90_Andrena subgenera 8 males_Mike Arduser_July 12 2023

July 12, 2023, 5:02PM

1h 9m 10s

Droege, Sam 0:04
Guide yeah this is pre I think we I don't know that we I don't think we continued Mike after you left.
And we went on and did.
Umm so serotonina and a couple other things at the species level.
So I think where we had left was this is Mike's guide to the subgenera of Andrina and he split out right at the top.
Top the things with yellow on their face and things without yellow on their face.
And I'm almost certain.

Maffei, Clare J 0:36
And by the way, we are in the males got for if anybody who hasn't joined us before males.

Droege, Sam 0:42
Meals.
Yep, and yeah, there's a few females with some yellow, but not very many.
And then so where I believes here, starting in on the dark faced.
Members of the endrina males and we.

Ellen Lamborn (Guest) joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 0:59
Well, well, that the the first couple of the key splits, those males that have a pronotal Ridge from those that don't.

Droege, Sam 1:01
Yeah, go ahead.
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:10
And so we're still in the the subgenera males that have a pronotal Ridge.

Droege, Sam 1:16
Ohh OK so.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:17
It's some of those have yellow and then some of those that don't have the pronotal range also have yellow.
So yeah, we will, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:23
OK.
So we'll get to those further down, OK.
All right, so these are.
Yeah.
It's been a while since I looked at this.
These are endrina with pronotal ridges and have no yellow at this point.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:33
Me too.

Droege, Sam 1:38
We've covered the yellow with paranodal ridges.
Now we're doing no yellow dark face from Noodle Ridge, and we may have covered this a little bit, but it's probably a good starting place to go back to till endrina here and talk about the sulcus that's crosses the pronoun Ridge.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:42
Right.

Droege, Sam 1:59
If you want to mention that a little bit.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:02
Yeah, that's a good a good place to start. Exam.

Matthew Carlson joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:06
Yeah.
The subgenus Thailand, Rina TTYL, is another sub genus that's PTI.
So this is to subgenus Thailand.
Garena do you YL and males and females both have a pronotal Ridge that is crossed or interrupted by a narrow groove or sulcus.
And it's usually pretty evident if you can get a good look at the pronotum and no other group has that.
I mean, that's unique.
Aye, to this, to this subgenus, this subgroup of andrina.

Droege, Sam 2:44
Yep, and in. Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 2:46
And in the east in the east, there are only a handful of species.
There are more elsewhere, but so we have perplexed.
Rethrow gaster.
Wilma Tai was the three that come to mind.

Droege, Sam 3:01
Yeah, that's a three that I would recognize as eastern and yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:05
And they're big.

Droege, Sam 3:09
And will matay is the one that I don't see very much out here and may it's a little bit foggy because it seems to me that it's possible that I've overlooked them because you know, if I see dark face, you know, big pronotal collar, I I also look at the celly and the celly are recessed by a couple assally diameters very similar to malandrino.

Winsauer, Joshua joined the meeting

Spring, MaLisa joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 3:37
And I guess maybe they're sticking them in malandrino now that with the the new version.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 3:41
Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's the latest.

Droege, Sam 3:44
Yeah.
And which again, we've got to do a old versus new version for Discover life.
Right now you're you're looking at what is as amounts to the old subgenus version, but I think right at the moment it's still useful to use that because it's morphologically based.
And so you can find your way more easily than I molecular.
Like you can't, like, pull out the like.
Well, I extracted the molecules and Nope, we're not quite at that level, no.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 4:16
So, yeah.
Well, Matai is is in the upper Midwest, is fairly common in Wally the Burges revision.
He thought otherwise.
He didn't have many specimens, but in recent years it's shown up a lot in.

Droege, Sam 4:31
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 4:33
So.

Droege, Sam 4:34
He also said that uh, that Perplexo was not very common.
Or maybe that was Mitchell who said that, which is one of our most I find it to be one of our most common species in Maryland.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 4:45
Yeah, it's very common common out here as well, yeah.

Droege, Sam 4:47
Yeah.
So I'm not sure what the what the differences there are.
Anyway, there's a lot.
There are quite a few records out here for Rumaty, but I'm not.
I just.
It's just the kind of thing that when I was working in South Dakota, I picked up some and then out East. I'm not.
I don't know if I'm overlooking him or there really aren't that many.
OK.
So, umm, so the sulcus is basically the way I think of it is a groove a across the Ridge in this case.
So a sulcus in general might you can tell me if I'm wrong about this is like a trough, so it's it's used to describe a trough like feature somewhere on a bee.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:34
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 5:41
And in this case, it's crossing the Ridge.
If we have time, I'll try and pull it up.
I don't wanna spend too much time trying.
It's hard to see because of the angle of the heads, but I might, but we may have pulled up last time.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:50
The.

Droege, Sam 5:57
For all you know.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 5:58
I think we did, yeah.
And again, if you have a good look at the Pro Pro nodum, it's pretty evident.
But like same said, a lot of times ahead in the is pressed up against the pronomen and we covered with hairs.
I think it can be a challenge to see if you don't have a good view of the OR no.

Droege, Sam 6:17
Yeah.
So and that's, you know, you have multiple guides and guide approaches, so I can discover life, you would have a different Ave to coming up with the species that aren't necessarily based on having to see the sulcus, but it has its own set of issues.
You know, choices have to be made and and decisions made and things have to be seen and properly ascribed in all these kinds of things.
That's why it's so fun to look at specimens and not know what you're looking at.
OK.
So the remainder here in this subsection are gonna have the Ridge, but it's not gonna have be have the the crossing through the crossing sulcus in it.
And that takes us to the large endrina group.
So this this is the umm who's that properly called senzu strictu?
Or is it just the Endrina subgenus?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 7:22
The yeah that.
Yeah, both both.

Droege, Sam 7:24
I don't know how that works.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 7:27
Both work, umm, and this is a big group and kind of a challenging group.
I think there's a lot of lot of species in the east and.
They some of them have some of the males have a tooth or sharp angle or projection at the base ventral base of the mandible.
Uh, that not all of them, but some of them.
And that's all.
That's a unique feature, relatively or the OR.

Droege, Sam 7:58
I've got a I've got a picture here of that and this is on umm andrina makeup Peninsula which has I think the biggest tooth of all of them.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 8:02
Ohh yeah OK.

Droege, Sam 8:10
So it's something that we can see.
Let's see if I can get this to go full screen.
There we go.
So here's the mandible.
And here's this, it's really in fact, I often use that as.
Ohh, that's probably matchup peninsulas.
The the size of that tooth in other species, you know, it's more subtle.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 8:32
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 8:32
Zoom in here a little bit.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 8:34
But that's the location and it's it's a strong, sharp projection.

