark of the calendaring subgenus.
Both males and females, but if you can't see it, what you know, what do you do?
So there are other a few other things that can be helpful in the East.
Often the periocular areas which are the hearts of the face adjacent to the clypeus between the clypeus and the lower end of the eye and a lot of the calendaring the species.
Those are maculated to some extent, that's not unique to calendar and but it can be helpful.
And the other thing is, umm, you know, one of the other things is turtle fascia and sternal fimbria are usually pretty good spiculus and pretty obvious.
And I didn't put this in there, but many of them are large, really 12 millimeters or so.
There are some smaller ones, but if you have a B that's 12 millimeters or more and it came off some sort of Asteraceae plant, it's almost it's gonna be a calendar.
So I don't know some of those.

Droege, Sam 18:06
I believe, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:07
Some of those don't occur in your neck of the woods, but out here they're fairly common.
How about you?

Droege, Sam 18:12
Most most of them, and I'm trying to think, I guess not all, cause it's like there's gardneri, most are late season species too, and or composite lovers maybe.
Maybe most of them I'm looking through here actually.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:27
Yeah, I think, yeah, they're all.
It's far as I know they're all, or at least we think that they are all Asteraceae uh species.

Droege, Sam 18:37
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:38
But over out here there are.
There are several early ones.
Uh create yeah, Creganna.

Droege, Sam 18:42
Are there?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:45
And then there's a bunch that are on.

Droege, Sam 18:46
Ohh right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:47
There's somehow coreopsis and may and early June.
So yeah, we have and then that's.

Droege, Sam 18:54
What are the what are the coreopsis ones?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:57
Uh, that's Beamer on which, which is.

Droege, Sam 18:59
Ah yeah, we don't have.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 19:01
Yeah.
Which is in late May, early June and males have not been described for that.
But our native prairies, it's really common and that's really distinctive.
Very.
Uh, very attractive be then.
Helianthi formus.
You know what?
She said echinacea specialist.

Droege, Sam 19:16
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 19:20
Yeah, here we anti and so on.
So those. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 19:23
Yeah, right.
So you bleed, bleed easily in the summer.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 19:25
Yep, yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 19:26
Red, Becky A and and things.
Yeah, most of ours are much more oriented towards the end of the season, asked the aster, aster loving jobs.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 19:30
So.
OK.
Yeah.
So that's a big group and it will reappear because there's there's a few species, at least in in in the Midwest that come out elsewhere in the key.
Umm, so if you if you can see if you're convinced you don't have a calandrino for whatever reason.
Then you can move on to 22.
And here we get into some kind of gets some interesting stuff here.
I don't know the I know rack andrina.
You're not talked about rack andrina before Sam, but I don't know if Arabis occurred.
I can't remember if it occurs in your neck of the woods, but couple.

Droege, Sam 20:20
It does.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 20:21
OK.
Couple of 22 you got two choices, you know scaff, andrina, erubis and scaff.
Andrine is a fairly large subgenus across in the West, but in the east we only have one and then the other sub genus choices rack Angelina.
So Arab entering the arabus is a mustard specialist and perhaps a case specialist.

Droege, Sam 20:44
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 20:45
And one thing I noticed about your descriptions in the Maryland thing, Sam is you have not found it on exotic mustards because we find it, we we find it OK, it shows up here on Barbaria vulgaris which wintercrest and I think something else.

Droege, Sam 20:54
Ohh no no we haven't.
Uh-huh.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:05
So that was that was kind of interesting.

Droege, Sam 21:07
There are.
There are a lot of weedy brassicas, but mostly we're just finding it in bottomlands, you know, on tooth work kind of situations. I.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:13
Ah, OK yeah.

Droege, Sam 21:17
Well, let me just predicate that we don't do an awful lot of collecting on flowers, particularly back in the day.
So it's possible that I'm just assuming they were on tooth wards because they were from the bottom lands and there's not.
I'm trying to think.
I don't think there's a whole lot of brassicas that are not native in bottomland forests anyway, that's that's my we're not.
We do also collect out in in the spring and barbaria, for example, is often one of the few things blooming in certain circumstances, and there'll be a lot of andrina hanging out on there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 21:53
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 22:00
Umm and but I don't I don't recall getting any arabis arabis is just uncommon and I associate it with these bottom lands, so it's not a common species.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:06
OK.
Yeah, that.
Yeah, out here, arabis.
They're couple species of arabis arabis lava data, and some others which are common in the uplands.
In these dry, rocky forests.
And that's where we find that that's where we find it to be.
So that's another difference between yeah, difference from.

Droege, Sam 22:26
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:29
No, I've not yet found it on 2/4 here because it often tooth 4.

Droege, Sam 22:33
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:34
Umm, it's, you know, probably just a matter time.
But Robertson, I think that the type specimen I think came from here, obviously the data in Western Illinois, which is not surprising, so.

Droege, Sam 22:40
So you're umm.
Right.
Yeah.
What are there's all those dry land brassicas?
Uh, I I they're not tooth words.
What are they?
What's the common names for those? Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 23:00
Well, well, we get the car.
Damini, there's another one which or sometimes called rock, cress or purple cress.

Droege, Sam 23:04
Yeah.
That's.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 23:09
It's and it it shows up on those and then also you know on the dryer upland sites from arabis and and occasionally in old fields off barbaria so.

Droege, Sam 23:10
Yeah, I'm thinking of the crescents, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Welcome.
We will keep looking too.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 23:31
So, so Andrew and Arabis is a fairly good sized B compared to the rack Andreas, which are going to follow here in a second and it's early fairly early.
So the next couple and go ahead.

Droege, Sam 23:44
Ohh my may I interrupt?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 23:45
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 23:47
So here's a a picture of 1 and one of the I think one of the clues that you would have rabbits is the clip.
Is white.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 23:56
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 23:57
Pretty noticeably white, maybe cream colored rather than yellow that on average not.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 24:01
Yellow.

Droege, Sam 24:04
You know, there's a lot of variation.
We saw Bradley eye with more white colored, but on average most of these bees have a yellow flavor to the clipeus, so this is one clue.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 24:15
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 24:17
And then I'm like Ohh bottom lands white face.
Probably a rabbis.
Then you know follow through on looking at things.
OK, sorry.
Go ahead.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 24:28
Yeah.
No, no, that's good.
That's.
Yeah, that's that's a very good characteristic there.
So the next choice in that 22, the second couple it, umm this was this subgenus rack andrina which we talked about the females and how kind of generalized they are in the same as kind of true for the males.
So they don't have their terrible fascia compared to the rabbit's people.
People.
That's hardly any interact, Andreas.
That's very weak to that at the best and also.
As six, the six sternum is tire is it's not notched and with arabis there is a slight notch and S6 and again if you can see it umm so there are two species as well.
Three species interact andrina, and we get all three in the Midwest and one of them's an amorpha specialist.
Pretty uncommon, but the other two seem to be specialists on sumac on Russ, and those two can give you separating them can give you fits.

Droege, Sam 25:36
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 25:43
Umm, the males.

Droege, Sam 25:43
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 25:45
But we're a palplus and Robert Sinai are the two, and in the Midwest brevity palplus is the common one.
Fairly common, but I'm about.

Droege, Sam 25:55
Now.
Yeah.
Well, Robertsoni is actually our more common one, but I'm wondering a couple things.
One is I have in here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:03
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 26:05
When I click on rack andrina, I also get Prigioni.
Is that.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:09
Umm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 26:10
Is that correct?
OK, what about this correct Corus Kuda?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:14
Uh, that must be Western because I don't.

Droege, Sam 26:17
OK, alright.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:18
I don't have a mental image.

Droege, Sam 26:20
All right.
I'm just wondering whether I got somehow misplaced it. OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:22
Oh, you're right.
Oh no, those are all those.
Those are all those are all subgenus according to Wally.

Droege, Sam 26:28
Yeah.
And I think an interesting thing here would be to look at the different species of.
Roots.
So you have a really a range of bloom times with really late in the in the in the.
It's really mid summer like we haven't started even blooming yet, the wing sumac, Bruce Hope Alina.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:49
Yep, coppolino.

Droege, Sam 26:53
And then we're well past when the smooth sumac bloomed.
I think staghorn, which we don't see that much, bloomed about the same time and I'm wondering if, and I guess there's definitely pulses where I think of Robert Sonii as more on the roof scope.
Alina and Brevin Palplus more on the earlier batch.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 27:18
Yeah, with the same thing.

Droege, Sam 27:18
So.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 27:19
It's even stranger here because we have a a another, an earlier species.
Ruse, the Aromatica and it and it.