Droege, Sam 8:42
Yeah, it's really unlike the females.
It's really there's a point.
It's really noticeable, whereas the others it's going to just sweep around like that.
OK, so but you're the subgenus is not defined by simply having teeth in the Discover life guide.
Anything with a tooth is in its own big it's not really a couplet, but it's it has its own character.
So if you see a tooth, you can go right to that section and then it steps you through all the different characters that separate out the toothed mandibles. UM.
Species of Andrina subgenus andrina.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 9:30
So and if you don't see it, if you get to this point in the key and you don't see the the ventral basal tooth on the mandible, look for the Mailer space because those that don't have the basal tooth having melder space and we've talked about that a number of times doesn't have to be big or long, but it's, uh, there would be a malar space present and.

Droege, Sam 9:51
Umm.
Yeah.
And and don't some of the ones with the basil tooth also have a malar space?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 10:04
Oh yeah.
Yes, right.

Droege, Sam 10:05
Yeah. OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 10:06
You're right.
Yeah, good point.
So either those characters well, it's in the east of, you know, take you to the Andrina subgenus.
Then that's where that's where the fun starts.

Droege, Sam 10:17
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if in the in the chat, if someone wants to see a noticeable malar space, I can go up a specimen for that.
So, well, actually, let's go back here.
Let's see if this OK.
So it kind of shows up.
It's always a little murky here, but so here's the so this is andrina matchup.
Penances.
Another Willow specialist.
So here's the I OK, there's a little short rim of the eye here that's distinct from all the compound.
Umm.
I'm a tedia.
Here's the mandible.
There's a lot of reflection going on here.
You're looking for what's gonna be condyles where the the basically the mandible hooks into the head capsule and then there's a muscle, which is right there a little bit reflective that's going is offset.
So it's never in the middle, right?
So it's pulling the mandible open and I resume close.
And now if you look between maybe I'll run it up the final level of that I have here you can see between here and here and actually all across a pretty significant space that in other species of endrina, this edge of the mandible is gonna kiss right up to that I rim and you won't see that.
So it's small and you know.
It would be small by many people's definition, but it's huge in terms of that that length there it's huge for an endrina, so it's not like let's say, bombast fervida S or something where it's going to be.
Longer than the width of the mandible.
It's never that big or even as collides either, but that's big for andrina and that's what you're looking for.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 12:14
Yeah, that's a good example because that that demonstrates how how subtle it can be, but that's definitely the case where the Mailer space is present.
Sure.

Droege, Sam 12:24
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 12:25
What present?

Droege, Sam 12:26
So Andrina has lots of characters, but you tend to to have to think about them in the same sort of way, which is like very precisely.

Roshan Vignarajah joined the meeting

Roshan Vignarajah 12:31
This sort of way, which is like very precisely so.

Droege, Sam 12:36
And so you can't just knock off a but wait, I'm getting some echo.

Roshan Vignarajah 12:39
Just knock off.
Wait, I'm giving the make up.

Droege, Sam 12:44
Sally, you might can you turn off your mic?

Roshan Vignarajah 12:44
Totally. You might.
Can you turn off your light?

Droege, Sam 12:48
I'm thinking I'm echoing on you.

Roshan Vignarajah 12:48
Everything going on you.

Droege, Sam 12:51
You don't have your mic on.
OK, alright.

Roshan Vignarajah 12:53
Alright, I'm not sure what.

Droege, Sam 12:53
I'm not sure what it is then, so I I'm just totally distracted by echoes.

Roshan Vignarajah 12:56
So.

Maffei, Clare J 12:56
Roshan.

Droege, Sam 13:01
Roshan, do you have your mic on mute your computer when?

Maffei, Clare J 13:04
Roshan, mute your computer.
Mute your computer.

Droege, Sam 13:14
Well, it might be might be working.
So just go into the zoom session and make sure that you're on mute.
Maybe Sydney, could you just overlook there?
Alright, sorry complications.

Maffei, Clare J 13:24
Yeah, it seems like it's good now.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 13:27
Yeah, it's good.

Droege, Sam 13:27
OK.
I think we're good. OK.
So yeah, just mentioning that a lot of times you have to pay very close to attention to very fine details.
And if you can't see that, then you know it's easy to start going down wrong paths.
It's true.
Almost anything, but it seems like Andrina has many, many characters, but they're all a little, you know, full of interpretations sometimes.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:00
Yeah.
And and females and males both are like that.

Droege, Sam 14:05
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:06
OK, uh, are we now?

Droege, Sam 14:09
So we're without without the the angle or tooth or or a big mall or space.
So we're going to here to 11 till andrina.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 14:19
Right.
And this is a small subgenus.
Uh only do species in the east and then it just one out West could be maybe I got that wrong.
But there are almost 2 two in the east, and they're a little different.
They're both special Poland specialists on different plans, but the Galea are very, very sharply pointed and almost sword like in one species.
And actually both and then the other.
If you can't see, that's the maxillary palps are also elongated relative to other uh species of andrina.
And that's when you first look at the the maxillary palps.
If you haven't looked at the normal situation andrina, they may not look long to you, but relatively speaking they are so.
So those are two good characters, but they involve the mouth parts and sometimes you can't see.

Droege, Sam 15:19
Good luck seeing and figuring out where the maxillary palps are.
If you don't have the tongue extended and you really can't post talk extended tongue, I would say right that you can't post talk.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:32
Right, yeah.

Droege, Sam 15:33
Extended tongue you have to do it when the specimens fresh and I'm not even sure how well things work when you have them in a bull trap.
Can you use the extracted tongue out of a bull trap thing or after you've you've?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:47
If they've been out, if they've been in alcohol, it's I don't need to bother trying to cause things, just get broken they things.

Droege, Sam 15:52
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 15:54
But often I've noticed with the males that the palps are so long that they usually are visible, and usually the Galea is visible enough.

Droege, Sam 16:02
Mm-hmm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 16:06
You can see the tips that they're not rounded off, they're sharply pointed.
So usually I think even in messed up specimens, you can if you're looking to see those features, at least so.

Droege, Sam 16:18
Great.
So a good yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 16:20
So yeah, this thing go ahead.
No, go ahead.

Droege, Sam 16:23
As you can say that both the distance and originea I think distance I don't see that very often have compound here scopal hair too and yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 16:33
Ohh, good good one the females.

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Droege, Sam 16:36
And which others do too.
But it's a good indicator that ohh sorry.
We're talking about mails now.
Ohh sorry, never mind, but that does distance also have these strongly forked S8?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 16:42
Yeah.
Good question.

Droege, Sam 16:51
So in Erie Genier, that's a really good character because sometimes I am a little bit.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 16:52
Yeah, recall.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 16:57
Ohh yeah, what is that?
Is that what I'm looking at?
Because I I'm not focused on the tongue, I'm more looking at the head capsule and things and but if I see.
It's the SOS8IS. Often the segment I can try and pull one out here.
It's really distinctive.
It's like almost like a a why, like a?
It's not even cleft.
It's almost like a a, A, A, some kind of a spear.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 17:24
Yeah.
Yeah, very deeply, very deeply forked, yeah.