Droege, Sam 27:29
Ohh yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 27:30
I mean, it looks real early, super early and it has varieties out to the West on the western margins of Missouri that are probably separate species, but they're included as a variety of aromatica and they blew him a little later.
So we've found what's Revit palplus from?
Late April into July, which I mean it can't be the same, you know, cohort that they've got to be coming out at different or else they're different species, I don't know.

Droege, Sam 27:55
Yeah, right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:00
But that is a strange yeah.

Droege, Sam 28:01
Yeah.
So we've yeah, we've seen the same where it's like it's an unusually long period when they're active for something that's probably closely associated with one thing and doesn't have multiple generations.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:08
Yes.

Droege, Sam 28:15
So therefore, one suspects there's more going on, but we don't want more going on because it's already a difficult to identify pair.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:20
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 28:25
But actually it's if you have a good collection of both it's it's it's very achievable but when you just have one a lot of times you're left a head scratching because you're comparing antenna lengths and amount of pitting and chagrining and distance of a celli to the back of the head and things like that. But.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:34
No. Yeah.
Yeah. Comparative.
Yeah, this is comparative material is pretty essential to the in this group.
I think at least until you have see all varieties, all forms, then it becomes pretty obvious, but you can think you're looking at one when you're actually look at it another you've got just a single space.

Droege, Sam 29:03
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:04
It's happened many times.

Droege, Sam 29:08
Yeah.
And I also find periodically when I'm getting one of those pairs that I'm like, what is that?
And then I spend a whole lot of time, because in discover life, of course you're using a whole combination of of characters, and it takes a while to kind of weed because they're pretty generic looking.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:19
Yep.
Yeah, totally.

Droege, Sam 29:31
And so it takes a little while and after, after a bit of time you get used to it, particularly in the females of coming down to rack andrina as like oh, that's what it is.
So it can they.
They tend to be you spend more time than you would want.
Like, Oh my God, it's Robert.
Sonii again type of thing.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:52
Yep.

Droege, Sam 29:53
Yeah, OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:54
So so.
Couple of 22 ends.
Umm the the the groups that have yellow faces or yellow on the face and that don't have a pronotal Ridge.
So when we go to 23 now we're into those, the sub genre that don't have a pro node Ridge and they don't have any yellow on the face.
And the first one of those is again andrina Violi again because like we talk sometimes the males have no yellow, sometimes it's all dark.
So it's got to show up in different places, so I've already talked about that one.
Umm so if you know you don't have.
I am Melissa.
Move on to 24 and that this is a case where it's the subgenus Plast Andrina and we only have one species in the east and it is really distinctive.
Umm, it's fairly good size and I don't know if.
Sandy, you've gotten OK great that the S6 is very distinctive.

Droege, Sam 30:49
Yeah, I've got.
I'm pulling one up here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:54
And this mail and this species.
And also if you remember the females of cartee guy had a pretty modified high tibial spur, strongly curved with a broadened base.

Droege, Sam 31:06
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:08
The males have pretty much the same thing.

Droege, Sam 31:10
Yeah.
Uh, I also find the proportial triangle to be very distinctive.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:18
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yes.

Droege, Sam 31:20
It's it's hard to describe the pattern.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:21
Oh, that's good.

Droege, Sam 31:23
It's hard to describe the pattern on the proposal triangle.
I'll do a shot, but it's pretty uniquely striate with its sparse wiggly lines and things.
We'll we'll show that.
So here is the tip of the abdomen from underneath and this is the rim of S6 and we'll I'll change the angle a little bit here, but you can see that this is all raised.
So here's the plane, and then it sharply turns up.
And what we'll see at a slightly different angle is that I call them dog ears that there are literally points on the far edges of this entirely upturned section.
So in Robert Tonioli and the rack andrina group, I guess in general this is a very uniform and relatively short upturned area and strongly upturned.
But the entire raised area here is about the same height with this this species you have, it's taller, more dramatic, and you have these big pointy ears at the end.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 32:20
Yep.

Droege, Sam 32:30
Let me let me spin this a little bit up and I'll turn it to the side, maybe see if we can get it back in there. Oops.
And take a quick look at.
The.
We got a lot of hair going on here.
Well, you can see the the tip, so I I don't want to spend too much time here, but this tip is sticking way out from the.
So this is the the top.
This is the Turia here, and so this tip is and this is all the hairs and the area.
So that tip is there.
Let me I'll see what the heck.
I'm gonna spin it a little bit more here and see if we can catch it.
Got some pin action here that's blocking things a little.
In the future, of course, we'll have three dimensional, not visuals of all of this. Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 33:37
There you go.
Yeah, that's good.

Droege, Sam 33:44
So you can see the tips now a little bit more.
So this is the sterna here.
Here's this raised right angled rim floating up from the base of S6 and then here are these dog ears right there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:01
Great, good shot.

Droege, Sam 34:02
All right, I'm going to flip to the see if we can get a shot of.
The skew tell him or the proposal triangle rather and.
Also.
Mentioned we might take a look at the tibial spur.
Just very thin in this in the mail, but banana like and it's shape so that should have it here.
Jump up a little bit.
But yeah, they're big.
They tend to, I think they're on rosaceous materials a lot.
So you pull them off of trees.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:56
That's good.

Droege, Sam 34:56
Shrubs.
Yeah.
So that's the pattern.
It's hard to a little bit.
Hard to describe, but it's, you know, I look at that and go, oh, that's a critique.
So just one of those things I can't tell you how to describe that sparse, that chain netted chain and the wiggles are pretty distinctive.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:26
Yeah, I think that fits reticulate.
I mean that kind of fits my.
Definition. Particulate.

Droege, Sam 35:32
Yeah, we still equipment.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:35
So yeah, that's a that's a very common, I mean in this, if you're collecting bees in the spring in the east, you're probably gonna run across this thing.

Droege, Sam 35:43
It kind of depends on where you are.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:43
They're fairly.

Droege, Sam 35:45
We're sort of at the end.
I I can't remember what's going on to the South, but we are a bit on the edge like Eastern Shore gets relatively few of these.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:52
Hmm.

Droege, Sam 35:55
You go into the mountains, you get a lot.
I'm not gonna try and hunt down that the the tibial spur because that's pretty straightforward to look for.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:58
Yeah.
OK.
Yeah, it's a pretty good size species, you know, 101112 millimeters or maybe a little bigger.
So if if you're convinced you don't have plastic andrina critique guy, you move on to a couple of 25.
If I remembered these things correctly and we visit micro andrina again because there are a number of species, at least four in the east that I could think of where the males have no yellow or white on the face at all, they face is completely dark and that species like.
Illinois.
Milan Acroa these are all little bees, but this.

Droege, Sam 36:45
Is it neat?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 36:46
It's the group.

Droege, Sam 36:46
Is negre too?
I can't remember, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 36:48
Yeah.
Yes.
Yep. Yep.
Yep, that's a Willow specialist.
So there's a a pretty good size contingent of micro Andreas that don't mails don't have yellow in the face, but they do have the same wing characteristics so.

Droege, Sam 36:52
Yeah.
It tends to be a group if I remember right that many of these species are probably specialists and some some we don't know a whole lot about like a Neo Nana.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:13
Yes.

Droege, Sam 37:19
We see that in woods, but I don't know what it's doing in those woods.
Kind of thing, but it I bet you anything it's on on one of the vernal plants doing some, you know, specializing but again not enough collecting and it's not super dumb.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:32
Yeah.

Shaun McCoshum joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:35
Yeah, there.
No, I don't think we have any records out out here.

Droege, Sam 37:39
Uh.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:42
Yeah, lamella teargas.
And other one that's that's one that has super sharp Dalia like a sword, and they're on faciliy usually, at least in the Midwest and and some other.

Droege, Sam 37:52
Yep, yeah.

Lisa Overall (Guest) left the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:55
So it's a it's a specials group.
They're they're number of species and Sam said a lot of them are just gonna be on certain in certain places at certain times on certain plants.
And you kind of have to seek them out.

Droege, Sam 38:08
A lot of them, I will say, also maybe all of them, but at least some of them have a a bit of a greenish metallic Sheen.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:18
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 38:18
It's a little subtle, I would say subtle, and, but it's so it's not like aquarela, certainly, and it's not quite as distinct as I like.
As Confucius.
But it's approaching that, like negre often is, is pretty pretty green metallic, and there's not most of the other endrina are straight St had black.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:33
Yep, totally.

Droege, Sam 38:40
You would not to make any, uh statement that they there was a metallic nature to the integument.
But in this group, a lot of these personata also a little bit metallic green.
Uh, I would say umm melona croa.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:57
No, I agree.
Yeah.
No, I agree too.