Droege, Sam 17:27
That's.
Yeah.
And as far as I know, I can't think of anything else that has something, anything like that other than.
I wonder if distance does, but I see that so rarely or and I'd never see palette of scopa.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 17:42
Yeah, I've never seen that one.
That Western one, it's common out West, but I never seen it.

Droege, Sam 17:44
In.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 17:46
So yeah, this stands as a geranium, a geranium maculatum specialist, and then the other.

Droege, Sam 17:50
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 17:53
They're genie height.
Despite the name is a specialist on spring beauties claytonia, that doesn't mean they are occasionally other plans.
It's just generally speaking, if you want to find them, those are their main hosts.

Droege, Sam 18:05
Yeah, if you wanna go ahead, Mike, I'm gonna come and try and pull and get a air genier mail.
Because that's a really nice feature.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 18:13
OK.
So yeah, those are both probably one of the most common spring bees is that it's tail and drena here Genia, at least in the Midwest.
I mean, it's hard to go someplace.
First of all, in the spring where spring beauties are common and they're common, they're almost a lawn weed in many parts of the Saint Louis region, and they're in, you know, music, forests.
And they're on prairies.
So that's a widespread plant and with several different species, and almost always that bees associated with it.
So let's a good good indication.
Of course, many other bees go to spring beauties too.
And just because you're buying Bee Spring beauty doesn't mean it's going to be telling.
During that year, Genei.
But it's going to be one of them.

Droege, Sam 19:00
Yes.
Yeah, normally these specialists are are are way on the uncommon end of the spectrum in terms of absolute numbers and things like that that you would not.
It's like like distance is a good example where we are that we hardly get any of the.

Mike Slater (Guest) joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 19:21
Of the geraniums, the big geraniums.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 19:24
Ohh.

Droege, Sam 19:24
But the Aerogen near is can be unbelievably common and the they love going into particularly white bowls in in traps if and.
But sadly, the introduced species of Vernon Kulus that some lesser celandine I forget the scientific names is now completely taking over many of the bottom land habitats which were formerly dominated by spring beauties.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 19:49
Ohh.
That's starting to happen here.

Droege, Sam 20:00
It's really, really horrible and like small order streams and major floodplains, they all get it.
And yeah, it trashes the entire community of.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 20:09
The foreign it's a.
Yeah, they formed forms.
A carpet.
I mean, it's just like a.

Droege, Sam 20:16
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a little bit, uh, toxic too.
To the its neighbors.
Alright, I've got a specimen on deck here.
Just wanna show the umm the only to bring down the magnification here but show the S8.
So S8 is something we haven't talked a whole lot about here because it tends not to be in my impression is not something that falls as distinctive to add a subgenus level, but sometimes can be really useful for splitting out species.
And usually it's it's projecting like I I, unlike Mike, I am undisciplined and almost never.
Manipulate the specimen with mandibles and genitalia and things, but I'm usually, you know, I'd say a good 80% of the time.
I can see S8 because it's rejecting out and then this specimen here.
So what we're looking for is a very.
Strap like normally.
Projection.
Maybe I'll flip this over, but I can outline it here.
So this is S8.
There's hairs almost always interfering here, so sometimes you do have to turn it over, but this this is it.
It's got this huge, very indented V shaped, umm, aperture and most of the andrina have something that's either convex or just straight across.
Up here, it's rare to have any kind of dip.
I guess what is it?
Andrina Novales also has a forked one, but that's a very different.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:14
Yep.

Droege, Sam 22:15
That's Melandri and a very different group.
I may have it wrong, it may not be in the ballast, but I think it is so anyway that lovely feature is something to look for.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:21
Yeah, it's.

Droege, Sam 22:28
OK, Mike, go ahead.
Continue on.
I'll I might flip it over.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 22:33
So yeah, that was.
That was the subject's tillander and PTI.
And that takes us to come.
If it's not, it doesn't fit.
Those doesn't have those characteristics.
You move on to the complete 12 and this we're gonna.
This involves the head and basically the the side of the head, what we call the cheeks sometimes or technically called the Gina or the Gina.
I'm not.
I've heard both hard and soft.
Jeez, but I think it's genome.

Droege, Sam 23:04
Hmm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 23:06
But anyway, you you're looking at the margin, the posterior margin of the cheeks or the Gina inside view, and in most andrina males, it's that margin is rounded, sometimes narrowly rounded, but it's rounded.
But in this what you're looking for here is where it's sharp and margined, and sometimes even.
Uh, you know whether it's very popular, small projecting Ridge along the margin.
So that's what we mean by carinate.
It's a sharp margin.
So that's what you're looking for.
And there are a couple subgenre that have that feature in this part of the key.
And one of them is gonna entering a group, the other is nemid endrina and the rest of them, even though they might be narrowly rounded, they don't have this sharp edge to the posterior margin of the cheeks.
So that's usually pretty straightforward.
It's not something that's hidden it.
Depending on how I guess how the head's position.
So that's what you that's what you're looking for, and often it's not.
It's most well formed in the upper half of that posterior margin on the dorsal half, and sometimes it even hooks around to the the the side of the vertex.

Droege, Sam 24:19
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 24:26
It can be very.
It's usually a very obvious, conspicuous feature.

Droege, Sam 24:32
I'm going to.
I've got a fragilis here and I'm going to try and get it under the microscope.
I can figure out what I did with my piece of clay.
Then I had a second ago. Hmm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 24:50
So the the first group, the one Sam's trying to get up on on the screen, is the subgenus gone endrina and these are all specialists on shrubby dogwoods and in the east they're 445 species.
Uh.
Very similar. Uh.
Not always easy to to separate my opinion, but if you find you know shrubby dogwoods in bloom, so that's just you're gonna find out one of them and they can sometimes be very abundant.

Droege, Sam 25:10
Yeah, please.
Yeah, yeah, I've got a a silky I believe it is at my house.
Silky Dogwood.
Forget the species name and just at the just you know, sitting there next to the side of the house and it's covered each year with Andrina fragilis.
That's the one most common species we have.
Do you see a lot on red osier?
I don't run across it, but I have done it a couple times and I don't see anything on it.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 25:51
I I I did in. In Michigan.

Droege, Sam 25:56
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 25:56
Umm yeah, but that.
That that's a rare plant down here.
Oh, that's good.
Exam that shows a very that's what you're looking for, and it stands out.

Droege, Sam 26:01
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but you have to look at the cheek.
So sometimes you're you're looking at other features and you're like, ohh, I'm not quite sure what this is, and if you then you roll over to the side and you see this and you know, OK, I've narrowed it way down.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:11
Right.

Droege, Sam 26:26
Umm.
And so here I'm following the Carina.
So this is also the edge of the cheek and you can see this particular Corina and sort of fades a little bit in and out, but it's running all the way up to the umm, you know, near the eye here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:40
Well, that's good.
Another another thing, it's not mentioned in the key, but you're seeing it right in front of you.
The cheeks are very broad laterally.
I mean, and sometimes broader than the even the one that's Sam is showing.

Droege, Sam 26:53
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 26:53
So the so the width or the breadth of that cheek in the lateral view exceeds the uh, the width of the eye.
Ohh, and sometimes greatly so and so that's and a lot of enduring that are not like that.
They don't have cheeks that are very broad and much more narrower, and more or less as wide as the eye with.

Droege, Sam 27:13
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 27:14
But in these groups, that can be really, really wide.

Droege, Sam 27:18
So some of the like Mike said, it's tricky ish to tell these things apart, but a lot of the features are going to end up down on the clipeus and sometimes and also the labor and things like that.
So this a little bit busy here, but for example the labrums are often pretty distinct, so this is very so almost square, pretty projecting very far out flat at the end.
That's one that usually alerts me to the fact that I've got this species and and then the edges.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 27:50
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 27:56
It's not super obvious here, umm, but the click the edge of the clip is is flat and wide and has usually a big some sort of indentation which you can vaguely see here.
Often it's easier to flip the whole thing over and look a little bit better, and so that shape, whatever is going on in that indication, along with the shape of the labrum and how much pitting is here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:22
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 28:24
Usually that's where you spend most of your time for this group.
At least that's my impression.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:28
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
For the mails definitely.

Droege, Sam 28:35
But yeah, you can get into some ambiguous specimens though, and I'm not.
I wouldn't be at all surprised that there isn't another species hiding in there, at least one more.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:49
So the next part of like go ahead.

Droege, Sam 28:50
I don't.
As you say, cause I've run into a couple things like I really can't safely assign this to anything.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 28:57
Yeah, I've got a few of those.
Umm, the next part of the couplet?
No.
Is the subgenus Nemet Endrina and they also have.
Some similar characteristics, but there's something they they have that that gun andrina doesn't have the six sternum is.

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Mike Arduser (Guest) 29:23
And again, this is something you have to turn to be over, or at least look at laterally.
The six sternum is not flat.
The apical margin is reflects to some point either laterally or linear.
Whole thing is reflected.
Uh, and it again.
It's a pretty pretty distinctive thing, but there are a lot of hairs there and sometimes there's pollen or other other residues.
It's OK.
It's not always immediately obvious, but what you need to do is look at the the being the lateral view and then under and ventral view to see if that six sternum is flat or whether it's typically reflexed or meant to some degree.
And if it is, it's it's the.

Droege, Sam 30:07
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:08
It's the something that's new and endrina the other thing, and this is more of a field character, but all the gone Andrew have because they're specialists on cornice.
Other spring, spring and early summer species and the net drenas, they're all specialist on various Asteraceae, mostly, and they're late summer or autumnal.
So seasonally the two groups are widely separated so that I mean that's also a helpful.
Biological feature.

Droege, Sam 30:40
Alright, I'm going to so.
And they're also eastern species are tend to be relatively uncommon.
I think here to Sancta is is probably the most regular and it's not super common and I'm gonna pull up a specimen.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 30:48
Ohh yeah.

Droege, Sam 30:57
The others and then the others are sort of involved sometimes in at least the eastern ones.
They umm, with some sort of mix ups on their own in terms of run run in Salette or whatever it is run Senate and what's it going begins with L or am I mixing it up?
There's something with runs anade that gets.
Confused.
If I remember right, maybe I'm not.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:25
No, you're right.

Droege, Sam 31:26
Yeah.
Umm, what is that?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:30
Well, I just remember this.

Droege, Sam 31:34
Umm ohh yes and.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:37
The.
They used to be considered considered synonyms.

Droege, Sam 31:40
Great. What?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:43
I think in yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 31:43
Oh, that's what I have them as right now.
And the thing.
So I think they need to be split into full species here in the guy.
That was, yeah, published by Gibbs.
Right, that did he respit them out.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 31:56
Yeah.
Yes.
Umm.
And this is a I think this is a difficult group, partly because what Sam said.
You never get dozens of them.
At least I don't.
And they're.
Scared.
Relatively scarce compared to some others, and there's, I don't know, all the the the literature on this group is is kind of contradictory.
There's there's various disagreements, or maybe just lack of so detailed morphological information on the group.
I find it difficult, most of them.

Droege, Sam 32:39
Yeah.
Where we are, I mean we have some records of the run senati.
I think it I I I'm probably saying it wrong, but it's we.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 32:51
Ooh, ooh, that's good, Sam. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 32:53
Yeah, but it's.
I've never actually seen a specimen, and I'm not even sure that I was able to track down the specimens in the national collection which they theorem gear from, that plumbers Island area.
So we'll zoom in a little bit more here.

Roshan Vignarajah joined the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 33:10
So this is uh S6 or sternum 6 and you can see latterly there are those little teeth or little projections that that one of the things that's one of the things you're looking for and if you saw that inside view you'd see that the sternum that's external isn't entirely flat.

Roshan Vignarajah 33:10
So this is.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 33:30
It's got these little upturning laterally.

Droege, Sam 33:34
But it's not as dramatic.
I'm turning it now, but it's not as dramatic as the sort of like bent piece of sheet metal things that you get in like robertsoni and that that group.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 33:37
OK.
So yeah, or, yeah, critique guy.
Some of the others, but it's it's that similar thing that you're looking for a, you know, a reflexed margin and sometimes it's.

Droege, Sam 33:51
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:02
Weekly reflects, but.

Droege, Sam 34:09
Yeah.
Sorry, I'm but sharing with the view here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:13
Sorry.
Yeah.
Another thing you notice about this specimen?
Uh, in this subgenus, I mean andrina.
They're the bees are really aired.
And I mean you can say that about a lot of other andrina, but this, this group.

Droege, Sam 34:26
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:29
Uh, you know, if you compared it to the gonna andrina, you're far less hairy than in terms of the mail.

Droege, Sam 34:35
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:37
So these are really fuzzy critters, but sometimes make you know, makes seeing some of the morphology.
They take them animal prologue, difficult to see because sometimes those hair is pressed or the government nectar or something, and it can be difficult.

Droege, Sam 34:51
Yeah, even these sternal hairs are quite long compared to many, many other things.
Usually it's pretty sparse down here, but these are long.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 34:57
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 34:58
And here's here's this upturned area.
I'm just showing you the very edge because the rest is hidden from you.
This is roughly that area where we saw the point and you can see it's it's it's elevated up a little bit difficult to see I think in this particular shot and you can even when we back out, look how long the hairs are on the thorax and on the back and uh it's just a sort of very and the females too very fluffy bee.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:31
Yeah.
Ohh yeah, yeah yeah.
There are a couple of easy pieces.
There's a herd of cincta numbered entering Herdocia, which is almost completely beautiful.
Yellow pairs specialist on goldenrod.
Solidago.
Beautiful being both males and females.
I don't know if you did that one out there saying that.

Droege, Sam 35:52
Yeah, that was all we're just looking at that upside down.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 35:54
Ohh OK.