Droege, Sam 38:59
Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:59
That's a little bit, but again, you know Sam's right, it's it's subtle.
It's not like it's gonna hit you, and you might not even see it until you get it under magnification about it's faint, but it's there.

Droege, Sam 39:11
Yeah, but I like zizia and vernalis.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:13
It's there.

Droege, Sam 39:16
I don't think have that.
I think they're black.
I would say not the least out.
What do you think?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:23
Yeah, I I think I see some that it's, you know, depending on maybe the light, you know the condition of the specimen.

Droege, Sam 39:24
I I don't see them that much.
Uh-huh.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:31
I think that I can see it, but it's of among them all.
It's the subtlest, you know.

Droege, Sam 39:37
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:39
And I guess not a characteristic of the whole subject is, but it can be a helpful.
You got a little tiny bee and it's kind of got this metallic Sheen.
Uh, you should think like around here.
So then, if that's not what you got, move on to 26 and again that's we revisit Cal Andrina, which we beat to death probably.
But again, this there are a few species and I think the only in the Midwest and on the edge of the eastern edge of the Great Plains that do have they have no yellow on the face and hazy eyes one which is a big, big big thing.

Droege, Sam 40:18
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 40:21
So that's why it shows up here.
There's a possibility of encountering one of those calendaring species that doesn't have any yellow, and most of them are from the Great Plains, but they might show up in the Midwest or someplace.
So that's we, OK, calendaring A and then now we come to 27 and this is where Mike has hit the brick wall.
Umm, we we get we 27 splits out track andrina and scrapped her opsis from the other sub genre which we'll talk about in a second.
But at this point in the key, uh, you track andrina and scrapped her opsis are two groups that have a.

JP joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 41:05
Propidium similar to what Sam showed with critique guide.
That is, it's coarsely sculptured reticulate, it's not smooth in any way shape or form.
And so that's if you can recognize that that's an important separation between track injuring and scrapped drops and all those that follow which are male andrina you andrina thi sandrina.
These are species that the the dorsal surface of the property and this quite smooth.
It might have some wrinkles, but nothing like what you saw in her eye.
At least in the east.
And then the separate, yeah.

Droege, Sam 41:45
Sure. Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 41:46
So I didn't have time to time to type it, but separating track entering the species from scrap drops.
Males couldn't be tricky until you pretty much that, uh, suffered for couple hours and figured out the differences, and some of them are genitalia.
So if you can't see the genitalia, that's that's that's an issue.
But the real common one in scrapped drops.
This is imitator X, at least in the Midwest.
It's arguably maybe the most common andrina in the spring.

Droege, Sam 42:16
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 42:16
It's everywhere and the males usually have a slightly swollen mid on the hind tibia, tibia, tibia.

Droege, Sam 42:24
Yeah.
Femur.
Tibia, right? Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 42:29
There was a very slight, subtle swelling medially and boy, it took me a while to appreciate that, but it's once you see it, it's pretty consistent and the other ones have a very, very narrow stick like stock like tibia and I don't.

Droege, Sam 42:42
Yep, it's it's expands, yeah.
So the other ones have their parallel sided but also straight the entire length relatively skinny and I would say the first of all I would say imitate Trix slash Morrison.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 42:52
Yep.

Droege, Sam 42:59
Ella, whatever that mystery is, and that the swollen part is about 2/3 down from the where the femur and the tibia join.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 43:00
Call, right, right, right.

Droege, Sam 43:12
So to the posterior end of that, the area and it is a slight but noticeable.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 43:14
The.

Droege, Sam 43:20
And then it then it goes back.
It doesn't swell up and stay that way.
It swells and then next down just at the.
Far apical end and yes, it takes a while and you wanna see a bunch of known specimens to get it because track entry no often will have.
What would appear to be a noticeable Corina defining the in the proposal triangle?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 43:47
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 43:51
Uh at the where it goes to the posterior face, but a lot of times it's no in the females.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 43:52
The poster, yeah.

Droege, Sam 43:59
It's pretty clear, I would say almost all the time in the males, it's they're smaller.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 44:02
Yeah. Yep.