Droege, Sam 35:56
And I I've had them in my yard.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 36:01
So that the couple of 13, those are the two subgenera with a tornado Ridge present.
Clypeus and face dark and the.
Geno margin or the margin that Cheeks is carinate to some degree.
So if the at this point if the margin of the cheeks is not carinate or sharply margined, if it's rounded, I would move on to 14 and I don't know if you have any specimens in this one Sam, but the this is the subgenus Luke Andrina kind of has two components.
There since a couple of species that have the high tibial spurs not straight there, there's kind of a flux to them.
A medial uh.

Droege, Sam 36:51
Rate his his Mac is macro in there.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 36:51
Anyway, they're not.
They're not straight.
It's hard to yes.
Yeah, Mac is one of those, OK?

Droege, Sam 36:55
OK, I've got some.
I'll show some macro that is a good example.
I can actually see it too. Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:04
So that's what you're looking for in this, the high tibial spur, are they straight or are they flexed?
And to some extent, and another feature is on on that this same group of Luke Andrina with the Flex tibial Spurs.
The tour guides are really, really densely and finely punctate.
That's not unique to this group, but it's something that can, if you're kind of wondering about humans that spur flexor, isn't it sometimes that.
Densely punctate.
Finally, Punk take tour guides and the size can help Mom.

Droege, Sam 37:39
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:40
These two species are big.

Droege, Sam 37:42
I think it might be more pitted the densities higher than any other group.
Umm it's why don't have any mails here but the females actually show the same cancer of the.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 37:56
Yeah, they do.

Droege, Sam 37:58
So we can take a quick look at that.
No, it's not.
I would call it not subtle and which is important because a lot of times you can stare at these.
Here we go.
This is good.
You can stare at these typical spurs, and often they're hard because the leg might be tucked right next to the uh abdomen and the males and the females pretty much have the same pattern here.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:21
Yeah.
Yellow.

Droege, Sam 38:26
So even though we're not looking at a, umm, mailed, this is a good illumination here.
Uh, that?
Swing.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:48
You can see the tour guides, but very finely that's.

Droege, Sam 38:50
Yeah, right.
There's the pitting now.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 38:54
Almost all the way to the margin, kind of unusual.

Droege, Sam 38:59
There's.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:00
Ohh yeah, there you go.

Droege, Sam 39:00
I'm gonna magnify it.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:01
Yeah, you getting.

Droege, Sam 39:11
Yeah, it's sometimes finding these, the tibial spur is hard because it's the inner one, not the outer one.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:13
OK, they're perfect.
Perfect.
That's great.

Droege, Sam 39:19
And so it's often if the legs are tucked in or, you know, a million other reasons why they're messed up.
Sometimes it's just really hard to see that specimen, but as in a lot of times you, you know, depending on your philosophy of these things, you just stick a pin between the legs and pry it open a little.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:41
Or.

Droege, Sam 39:41
There's a little little crack.
It doesn't fall off, but it's now it's visible and so you know to each his own in terms of what they do with their specimens.
But every once in a while, I'd have to do something like that to be firm about a thing, or otherwise it just goes into andrina species files.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 39:55
Yeah.
So you could you can see that the flux or the slightly curved aspect it isn't straight or it's not even evenly curved, so that's what you're looking for.

Droege, Sam 40:01
Plenty of those.
Yeah, here's.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 40:16
The one behind the one behind it is.

Droege, Sam 40:16
Yeah, the.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 40:18
There's a nice even curve to it.
Subtle, but so let's no.

Droege, Sam 40:20
Great.
Yeah.
So it is only one of the two is important to recall and it's a little bit broader too, a little bit umm batter.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 40:26
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 40:41
Alright, UM yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 40:44
So yeah, if you're in the hunt stimulus spurs are nice and straight or evenly curve, not flexed.
We move on to 15 and this is just one species.
That's the subgenus is whole andrina.
I think that's changed now too, but anyway this is whole andrina crescini, and ordinarily this this becomes out earlier in the key because almost always the males have yellow or ivory on the Polybius to some extent or somewhere on lateral to the colibris the face is always usually maculated to some degree, but you do run into individuals that do not have any manipulations on the face at all.

Droege, Sam 41:24
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 41:31
It's kind of rare my experience, but they do it.

Droege, Sam 41:33
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 41:34
They do exist, and the first time I ever encountered this I spent hours trying to figure out what this thing was, and I finally looked at the genitalia and I said, Oh my gosh, this is just a dark form of crossing eye, so I don't know if you run, you run into those out there.

Droege, Sam 41:48
Yep.
Umm, I've run.
I I don't know that I've ever run into something.
And again, I may have passed it off as like I can't I I don't know what this is, but I see.
I'm relatively commonly a a sort of a a dissolution of the yellow into into blotches and sometimes into sort of they fade into brown blocks and not very.
It's not like they have crisp lines and some are quite, umm, uh, you know, mostly brown, rather than mostly yellow, but usually I so I can't recall one case where it's absolutely all gone.
There's always some hinting that there's some yellow smudges leftover or that kind of thing too.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 42:31
OK.

Droege, Sam 42:37
Help guide me here and it's also got a really broad head this.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 42:40
Ohh very yeah yeah.

Droege, Sam 42:42
Yeah.
So that's that's another hint within that group.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 42:45
So I we just put this part in the queue just you know, because I I don't want anybody wasting the much time as I did trying to figure this out.
So hopefully.

Droege, Sam 42:53
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 42:56
But yeah, what's Sam said is more often the case.
You see the specimens that don't have a it's nice complete the yellow face and most most holy addressing eye.
The males have 1/2.
The face is is yellowish or ivory.
Very stent.
It's very unique and stands out, but sometimes it's less so.
Just FYI, so the other thing about in this, at least in this couplet, is crescini has a lot of.
Again, it's very densely punctate on the tour guides and the sub genre that come after this.

Droege, Sam 43:30
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 43:33
Luke, Andrew and safe and have it very, very faintly.
Or smoothish tergites and they don't have any fascia either.
So now we moved to 16 and here's the other part.
The other segment of the subgenus, Luke Andrina and the the these species have the uh, the proposal triangle.
Pretty, pretty smooth.
Ish.
It's not coarsely the sculpture garden, anything.
It's it's the most we would all agree it's fairly smooth or there are just a few little wrinkles here and there.
So versus the next choice, which is, I find arena which I've never seen except in the museum.
So Luca Andrina, the section we're talking about here in a couple of 16 includes probably the most common one is andrina heronia maybe or Barbara Labris.

Droege, Sam 44:33
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 44:36
And again, these are fairly good sized bees, ohm.

Droege, Sam 44:41
Yeah.
So of those two, both of which are sort of edge of their range for us.
But like Barbara laborers has, I don't know if the mail does the mail also have that very strapped like it's one of those things that I I have to.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 44:47
Right.
I don't.

Droege, Sam 44:56
I usually end up keying out in the mail, but the female at least has a very long, longer than wide, so therefore distinctly because it's mostly not that case, but the label process and but I don't know about the mails, but kind of think not.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:02
Very good.
Yeah, very.
I don't think so.

Droege, Sam 45:14
Yeah.
And then and erythronium I you get the the flat Clippy whole thing going on in the females, but does that also happen in the males and?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:28
It does.
It is, yeah.
The males also have pretty flat, but they're they're again, they're, you know, that's one of those species that, until you can really learn it, those males are you could you can easily think there's something else.

Droege, Sam 45:43
Yeah, I spent a lot of time on puzzling out, particularly erythronium.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:46
Yep.

Droege, Sam 45:49
Usually Barbara labor.
It's just keys.
Well, but the erythronium you know, you get stuck in several kind of sort of similar things.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:52
Yeah, yeah.

Delphia, Casey left the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 45:58
They're throwing eyes.
The name implies it's a specialist pound specialist on trout lilies.
Seen to see her throwing up and I know I think.

Droege, Sam 46:04
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:07
I think it was the bees of Michigan.
Maybe it was a different 1.
Jason Gibbs mentioned that he didn't think that it was necessarily a specialist.

Droege, Sam 46:14
Great.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 46:17
I've never found it on anything else, and I've found it many, many states all around the Midwest.
So to me, it's certainly if you want to find the bee, you go you find trout.
Lily.
And that's always worked for me so.

Droege, Sam 46:27
Yeah.
It right, and sometimes these things so like for example, Jack Neff will always say that have reported laborious a is not a strict.
UM Ericaceous vaccinium group species because he finds it only on, he says only redbud exists in Texas, but I I also know when I look on the Bone app maps that and I see I've I've collected them on Redbud 2 in Maryland, but I think they might be just nectaring and I think like, what is it vaccinium arborescens.
I think it is or something like that is.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 47:08
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 47:11
I found it in Texas when I was down there in East Texas.
So I think some of these things are on there specialist plant when they want to have the pollen for their for their young and then you know they're they're drinking from a wider variety of species of plant species.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 47:30
Yeah, I think that's absolutely correct, yeah.

Droege, Sam 47:34
So in that would that would also be the case in a woodland with lots and lots of different vernal plants that, you know, there's a lot of opportunities to go to a plant to get some nectar and at you.
But you may still be stuck using the pollen of.
In this case, erythronium eye.
Umm.
So yeah, a lot of the other species, I don't see either.
And so a small group but and macro is more of a southern species, but do see that barely regularly.
Seems like later later in the season in Fields and they can and they seem to prefer to aggregate.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:08
Hmm.

Droege, Sam 48:15
So usually I'm getting a bunch and a particular location.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:19
Yeah, we, we we have very few records in the in the Midwest of macro or flexi except you know once you get down into Arkansas and something something.

Droege, Sam 48:29
Mm-hmm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:31
So they're not common around here.

Droege, Sam 48:32
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:35
OK.
Are we?

Droege, Sam 48:38
So Ziff Andrina, I don't even.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:40
Oh yeah.

Droege, Sam 48:40
I don't have what is that?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:42
Yeah, that's that's a rarity.
What's this?

Droege, Sam 48:46
Only one species species.

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Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:47
Yeah.
The only one speech cheese.
Yeah.
And maybe it belongs somewhere else.

Droege, Sam 48:51
Oh, oh, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 48:52
Yeah, it's Mandy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, see.

Droege, Sam 48:54
Yeah.
Well, we've we can't came across these not from ourselves but from a colleague.
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:01
Ohh yeah.

Droege, Sam 49:02
Mike.
Irishman Persian I always, I admit.
Sorry, Mike, if you're there or listening, I've mispronounced your name 4 service canopy Traps Georgia recently.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:08
You.

Droege, Sam 49:13
There was a nice little string of them in some, you know, question mark species he sent up to me.
And yeah, I think they antennal well.
Well, I'm not sure what the meals are doing, but I believe the antennae have.
I think I think it's very short F1 segment compared to other species, something like that.
Otherwise, kind of a looks like any old andrina you know, pretty generic thing, except for the antenna.
We're very different, but you're you're here saying properly.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 49:55
Yeah.
And again, I've only seen one specimen, but that, but also in the literature, that's that's also just description.

Droege, Sam 49:59
OK.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:03
And the Luke, Luke andrina those this erythronium Barbara laborers are very, very smooth.

Droege, Sam 50:04
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:09
I mean, they don't have anything remotely.

Droege, Sam 50:11
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:12
You that you and I would call straight or would circulate so.

Droege, Sam 50:18
So much.
OK, now let's see.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:19
OK.

Droege, Sam 50:21
Uh, we're probably at we're kind of closing in on time and is this a big new big group coming up here and think?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:22
With.

Maffei, Clare J 50:24
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:26
Yeah.
This. Yeah.
Yeah. This Yep.

Maffei, Clare J 50:29
That's what I was just gonna say.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:31
Yeah, this is the.
This is the group without a pronotal Ridge, and then we split them into yellow faces.
Or not yellow faces.
So this it's probably a good departure point which say that.

Droege, Sam 50:42
Yeah, and it looks like here at the end it gets a little messy.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 50:48
Yes, my mic is. I've been.
I haven't been around lately, so I'll I'm gonna.
That's I've handwritten all that stuff.
But you don't want to see that so.

Droege, Sam 50:55
OK.
Yeah.
All right, good.

Maffei, Clare J 50:58
I think it's amazing that you get to be that like we're part of this process of the you getting the guides up and sharing these keys in real time.

Droege, Sam 51:06
Ohh, I'd have to say.

Maffei, Clare J 51:09
I think that's a that's a really cool special thing that this little group has together.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:16
Yeah, it's fun and it's beneficial.

Maffei, Clare J 51:17
Uh.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:19
I mean, you know this this key, like I said before, but the more eyes on it, the better.
Did you know things?

Droege, Sam 51:28
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 51:28
But we don't have any questions in the chat.
Does anybody wanna unmute?
We got about 5 minutes.

Droege, Sam 51:35
I have two minutes on mine, but you know different different.

Maffei, Clare J 51:38
Oh, OK.

Droege, Sam 51:39
There's different clock spaces.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:42
Wait, we may have mentioned this before, but there are undescribed species of andrina in in the east that we know for sure.

Winsauer, Joshua left the meeting

Mike Arduser (Guest) 51:51
And so those are not in here and you know we've yet and a couple of them at least in the Midwest are we have more than one or two specimens.
So probably you know Sam is alluded to this also and further.
Eastern region.
You may find something that's undescribed and that doesn't fit well in the key, and that's not a reason to discard it.
If you find something just doesn't fit, you put a, put a.

Droege, Sam 52:19
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 52:22
That's a label on it or something, but you don't know.
It might be something that we just haven't had discarded yet, especially with this group.