Droege, Sam 44:07
You know, they're not as defined.
It can be a little murky.
Usually you have hints and then sometimes with the track entering because the track endrina females often have a, umm recessed margin or what do they?
What is that called the the the pressed area of the of T2 goes well into.
Usually it's half or more of the segment, almost never less than that, whereas most andrina have at most about 1/6 of the the T2 the the rim is depressed and but in the mails that doesn't really work that well.
Every once in a while you can see a faint, depressed area that's well to the interior, so.
Well, greater much greater than 1/6, but a lot of times they look like all the other andrina.
So the T2 isn't very well and I have to tell you that I have struggled so much and I'm not sure I've got great material at the Smithsonian that I almost never identify the track andrina males.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:04
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 45:18
They're just track endrina species.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:18
Right.

Droege, Sam 45:21
There's a few that are relatively straightforward, but I just don't feel confident in my identifications of that group.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:29
Yeah, I say it's I think in terms of males, it's the most difficult group of andrina.
The east the males are just.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 45:38
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:39
So the the the genetic, the genitalia, unlike a lot of other.

Droege, Sam 45:39
So yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:44
And during the subgenre or the differences are so minor and a lot of the track endrina species that that's, I wouldn't say they're useless, but it's not as helpful as is in some other groups.

Droege, Sam 45:58
Yeah, becomes more comparative.
Like if you have a good collection then yes description wise separation probably no.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:00
Yep.
Tough.

Droege, Sam 46:08
And of course, most of the time people aren't pulling genitalia.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:10
Yeah, right.

Droege, Sam 46:10
So or even know what to look for?
Like me, that because we don't, we don't.
And so yeah, it's a I, it's something that I need to personally spend.
I've gotta told ton of track and generous spa mails to play with at some point, but I have been putting that off seem like lazy Blossom Meals dialect this group.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:33
That's it.
They're they're they're.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's not like they're just one or two tracking drainers there's, you know, eight or nine.

Droege, Sam 46:42
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:43
And it can be.
Yeah. So.

Droege, Sam 46:45
We'll even within the even within the females.
You I I periodically get some murky specimens, and I wonder, like, OK, are there some more species in here that we're just not discriminating with, say, Miranda?
And that that group there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 47:04
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 47:07
So I see a lot of variation or Virginia.
And I'm like, hmm, I'm not 100% sure here and I don't know that anyone has really done due diligence at the species level with molecular stuff, which would probably be super useful, but.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 47:23
Yeah, it would be a good project, definitely.
So at that point, at 27, if you are pretty sure you don't have a track endrina or scrapped or opsis, the options become limited.
Umm.
And you've got these five traditionally speaking, these five other subgenre in the east and.
That fit, you know, except for you, andrina and thy sandrina.
The the other three teeny andrina, Sandrina, Melandri are fairly distinctive.
Jeannie Andrina is the one andrina that's introduced and the females remember they have a super flat Claudius super flat and usually orangish legs and the males aren't all that different.
The males also have a flat clypeus, very densely, densely, finely, punctate tourguides.

Droege, Sam 48:20
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:21
And generally in the Midwest, we find them Midsummer ish on things in the pea family.

Droege, Sam 48:28
Yeah, a particularly.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:29
And.

Droege, Sam 48:31
What's that common roadside crown vetch?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:34
Yeah.
OK.
And Victoria.

Droege, Sam 48:37
So also also sometimes it's like ohh you know there it's a little bit mysterious, but they also have really strong bidentate laboral process that I find helpful to like nail it.
Yeah.
OK, that's what.
That's what we're what we're looking at.
So that combination works.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:58
And so that's just one species.
That's the only species in tiny andrina.
However, there was a I think we meant to just earlier, but there's a recent publication from Europe where the subgenus is more diverse and the one of the questions that came out of that my paper is maybe what we have isn't what we think we have.
So we call it ticketing andrina.
Well, kella, but there are.
There's one or two other species in Europe that are very, very, very similar and so, uh, I think somebody needs to look at that.

Droege, Sam 49:33
Mm-hmm.
Is there still a notion that the Andrina will?
Kela is not native to North America.
It's just more of a questionable which is the right name for it.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:48
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.

Droege, Sam 49:50
Good.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:50
Yeah.
How I got introduced this interesting question you know all time.

Droege, Sam 49:54
Yeah, I mean, it was been here for over 100 years, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:57
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's a ground nester, you know?
So world, you're looking all our other introduced species up.

Droege, Sam 49:59
Right, exactly it.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:05
The vast majority that above ground cavity nesters are cavity nesters, and that's interesting.

Droege, Sam 50:10
And I want to say that it first showed up in the Midwest too, but I'm not 100% sure I have that security rate.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:14
Aye, I don't remember.
That at all.
Yeah, I need to check on that though.
Thanks for reminding me of that one.

Droege, Sam 50:20
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:20
That which would be unique, that's the other thing.
I mean everything else start.

Droege, Sam 50:23
Yeah.
Well, except for let let the syphilis.
Because that was described from North Dakota, of all places.
So Hyleas left the syphilis, but you could come up with stories on that, one that have to do with shipping of stems and things like that.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:39
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 50:41
We'll Keller is a much more difficult story to come up with because, like you could say ohh was in ballast on ships.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:48
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 50:51
Maybe Great Lakes ships or something, but still ballast and ships.
That's rough.
Like you're not.
It's not like, ohh, we're carefully moving some nested there.
You know, there's sea water and it's sitting around and it just doesn't make any sense at all.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:06
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 51:06
I don't know if they nest in pots, but I've not heard that.
So who knows?
But I keep thinking that maybe it's wrong.
Maybe it actually is a native species, but seems like the cards are stacked against it being a native.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:21
Yeah, it's abundant in here in Saint Louis.
In the city, it's a common common species and rarely do we find it out in natural habitats.

Droege, Sam 51:25
You know.
Yeah, and yeah, it's a weedy, weedy thing we, because we have so much crown vetch, we get it a lot along highways and roadsides and places like that.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:38
OK.

Droege, Sam 51:41
So we see it quite abundantly, particularly more Appalachia, northern parts of Maryland.
And the up in the in the countryside so.
I don't know quite what to make of it.
I see.
Uh Mill andrina down there.
Another another group, very difficult to tell species apart.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 52:01
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 52:05
We do have a an Excel spreadsheet that we can send people.
I have spent a bunch of time on that one.
I feel pretty comfortable separating out the males, so people want that spreadsheet.
It's, you know, it's a it's still is kind of a weight of evidence, but and it's difficult to do that within discover life, although we attempted to Add all that just becomes so overwhelming amount of information that the Excel spreadsheet actually does a much better job at indicating what the unique set and it's a set of characters are for each of the mill andrina because it's not like I don't think any of them trying to think.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 52:35
Uh-huh.

Droege, Sam 52:50
I don't know that any of them have maybe Carlini with black.
It's black hairs along its face.
Almost none of them have one thing that's even if you know it's melon, Drina, that will give you the species.
You have to look at this and this and this, Daniel.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:05
Yep.
And they, and they generally tend to be size.

Maffei, Clare J 53:08
And I I just wanna let anybody know we've had nobody in the chat today by the way.
It's been a very quiet but very informative, but they're just stunned, blown away by your progress this week, Mike.

Droege, Sam 53:17
They're stunned.

Maffei, Clare J 53:22
If you would have received that spreadsheet that Sam's talking about in the like way back in the day, early emails with me in a whole packet.

Droege, Sam 53:32
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 53:32
So if you want to search for your welcome packet, usually I that would be a good keyword in your email to find that file.
It's also saved on the Microsoft team.

Droege, Sam 53:46
Right.
Do you want to say anything else about the the other groups there or we can talk about it next time, but.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 53:52
Well, uh, yeah, same same andrina.
UM, they're just a couple species in the east and Ace and I and the other?
Umm, those are fairly small, medium, small to medium size, but they have the males have a fairly distinct.
Pattern on the dorsal surface of propidium.

Droege, Sam 54:13
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:13
Not as dramatic as critique, but equally as distinctive.
And it's much more finely, delicately reticulate, but it just once you see it, it's pretty distinctive, and there are no the tour guides are pretty much in punctate.

Droege, Sam 54:26
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:29
Umm.
And I think very common spring species supers common in the Midwest and finally go ahead.

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Droege, Sam 54:37
I also use ohh on on these.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:40
No, go ahead.

Kranz, Rachel (She/Her/Hers) (DNR) left the meeting

Droege, Sam 54:41
On nasonia I use the fact that the the hind tibia are greatly expanded, so very cuneate I guess would be the way to do it and the hairs are very but but the scopal hairs are are relatively thin, so it's a.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:51
What?

Droege, Sam 54:59
It's also a pretty distinctive look, so the combination, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
We're talking about the mails the and then, but I I actually use the little projecting.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 55:03
Yeah.
Yeah, but you're you're.
Ohh yeah, say.

Droege, Sam 55:12
Uh.
Seeing on the the chest above about it, it will if it's a good specimen, you can almost always find it a lot of times you have pin or it's gooped up.
It's right.
It's not exactly on the ventral side of the thorax, but it's pretty darn close.
It's really one of those things that once you know where it is, you can find it, but it's very difficult to describe and it's a very it's just a small nub.
I have absolutely no idea why it's there.
I think a couple other, Andreas, have it too, but it's part of my if I have any question about this mail, which is a very generic looking species otherwise than the than the proportial triangle.
I looked for that and I look at the antenna, which I'm not gonna say is that distinctive, but it's got a a particular look to it, relatively short F1 and I kind of have it memorized and there's a dark, a little dark area to it that is helpful.
Otherwise very generic thing.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:25
And then.

Maffei, Clare J 56:25
Maybe you can show us next time.
Well, like Mike did, you did you think that those would be written up next or is not yet?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:31
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll you know, I I just there, it's handwritten, but I'll.

Maffei, Clare J 56:34
Yay.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:36
Yeah, but it might.
It's again, it's a first draft and you know, so you know that goes, yes.

Droege, Sam 56:40
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 56:41
That's why we're here.
And you have two weeks because we don't we we won't be doing this next week.
I will be away.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:48
OK, what about?

Maffei, Clare J 56:50
The deadline and everything.

Droege, Sam 56:50
All right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:51
What about down the road and the other general or groups that you're thinking of?
Sam or Claire?

Maffei, Clare J 56:58
We've gotten a lot of calls for Lacey Lawson.

Droege, Sam 56:59
You know, we we could.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 57:01
No.

Droege, Sam 57:02
We could go there and we've got.

Maffei, Clare J 57:04
Or at least do the subgroups.

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Droege, Sam 57:08
You can.
That's a good place to start and we could invite Jason or.
His uh his grad student Joel to do some talking to about some of these things.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 57:17
Draw.

Droege, Sam 57:24
Uh, so maybe.
Claire, do you wanna contact Jason and have him?

Maffei, Clare J 57:28
Yeah, I can start an email on that.

Droege, Sam 57:31
Yeah.
And then we have lots of local experience too.
So I think the three of us are, if Rob wants to join 2, there's a lot to talk about there.

Maffei, Clare J 57:42
Yeah, I think I think a lot of people would enjoy this.

Droege, Sam 57:44
And I don't know, but I don't know if Jason has.
Well, yeah.
So I don't know how much.
So talk about to Jason like we're doing these weekly and we can spend easily.
Several weeks on the the lazy gross of these different groups and talk at the species level.
If we want, we'll have to decide how far to go in on umm on the information, do we just stay at the the purported?
I shouldn't say purported the subgenera.
Or do we start dividing further down into some of these groups?
I mean, people can in the in the chat group or maybe you can put it out to the groups as a whole.
I think that's often 50% or more of any collection, particularly using bowls, and so everyone has to deal with them.
So maybe we wanna do a deep dive and just go at the species level.
We can use a combination of Jason's key and discover life and cheat.
Cheat.
We have a CHEAT SHEET for it too, and that's probably useful because they are.
Everyone has to deal with them and they're tricky.

Maffei, Clare J 58:58
I think it'll be popular.
So I'll start that email chain and we'll see what we can get going.

Droege, Sam 59:03
Alright, alright, let's alright.
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:09
OK.
Thank you, Claire.

Maffei, Clare J 59:10
Home.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:11
Thank you, Sam.

Droege, Sam 59:11
Thanks, Claire.

Maffei, Clare J 59:12
Thank you.

Droege, Sam 59:12
And also, if people aren't on the B monitoring List, survey new collides taxonomy has come out.
And so I'm not clear what am I saying.
You serrini where more mixing around of the genera has taken place.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:24
No.

Droege, Sam 59:30
I haven't evaluated it, but it was.
It's going to we'll we'll have to talk about it and at some point and it changes things again in terms of like, yeah, the the different groups seeing a gloss up pepper napus and and more.
Still more fun.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:47
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 59:48
Yes. Yay.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:51
Alrighty.

Maffei, Clare J 59:53
Thank you everyone.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 59:54
Alright, thanks.

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Droege, Sam 59:56
All right.

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