Droege, Sam 52:26
Great.
So I I label those things up because this occurs in in not just in andrina but in other different genera.
I if it's something like, I don't know what this is, but you know it's not just a specimen that's so grouped up or destroyed that I can't idea which is is a category.
If it's something that's not cooped up, but I'm like, I still can't, this is mysterious.
I call it.
In this case, I would call it endrina.
Interesting.
And then I know to put that aside and and you know worthy of some future review.
Umm.
So yeah, yes.
So save those things and uh or sending the mic.
Yeah.
And you know, we've mentioned this numerous times, expect some reshaping of the subgenre here and andrina and I think you know we could stay that probably for several other groups too.
Just think of nomada.
Ohh my God.
So, uh yeah.
And there's a do you get the?
I forget what it is now, but andrina Macra has, according to Mitchell and Association, and I've seen this a couple of times and a nomada I wanna say annulata.
But I could be wrong about that one, but it's it's it's been associated with the species.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:01
Huh.
Yeah, I don't. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 54:03
So in in your populations, you might keep that a lookout, but those are often a little vague too, because a lot of these associations could be very well true.
But a lot of them are just like, well, there was this nomada hanging around in the same place as this andrina that's a good start, but it's not necessarily proof.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:25
Yeah.
Yeah, but it's.

Droege, Sam 54:27
In some, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:28
But it's a good you know that they could lead to something.
So those little, those little observations don't Yep.

Droege, Sam 54:31
Yeah.
Yeah, and it's worth throwing throwing out because then people have something to look for or something to shoot down and people are more likely to do something if you've if you have published a a general observation in terms of making additions or corrections or boosting it, then if you say nothing because people in general are reluctant to make speculations, particularly if they're not, uh, you know, got a lot of experience but but but we'll add 2 observations if they've already been made.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 54:40
Yeah.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 55:15
So that's it's always good to put these things out.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 55:22
Can I ask a quick question?

Droege, Sam 55:24
Umm.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 55:24
Do any of these body parts, umm, as we're going through the key and you're going into the different subgenres, do these body parts have anything to do with?

Maffei, Clare J 55:25
Different.

Spring, MaLisa left the meeting

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 55:35
Like what they feed on?
What?
How they mates anything like that or how?
How are these body parts used other than identification purposes for us?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 55:43
Ohh.

Droege, Sam 55:44
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 55:46
Well, the Sam mentioned it earlier, the proposal scopal hairs on the the hind tibia.
You know, they vary in andrina from simple, just simple one simple hair to hairs that have multiple multiple branches very finely and so this is obviously how the pollen is carried.
So that's an important structurally that's an important and variable part of andrina morphology is the scopal hairs and it's just some degree they must relate to the kind of pollen that the the bee customarily carries.
I mean, I can't.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 56:29
Right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 56:29
I don't know why it would vary otherwise, so that's just one example, but with the males we haven't really talked much about this, but some males have huge mandibles and others are very kind of normal and reduced.
And it in other bees, sometimes those big male mandibles are used to hold the female while they're mating.
Or in order to mate.
And although I never, I don't know.
That's sad.
That's seen that in Andrina, but I assume that's what they're for.
So that's just, I mean those are just a couple examples I can think of.
I don't know if that.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 57:02
Sure.

Droege, Sam 57:04
Yeah, it's a lot of the things like amount of pitying, density of pitting and whether something smooth or Ripley a little bit difficult to figure out why you would go one route and not another.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 57:20
Yep.

Droege, Sam 57:20
There's some.

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Droege, Sam 57:21
There's gotta be some selective pressure for that.
It can't be all just random, but I you know why I you know, what's the advantage of smooth versus reticulate?
Yeah, I don't know do.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 57:32
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 57:35
Or why have yellow on your Clippy?
As soon or why not?
So species recognition?
Who?
It's hard to say maller spaces.
Sometimes those are associated with, like with the irritation specialists.
A lot of the vaccinia, AMS and Leonidas and things like that are sort of bell shaped and to get in there, you have to go along ways.
And if you're face is longer than you know, the story would be, you get closer to being able to lap up the Necker, and in General Andrina don't have super long tongues like collides.
Do don't either, and they tend to.
There's tend to be some face elongation there.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 58:22
I think that's kind of where I was going with it, as if if we know what plants they prefer or specialize in, I mean that and China maybe help with some of that identification or or why these body parts are different.

Droege, Sam 58:32
Yeah.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 58:35
So OK.

Droege, Sam 58:36
Uh-huh.
Yeah, I think I think it would be fun to take the subgroup of andrina that are highly specialized and then, you know, take their morphological measurements and then see if that can be related to morphological measurements on the flowers.
You know, for example, you know how much pollen shape of pollen, stickiness of pollen, the depth of a flower versus like.
So for example, I would say umm that the uh and why am I speaking at the geranium maculatum is kind of an open open book, right?
But it's you have a bee that's specializes on it, so it doesn't seem like it's a lower.
That's very difficult to access, so you would think maybe much shorter phase or something like that.
But yeah, so.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 59:34
What do do the hairs on the legs for carrying pollen if if they travel a longer distance, would they have shorter hairs possibly on their legs so they're not tearing into much load?
Or would it be vice versa that they carry more?

Droege, Sam 59:47
I don't know.
I know you know, when I when you talk about sparse, uh scopal hairs on legs, I think of andrina cornelli, which is a specialist on azaleas and rhododendrons and things like that.
Yeah.
What's and a lot of times?
I think so, Mike, you may have some insight into this, but when I think of, say, some of the native azaleas, their stamens are poking way, way out.
And actually the pictures I've seen is that the bee is actually dangling from the tip of the stamens.
The story often is that both stamens are there to dab on to big butterflies, but here andrina cornelli is also somehow, uh, working those flowers.
But in a it particularly specialized way.
But why?
You need sparse rather than dense.
I don't.
I don't really know on on that one.
Can you think of any other particularly sparse? Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:00:49
Ohh.
Uh, no, not andrina, but I think of, you know, sykotik Astra those, those have very sparse hairs but that but they're dealing with pollen that's very unusual and that's all kind of cobwebby very different.

Droege, Sam 1:00:54
Oh yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

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Droege, Sam 1:01:04
Well, actually andrina nasonia eye has pretty short.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:06
I'm sorry.
Did you just call a kind of pollen cobwebby?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:01:11
Yeah, both.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:12
Can you say more like that? What?

Droege, Sam 1:01:12
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:01:14
Well, well, if most most things in the family on a Gracie evening Primrose family, I don't know about all of them, but most of them, if you look at the other than the the, the pollen, it's all, it's not individual grains that are separate there.
There's there's there are these threads that just make that to me are like cobwebs, and so the pollen is all.

Droege, Sam 1:01:39
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:01:41
It's not.
It must be a challenge to harvest because all this you're not just getting a few grains, you're getting a big wad of stuff and it's just very unusual.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:45
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:01:48
Yep.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:01:51
And so those those specialists be specialists on a gracee.
Usually there are some exceptions usually have very modified scopal hairs to deal with that.

Droege, Sam 1:02:03
So that's an interesting system that I really haven't made a study of, but I think someone must have done this so the, you know, the primrose, the evening primrose is some of them like, what's that big pale Southern one that is super wheaty they they're just blooming in the is that a speciosa?

Maffei, Clare J 1:02:05
Very cool thing.

Droege, Sam 1:02:23
But it's it's just blooms in the middle of the day, and there's several other day blooming ones.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:02:25
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:02:28
And many that are evening, truly evening ones and it the yet the the bees that I think of as specialists, at least within lazy gloss some or all evening.
Specialists, you know, big aselli.
I think they're all evening specialists, and so I wonder about the ethera that are blooming like sun drops and things that are blooming in the middle of the day.
Whether they have those Bissell threads combining everything, and whether some of these other weird, another a specialist like Ethera Megachile, another way is just a really weird beat.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:06
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:03:08
I mean, why hat like the tongue on it?
Like what?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:10
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:03:11
What's going on?
You know, like it has sparse ish and very few records, by the way, but has an incredibly long tongue.
Have you?
Do you see that one very often and got a sense? Ah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:22
Then you know in Oklahoma, I've collected it and found it.
No.
Yeah.
And yeah, the tongue is ridiculous.
And you know, other another specialists don't have, you know, like the collections they have short tongues.

Droege, Sam 1:03:36
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:36
So and it's from a what now would be Anina theorem.

Droege, Sam 1:03:37
What did you collect it on?

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:43
But in those days was uh Kelly Loftus.
They'd looks just like it looks just like an error there.

Droege, Sam 1:03:48
Uh-huh.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:03:50
I mean it's, you know, long floral tube which make long for the yellow morning flowered in the morning and that's when we found the early morning, 8:00 AM or so I think and so.

Droege, Sam 1:03:50
OK.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
So it's probably more along the lines of some of these like cutleaf, the cutleaf, another area, the cutleaf criminals, which has a pretty long Corolla, a lot of others are kind of narrow.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:04:20
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:04:21
I don't know.
Yeah, it's it.
There's some mysteries in there and what's there's a sastra.
That's another specialist, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:04:29
Yeah.
Yeah, Antonia.
And it has very, very normal scopal hairs.
I mean, it's like a typical user ride, so it does not have at least to my eye and modified scopal hairs.
And yet.
It appears to be a specialist on another, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:04:46
Right.
And and it doesn't seem to be.
I don't know.
I don't know if it's a particularly only on evening primrose.
I just wonder about.
There's, you know, another is showing a lot of different sorts of strategies here, and I don't even know if you're right that they all have the Bissell threads, but some are out blooming in the middle of the day.

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Droege, Sam 1:05:06
They don't really bloom in the morning or in the evening, and others are.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:05:06
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:05:09
Strictly evening and those are the ones like.
Well, just mostly because of evening primrose that I think of as having the lazy blossoms on them.
So yeah, and then I everyone's specialized.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:05:20
Well.

Droege, Sam 1:05:23
That's going to evening primrose, it seems like.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:05:25
There, and there's a special, you know.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:05:27
Now, now, Sam.

Droege, Sam 1:05:29
No.
Was that Mike.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:05:32
At Sam, this is Mike Slater.

Maffei, Clare J 1:05:33
I think so, yeah.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:05:34
Every morning I have that another Iglesia Vienna, the hybrid large flowered species that I gave you seed of blooming outside my kitchen window and every morning I watched the bombas impatience females come and clean up the pollen that the mas or anything else is left behind and they do jam their face in the to try to get some nectar.

Droege, Sam 1:05:40
Yeah.
Ohh yeah, which?
Uh-huh.
So it.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:05:58
I don't know if they can get the.

Droege, Sam 1:06:01
Uh-huh.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:06:02
He pretty much, but it's they must be getting some, but it's like they're doing a clean up squad.

Droege, Sam 1:06:08
So that's mostly moth pollinated, you would say or?

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:06:12
Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's large sphinx moths.

Droege, Sam 1:06:17
Ohh interesting and so it starts blooming in the evening.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:06:21
It popped it.

Droege, Sam 1:06:21
Or does it?
Only bloom bloom in the middle of night.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:06:23
It pops between eight 8:30 and 8:45 at night.
The flowers pop.

Droege, Sam 1:06:29
Yeah, right.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:30
Yeah. Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:06:30
Like like evening primrose.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:06:34
Yes, say it is, but they they literally take about 5 seconds to open.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:37
Yeah, we have a similar.

Droege, Sam 1:06:37
Yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:42
Yeah, we have a similar species in the Ozarks in the theorem Macrocarpa, and does exactly the same thing, right?

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:06:42
It's fun.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:06:47
At sunset, the flowers open just a matter of minutes, and giant big hawk moths swingers are the main pollinators, but at the same time, so the code and gastro bees appear.
And of course, they don't pollinate the flower.
They, but they do harvest the polling.
They they're too tiny to have any effect on reaching the stigma at all.
So, but no, there's a huge, huge flower and these are tiny.

Droege, Sam 1:07:09
Oh, that's right.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:07:10
And in a in.

Droege, Sam 1:07:10
Because the stigma.
Yeah, yeah.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:07:15
I've watched him many times.
They come nowhere near the stigma.
So.

Droege, Sam 1:07:19
Hmm hmm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:07:20
So they're just taking advantage of that.
Where anyway and for what?

Droege, Sam 1:07:27
Yeah, interesting.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:07:28
There is a we didn't mention it, but there's a Western subgenus of of Andrina on Agg andrina that are all specialists on unit theorem of one kind or another.

Droege, Sam 1:07:38
See.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:07:39
We don't see any east.

Droege, Sam 1:07:41
Yeah.
Huh.
OK.
Always.
It's so interesting, right?
Who?
The I just feel sorry for all the people who don't get to, you know, learn about all these little intriguing things because they're all, you know, everything the honey bee.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:07:58
I I would.
Add one thing, Sam, the evening primrose pollen.
If family the on a Gracie is very distinctive in shape, everyone should take a bit and put it under a microscope to look at it.
You'll start seeing it on bumblebees and things that you don't expect to find it on.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:08:18
Yep.

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:08:18
It's very distinctive pollen.

Droege, Sam 1:08:22
Yeah, it's like try has three balls stuck together or something, right?

Mike Slater (Guest) 1:08:27
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:08:30
Hmm, very cool.
All right.
Well, I think I'm gonna chat with Mike now about Visa Maryland for a bit and maybe Claire, we'll call it an end.

Maffei, Clare J 1:08:40
OK.

Lisa Overall (Guest) left the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 1:08:43
Yeah, I will stop the recording.

Mike Slater (Guest) left the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 1:08:46
That was a wonderful end to this week's this kind of turning into a podcast.
I've I'm feeling feeling it's podcast.

Droege, Sam 1:08:52
And podcast of five five people would listen to.

Maffei, Clare J 1:08:53
I'm gonna start listening to it on my ride to work.

Zia Williamson left the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 1:08:58
OK, I'll stop the recording.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:08:58
Right.

Maffei, Clare J 1:08:59
I cannot.
I can close this room when you guys call each other on another teams.
Or do you want to leave this open for you?

Droege, Sam 1:09:06
Umm.

Mike Arduser (Guest) 1:09:10
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription