89_Ceratina eastern species_June 28 2023

June 28, 2023, 5:01PM

1h 14m 7s

Droege, Sam  
A A like here are the common pictures of things.

Maffei, Clare J  
I said we never.

Droege, Sam  
So umm?
Anyway, I'll I'll go through with this information I have and and things, but you may want to follow up with everyone.
Like, hey, there is a I believe there's been several of these kinds of things.
Maybe Danny Johnson had one that got saved somewhere.
I I'm not sure anyway.

Maffei, Clare J  
I don't have one from plenty.
I did have a draft of 1 like a year ago and then stuff happened and I abandoned it, so I don't remember what state that's in.

polly cheney
joined the meeting

Maffei, Clare J  
I can pull it up.
I think we could probably take better pictures now though, that we have these things, but could reinsert those in.

Droege, Sam  
Ohh yeah.

Maffei, Clare J  
But it was basically a followed the same umm order of things that you will probably follow of the females and the pitting and then the, you know the three or four characters that are probably going to be showing today, OK.

Droege, Sam  
Plan jeans.
Yeah, I think people will.
People struggle with ceratina and it is tricky and takes a while, but we'll get there.
So we'll start with females today and it is one of the most common species that shows up in eastern collections, particularly with pan traps.
And so everyone's confronted with the same problems of the nuance of telling the different species groups apart.
So I'm going to share my screen and then we'll flip to the Discover Life guide.
I don't know if Mike has a guide for Sarah.
Hmm, maybe that's something you could look up.

Maffei, Clare J  
I'll double check.

Droege, Sam  
OK, you know what I think he does.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS  
Guys I'm I'm looking at it right now.

Droege, Sam  
So OK, so we can.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS  
He does have one.

Droege, Sam  
Umm, so Claire, you can also review what I'm saying.
I'm gonna use discover life for convenience sake right here, but I think we're pretty much In Sync.

Zee Searles Mazzacano (they/them) (Guest)
joined the meeting

Droege, Sam  
I've talked to Mike a bunch, particularly when the Santa Rehan's revisions came out to try and resolve some issues between some of these species groups.
So did I share yet?
No, I don't think I did. UM.
Maybe I did.
Can people see a screenshot of a B?

Maffei, Clare J  
I don't see the screen shot and I I do have a ceratina guide from Mike, but mine copy is from 2020.
I'm interested to know, I think it was Eric who said that he had a copy.
If you have one that's updated at all, but I'm sure these are pretty similar that they were three years ago.

Droege, Sam  
And there is a couple species from the mikes area, which maybe will punt on.
We have plenty to cover for just for today.
There's a species that's coming in, I believe it's been found now.
Maybe in Arkansas, certainly Mississippi and Texas.
That's a Skinner eye, which I just got specimens of.
So I'll have to look at those, but I'm I'm not ready to talk about them yet.
And then there's something that Mike calls near strenuous.
So we can look at his guide at the end and discern what he means by near strenuous and strenuous.
Right now we have it recorded just for Arkansas and Mississippi.
So going OK good. Umm.

Maffei, Clare J  
And we can see your screen now and I think that maybe I have an outdated guide, but I'll share it if we work from it.

Droege, Sam  
Yeah, I'm not sure those the near strenuous I think is now in there and I'm pretty sure that we've incorporated into the guide via Francis Moens work of adding peace that Mike has developed to the guide.
I'm sure there's some tidying up to do in terms of listing by species OK, so anyway, I will use the serotina guide from discover life.
Note that there is a male and female guide also lurking around in there, not on the page that we generally use here to go to links.
So if you go there, it's just serotina and opens up the guide we were just looking at.
But elsewhere there's a couple additional guides for males and females, and as we have discussed with David and other people, we will try and modify all these guides so that at the top page you'll see information about the guide itself, what it's covering, what it's not, and the existence of other competing guides, so to speak, better in the works.
Alright, so here I'm going to restart the guides where I was playing around with them beforehand and if I hit the search bar you see there's quite a few species here.
I think these are all the species known from the US, presaging work on this group for the other species.
Right now, we're gonna click on default for the eastern species.
You will see here Shinner Z shinners sinnerz.
That's that S you are Western part of the east that has now sneaking into and the serotina near strenuous and undescribed species that Mike is been working with.
So let's trim things a little bit.
Let's go to North Carolina and we'll get rid of those two other species for the moment, and we'll start with females.
And so when we do that, we end up with a list that looks like this.
Of these, this Cockrell is in a considered to be in a separate sub genus, and is quite distinctive looking, so we'll throw ourselves over to he picture.

Burns, Therese Y
joined the meeting

Droege, Sam  
I'm here of Cockerill.
You can see just from looking at the face, very dark, almost black, perhaps even considered to be black, very shiny, super small, much smaller than even serotina strenuous.

Matthew Carlson
joined the meeting

Droege, Sam  
The female that you're looking at here has this whopping big white mark that takes up a good bulk of the clipeus larger than the other species.
The vibe is just really different from he.
That's a meal.
You can see the two white marks.
Umm that are expanding and that the Clippers is basically all white and the two white marks are in the pair of ocular areas too.
So female again, again, just a very shiny little tiny beast.
So to be specific, when that was the mail at the last shot.
So we go back to the guide.
Uh, what we see here?
What's gonna separate?
We'll, we'll concentrate, I guess by species and I'll just guide you through the characters in the guide that denote and we'll cover all these characters.
Denote that particular angle so you can see after the gender we get to a female front tibia thing.
So immediately we're going to be able to separate out several groups by how much white is present on the front tibia.

Heath, Robert
joined the meeting

Droege, Sam  
And so we basically have three kinds of categories.
Umm, stripes are two categories and a simple roundish not stripe mark at the base of the tibia.
So the stripe though has a nuance to it.
So there are two stripe categories.
So basically every stripe that's running about 1/3 to 2/3 of the tibia.
And every once in a while you get faded specimens every once in a while.
You can't quite figure it out.
Those should be set aside and come back to after you've gone through your specimens, because they do sometimes like to disappear.
And I ivory, mark and sometimes your imagination can run wild.
You think you're seeing an ivory market and maybe you're not, so if it's ambiguous, set it aside and then come back to it.
And usually you'll have clarified it by the patterns that you're seeing in the species.
So, but the difference here between a couple of different species.
So if we just have a ivory stripe running down one to 2/3 as we said, and it lacks a mark on the adjacent and a part of the schemer that's gonna get us to strenuous.
Oops, sorry.
Floridana rather and umm so floridana as it might imply southern species Lucinda Rihanna has found several of these well to the north, so this is a species that should be considered throughout much of the east right now.
And there's some specimens.
For example, we were just looking at some from the Great Lakes area that Claire had gotten, and we were both a little mystified because we could see a stripe.
It matches and no adjacent mark on the femur, but it was Michigan so very far away from what is traditionally seen to be the AH.
Be specific, the species range, but Sandra has been seeing some that she's identifying through molecular markers to the north.
So beware right now that this is not super clarified.
The other pattern of stripes is that there is a stripe same basic time, place, date of the stripe.
But there is a ivory mark.
I I present on the femur adjacent to that, I remarked on the tibia and to illustrate that I have a cop Carelli here on deck.
Again, this very black bee very, you know, like you're not going to wonder about this one.
Thankfully, it's the only one in the east and the West.
You have a couple more species that have that are in that species Subgenus group, so here's the white stripe in this case is basically running almost all the way sort of Peters out here in the female and then they're clearly is a white mark on the femur adjacent.

Mike Slater (Guest)
joined the meeting

Droege, Sam  
So there's the boundary line between the tibia and the femur.
There's a white mark on the femur.
It doesn't extend far, but it is a white mark on the femur and you'll see the same pattern, although this white stripe will be shorter.
Maybe to about there maybe more like the third of the femur of the tibia.
On strenuous, we'll show that definitely to.
And then there'll be a white mark here and in floridana, which will also look at there is a stripe, but no white mark.
Sarah Tina Cockerell.
I tends to have a much more bright white marking than the other species here.
Who you definitely would say it's white, but there's a sort of off white quality to it too.
Just demarking.
Yeah, more information about this group.
The species that differentiates it from the other serotinous, so to that extent, if we were looking at that particular specimen, we would end up with this.
Umm, now we're down to two.
I, and strenuous and in the females.
And if we want, we can hit simplify and see if we bring up.
Yeah, some Mike, our duzer key things here and.
Keys from the original discovery life.
So basically, the vibe alone would tell you how to differentiate these two, but in this particular case where using a character here of the presence of one row of my new pence bordering the eye and everything else being smooth, so this is along the I and the base of the antenna.
So throughout that area and then in uh, the other species you can see here from the side, I think that's David's uh shot there.
You can see there's tons more pits along the edge, and if we look at the umm the row here, it's just this one lonely little row.
These are this dirt over there so, but also just gestalten will take you to different places.
So let's see what Mike says.
Mike says Kareli black color body color, blackish and non metallic length small 3 to 5 millimeters head and skewed them.
I should also point out Kim Huntsinger shout out to her for finding out that little femur marking character.
Very useful, particularly with floridana.
Ooh, what a nightmare. Otherwise.
So a head and skewed in polished thorax pronotum with outdoorsy dental Ridge.
That's the one that I wasn't paying attention to and the others.
So these would be all the other eastern species of the different umm subgenus that has a color that's bluish or greenish and the head and skewed them.
Lots and lots of pitting and not shiny in between and then or not much shiny.
And then the pronotum with the dorsal ventral Ridge present.
It's lower proportion with the sharp edge, IE according to Mike.
Finally, carinate, so finally carinate, so a very fine raised line.
This is something that I haven't looked at, but we'll circle back when we have a specimen up of these other species to see if we can locate that so that you have several avenues that will take you out of there.
Atina Carelli land.
It's also a very southern species.
There's the first Tennessee record was something that we saw in Umm, Laura.
Umm, why am I speaking on her name while I'm doing other things?
Laura Russos group in Tennessee.
So, umm, you might look a little further north than you would suspect, but I think basically Georgia, Florida and then the.
Southern coastal plain areas of the Gulf Coast states.
So now, since we've been talking about a strenuous here in relationship to kareli, let's pull that one out and and make sure I have a female here.
And we'll take a look at it.
Yeah, that's a meal.
Yeah, this should be email.
And yeah, here's a female.
So this mark that it has on its.
Beamer our tibia rather the white mark, and then the associated pale mark.
Elsewhere, this should show up like that.
And flip to the microscope that that uh is going to be a differentiating character for the species.
Compared to the other blue serotonina.
It's sort of a mid continent or middle latitude species doesn't get really far north and it doesn't get really far South.
But in our area it may. I can't.

Lent, Sally P
joined the meeting

Droege, Sam  
I have to look up the numbers.
It may be the most common of the SEROTINOUS, but karado would be a very close second.
So if we look here, get this in more in focus, we have.
Ohh that was good.
We have the combination of the tibia down here in the femur there is the white mark on very small but clearly present on the femur, and then adjacent. Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J  
Can you make the bee full screen?
And so we don't have these sidebars.

Droege, Sam  
No, right.

Maffei, Clare J  
We can see a little bit closer.

Droege, Sam  
I can do that.

Maffei, Clare J  
Thank you.

Droege, Sam  
OK, so refocus here a little bit.
There we go.
So femur, tibia.
And you can see that the white mark is a little off white, yellowish, perhaps even more ivory, as they might say, compared to the bright white of cocchiarella.
It also only goes about halfway in.
Cockrell was going quite a bit further, but here again is this white mark on the adjacent section of the femur.
Thank you Kim Hunsinger for finding that and we will John toss to.
Floridana to see that illustrated in the umm in that species.
So here you can see this pitting is super extensive compared to Cockrell.
I pitting everywhere and cocchiarella this is almost all smooth and shiny and definitely black.
So here I believe is the perennial area that Mike was talking about, and we'll see if we pop this up several times.
This looks like a very sharp pronotal Ridge area and maybe this is the fine carinate lines leading off from it.
Umm, we'll look at the other species that we're gonna put up on board to see if we see that a little bit better.
This this is then.
Now this combination will differentiate strenuous from in the female form from the other blue species, and usually it's well.
It's never large, right?
So sometimes large species can be small.
In other words, whatever bad food something like that, they become a whole lot smaller, smaller, particularly in the males and up every once in a while on the females.
So you have to watch out, but if you're looking at your collection and you have a whole tray of ceratina strenuous, A and some are pretty big.
Those are almost certainly not serotonin strenuous, so they're never become big.
But big things can become small in the reverse, so we'll pull this out.

joined the meeting

Maffei, Clare J  
Eric, what do you mean?
Do they have an F1 class?

Droege, Sam  
No, we mean like population wise, whether there's a a original first female that's larger and the F1, in other words. Yeah.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS  
Correct. Yeah.

Droege, Sam  
So, umm, I'm not aware of that.
I think we're gonna.
We're trying to get Sandra Rehan on.
So that would be a good thing to ask.
She's terrifying expert and does all kinds of cool things with the biology.
So you could ask about that, but umm, you can see larger F ones in the one that I'm most familiar with would be hallitus lagata slash poyi where the females the first females out who may have overwintered.

Joan Milam
joined the meeting

Droege, Sam  
I'm not sure are much bigger than the subsequent ones, but they have these weird use social environments in.
Again, we should ask Sandra about the social environment of Sarah.
Tina, I believe they're very interactive with their young, which is different.
Then other species.
But I'm not sure that they are.
Doing anything that would be called use social.
So now I'm gonna pull up on deck floridana.
So Floridana, as was mentioned, very southern species and looks is larger than strania.
Has the white ivory stripe.
Sometimes this level of ivory stripe that we're gonna be looking at here is, I would say, ambiguous.
And so when dealing with floridana a lot of times what we're doing is like setting it aside, setting aside setting it aside.

Joan Milam
left the meeting

Droege, Sam  
For and returning to it for more study.
And then in almost all cases I have personally, I have a a number of specimens that I cannot assign to species, so we just call them serotinous species because of their little tricky Ness.
Tricky things that they have where, umm, you sometimes just can't see the I I need to adjust this one.
The characters that you would like to be on there and you'll see OK, now I get this right.
Uh on the specimen is a good example where the white stripe is there, but it is not as prominent as the.
Cooper should have gotten rid of that label, but this is this will be visible and not as prominent as kareli and strenuous also.
Oh, you know, in the range where the species spends most of its time, it.
UM, they often don't really overlap with strenuous, but that's.
But they do enough that you have to consider it.
So I'm getting some glare on this.
Let's see if we can roll up where actually we're at 5.
So I'm at my highest level of.
Visibility, right?

Maffei, Clare J  
Can you say more about that?
They don't overlap as it just like a like a.
Is it on a NS gradient or is there some other environmental gradient that we're talking about there?

Droege, Sam  
Yep, north South.
So the strenuous word of Peters out and to the South, and about that same time floridana as petering out to the north.
But that's also an area that is generally under collected, so a lot of the uh, further South areas, coastal plain areas of Georgia, Alabama and.
And up north towards.
Tennessee really, we don't have much material.
So what the patterns are, you know, so like we people are struggling already with identifications of the species.
So it would be nice to clarify that no and I know.
That there is a lot more work in Mississippi and Alabama right now.
I don't know much about anything going on on Florida, Georgia area anymore.
This goes out of focus a little bit, but OK, here's a tibia.
This is floridana and here is the femur.
There's no there might be a little reflection here going on, but there's no yellow mark on the femur, and this yellow mark is partially disguised by the lighting in here.

Heath, Robert
left the meeting

Droege, Sam  
Oh, I forgot to turn on a couple of lights.
Maybe that'll help.
Well, it made it brighter.
Well, let's see what happens when I turn off the ring light.
You just can't see it.

Maffei, Clare J  
What happens when you give it a dark background?

Droege, Sam  
Umm, I could let me just talk about it without and then I'll take the labels off and put it back on.
But umm, that's probably going to be useful.
You're right.
So uh and the stripe is just not as clear.
So the stripe goes to ball there but is not as big and wide.
So I'm gonna take your suggestion clear.
Get rid of the label on this, which is weighty white.
See if we can find our bad boy.
They're all rather in here again.
Oh yeah, that looks better already.
Let me zoom in as much as I can on this.
You're a little focus going on.
Did I turn on the rights here?
I guess the light of the reflection of the white background was doing a lot of of that.
So again, we were slightly different angle, which is good and useful.
And what we're seeing is here's the femur edge.
No yellow.
This is reflections and here is the tibia, slightly out of focus.
At this magnification, it's a little tough to keep things so so glossy in focus, and here's this white stripe it does.
It goes even less and is a little you can see it turns toward of amber at the end, but it's there.
We'll show in a second dupla Calcarata Mcmackin group that has a white dot.
So this white dot is basically right there and then the stripe stuff going on and so that defines in your female floridana the meal floridana is problematic.
So, but usually you're outnumbered by your females, so that's helpful.
Female also has a pretty unlike calcarata often not always as a Clippy.
All white mark that is strong and solid and is not partial or nearly absent as encounter on it.
OK, so we've knocked out three.
Now we have three left.
Mick Mackey and uh Calcarata and Duplo.
So yeah, go ahead.

Maffei, Clare J  
So I'm gonna.
I I wanna read the couplet from the from Sandras publication for Floridana Umm, which I have found helpful.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
So this is separating floridana from strenuous based on the stripe and for floridana it reads usually larger length 5 to 7 millimeters skew.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
Tell them quite flat and closely punctate separated by less than one punctured diameter.
Miss Askew?
Them between medial line and Nautilus, and posterior and posteriorly.
Most more densely punctate puncture separated by equal to or less than one puncture diameter.
Umm, calling more bluish and I think you had a really blue one right there.
Now it was like oceanic.

Droege, Sam  
So the great so then bluish Ness does come up, but I found that as you go to the north, including stuff that that Sandra had determined as umm floridana from molecular stuff was the same color blue.
So I'm my my feeling is I'm trying to get back to the guy.
Here we go.
My feeling is that the deep midnight blue, oceanic blue, whatever you want to call it, that floridana has maybe a marker of the color alterations that often occur when species move South.
So for example, the algo chlorella, algae.
Chlorella groups.
We'll move from just dream.
They're always green, then they start picking up Blues.
They start pinging up.
Purples and.
And that happens in the EGA, pastimes too.
So I feel like maybe the serotina thing, which is a metallic color, is floridana in the Deep South.
Maybe something that is simply an artifact of how colors shift these metallic color shift to the South?
What's going on?
I don't know because these northern ones that I've seen that Sandra sent back to me that were floridana.
Umm, but from Maryland.
And like that's the same color as all the other serotinous, so potentially useful.
The other thing about.

Maffei, Clare J  
So like maybe like one of those things of like if you have one that's super, super blue and it pops out, then OK, great.
That could be a character to support your analysis, but don't be basing your whole line of evidence.

Droege, Sam  
Right and.

Maffei, Clare J  
What do you think about this?
You tell him flatness thing.
I've used that.

Droege, Sam  
I've I've not been able to to see that one, but it's not something I've used in awful lot.
So you know I'm more of the the femur and tibia school of fall, salt of thought, and with the notion is that it's still like murky.
So I think a bunch of these things has have been better clarified now for the Mick Mackey.
Calcarata Dupla set in the north, which were also emerging initially, but I think we know more as a a group.
Who does a lot of identifications on how to split those out and where the boundaries are just by a lot of processing.
Many, many specimens.
So yeah, still plenty of stuff to learn with the floridana, and I haven't seen enough specimens that I've could come out either way on the flatness thing, it's just another subtlety.
So and there could be more.
Umm, this is the kind of thing that over time you can pick up a whole bunch of things.
All right.
Good to hear, though the refreshing thing, particularly about the skewed and flatness to take a look and see if I can see that now.
OK, the triad that many people struggle with, you have duplex Calcarata and Mick Mackey Mcmackin describe relatively recently, also by Sandra and others.
And, umm, the Dupla cafferata have been around for quite a long time.
So make Mackey and the females would have come out of the calcarata land.
So you're not going to see any differentiation, say from Mitchell, who did not recognize Mcmickey and what you're looking for essentially is a difference between specimens where the skewed them is highly pitted and.
Can encompass most of the skewed him with pits and then we'll talk about what does that mean?
What does most mean?
And then from Skewed's where the big chunks of the.
Skewed them.
Don't have pets, so that's murky also.
And again, it leads to in some cases having to set aside specimens as serotinous species because they fall into what is perceived to be a of ambiguous line.
So I'm going to pull just randomly here, make sure I've got a female, a Nick Mackey, and is a male. So.
Well, umm.
So subtle, I do believe that the average a bit bigger than that's good one, but not pin.
Problem is if you pin it through the center, you often destroyed exactly what we want to look at, so I'm going to try and find a glued 1 umm or maybe this one so often I think they are the largest of the three, but that is really there's a lot of overlap.
OK, this is good and.
So we will put this into and take the hang off again.
And put that into the scope.
And what we're looking at is, well, it's back up.
Let's see if I have some nice pictures of these in the collections.
So here's Mick Mackey Pictures and Yep, have a female.
So we'll because sometimes these are easier to work with.
So what we're looking at here in this MIC Mackey very strong, you know, grow up even more.
Yeah, very strong white stripe on the clippies present, not nearly as wide as we saw on call in a Carelli, but still very unmistakably long goes almost all the way to the top and wide.
And the margins are more or less entire when we look here, we're looking at the skew Dum and we'll bring up another picture here.
Here's a perhaps it'll lines.
I think Sandra calls him neutralises.
Here's the other peer apsidal line.
These are just recessed suture lines.
Like there's the central one.
And what you'll see is that along these peer apsidal lines, the there's only a few pits and sometimes spaces where there's no pits whatsoever.
Then there's a relatively large open area with no pitting.
The central line has pits running down and on either side, and then the it's repeated on the opposite side.
So when we look at dupla, we'll see that there's usually two at least two rows of pits running down the sides here on either side of the inside of the pyramidal lines.
And these umm, areas on either side of the central line are much wider and go all the way to the end, and often the entire area, but not always, is filled with pitting.
And that would be your basically separation of duplicates from the Calcarata Mcmickey clan.
So with this you can't separate out calcarata.
So Kathrada and Mcmickey have essentially the same pattern of pits on the skew them.
I'm gonna flip to the microscope and see if we can basically replicate this in a specimen.
So mcmickey generally more northern than Calcarata.
Uh, can we have them both in Maryland tends to be a little more piedmonte little more in the mountains.
Umm not can't show up on the Eastern Shore too.
So not as clear as the picture, but you can see the basic pattern.
There's the pair upside line all the way over here.
This is out of focus.
There's a central line.
Here's this big open field with essentially no pits.
Or maybe that's one right there.
This is too glossy to see, and then you have.
Do a a simple row or one row like.
Not sure if I see that correctly.
I'm gonna bend the I'm specimen over.
So we can see that spot a little bit more, but usually it's just a one row of pits along the edge of the.
Skewed them.
By the perhaps it online OK.
And you can see the white mark on the clip pieces full and complete.
You know, if we're gonna run into, well, they think run this up.
Higher magnification.
We're in a reflection thing going on, but to Orient, here's a central line.
This, I believe is reflection.
Here's the other pair apsidal line, and you see that where?
OK, so I should have mentioned that the interior edge of the skew Dom is always pitted in all of these, and then it's really what happens along the peripheral line and here you can see there as pits and then there are no pits or one or two pits along the line.

Hongmei Li-Byarlay
joined the meeting

Droege, Sam  
And then it's just a big open gap here in between, so seem as a wise so now and you can see a nice big honking mark on the clipeus, which often differentiates it from serotina or is associated with that.
But it's not a Gimme.
Mostly all the Mckees have a big white mark, mostly all the serotina counterattacks have a reduced mark, but some ceratina calcarata is have a big white mark, so you can't just use that as a measure.
Ohh look, here's our our area here on the femur and tibia, and we'll see the alternative.
Umm Mark here, which is just that there's a little bit of reflection associated with this, but so these are reflections.
This, I believe is the mark right there.
It's basically just a ivory.
Again, not bright white.
Mark, that is right, hugging up to the femur, but the femur has no mark whatsoever on it, and this white is restricted to the bottom.
Every once in a while, this area that becomes a stripe and others has some sort of translucent amber feel to it, and that's a time to set that that baby aside and come back to it.
These are big.
She ceratitis Strania is small, ceratina floridana is your danger thing, but it's gonna have more pits all across the skew. Done.
So umm additionally, so we have this problem with Mick Mackey versus Calcarata a really the best character.
Again, some specimens just never.
Get resolved because they're goofy or it's like I'm not quite sure I see that.
What I wanna see is you look at the abdomen sternites.
So the underneath of the abdomen and the best way to do that?
Am I going the right direction?
Umm, I feel like I'm not.
Maybe I am, uh.
The yeah, I am the best. Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J  
You were getting there.

Droege, Sam  
There we go.
The best way to do this is from the side, because underneath our hair, so this looks basically hairless.
You can see a few here.
I'll Jack up the magnification and, umm, move this a tiny bit more.
So again, we're looking at Mackey and there are hairs here, a bunch of small ones are simply prone lying down, you know, repressed in some sort of way and certainly not sticking up.
And usually, if there are upright hers in these lower ones.
So here's believe that's S1S2S3S4 is where you're looking for these things.
There's very few.
I think we maybe even comment maybe fewer than 10 that are upright like this.
See those vague, vaguely vague hairs and we'll see in calcarata that this there is numerous hers up right here in that they have a relatively bright white aspect, so even if they're here's here, they tend to be on the amber end of the spectrum.
But basically it looks like somewhere they look relatively smooth.
Almost no hairs down here.
Umm, in this specimen and that's the best way to tell the two species apart.
So you put this specimen back together and we'll now might as well jump over to calcarata.
So again, Calcarata has a mcmickey esque.
Feel and is the proverbial molecular neighbor.
Well, I shouldn't say that.
I don't really know if it's a molecular neighbor, but it has a morphological neighbor to make mankey.
Alright, let's see if I this specimen has all the characters they want to see.
This is a good one because it's not got a greatly reduced.
Yeah, we're good.
So we're going to see on the skew dum the same pattern basically as anger.
The label off has Mick Mackey and we're gonna see on the Clippies, though, a reduction in the ivory marking.
It's not gone by any means, but in comparison, in comparisons are always dangerous because you have to have something to compare it to.
But usually if you do any kind of big study in the east, you're gonna get both these species, particularly if you're up towards the north usually.
All right.
And so let's show the clip his clipeus mark there.
So there it is.
There's a mark, but this is a good example where it's just a little bit smaller and you can see these edges are a little more vague, less crisp.
I usually again, umm you moving less, it's less and less white, more and more amber, yellow kinds of things.
But you know, if you didn't have a specimen next to you, that'd be pretty difficult to see.
And this if you didn't have comparative material be like, well, maybe, maybe not.
These things are pretty widespread on online, though you can see this pattern, which we won't go spend a lot of time going into central line.
Perhaps it online?
Big open area without much pits.
This area along the pair of sideline very few to little pitting at all.
Now the character though that we're gonna look for is the character that is on the underside of the abdomen.
Well, you will see again, particularly in contrast to what we saw before, many white hairs.
But you know, if you don't have comparative material and haven't looked at a bunch, should be like maybe.
You might call that something else.
Or is that a lot, or is that not a lot?
You know, it's not a lot compared to osmia.
It's just a lot in comparison.
OK, I didn't turn this enough to make me a key.
Dupla seems to have some.
It's not something character we use in dupla.
It seems to be, umm, more in between.
I would call it.
We should.
This is good.
I'm I could turn this a little bit more.
We're not exactly seeing the entire underside, but you can already see down here a much greater amount of white hair sticking straight down and exposed.
That really helps define.
That's what defines that species from mcmickey.
So those white hairs, if you look straight down, they sort of disappear because they're semi translucent, they fade into the color pattern.
So you're going to want to look at a lateral view.
So across the bow, so to speak, of the sternum.
If that's a terminology across these sternal bow and this is a big piece of fiber.
So you can ignore that, but that's that's representative.
So that's the kind of thing you're gonna see in calcarata.
In the females.
What time do we have, Claire?
152, OK, good.
We'll finish up.

Maffei, Clare J  
There you go.
You've heard it.

Droege, Sam  
I looked at my phone has the time on it.
So now the last one left, so we won't have time for males, is what we're murmuring about.
So the last one left is dupla and Dupla and Floridana and the past floridana has been considered a subspecies of duplex until Sandra was able to, you know, see clear differences in the scuttle patterns.
Umm is.
Umm, what am I trying to say?
Part sisters species.
Ohh, I wonder if they see the mark on the pronotum here.
Yeah, it's.
It's gotta Ridge, right?
I'm gonna set up the shot under the microscope.
So what you're looking for is just a dot on the tibia front tibia and won't be a stripe, so we'll look at that too.
But when we're looking at the, let me see if I have a picture.
Here of so there's our mcmackin with the big white patches, and if we go to albums.
Or did I go all the way back?
I did.
I really wanna go.
Sorry, uh albums.
Uh, my collections.
All the bees of Maryland Peapod is the family has serotonina Ceratina and I was hoping that we have Duplo, we do and this hopefully will illuminate the pitting pattern.
So here actually this is good.
I think the one that we're gonna see underneath has more, more pits.
So this is kind of an ambiguous dupla, so you can see that there's still are bare areas right here.
You'll see in the other one that we're going to show under the microscope.
There's not much, but there is a solid line of pits down along the Parricida line, and some scattered ones there.
So this is umm ah.
Indicative of dupla and you can see also the central area.
See all these pits are running straight down and are quite a number of pits wide, whereas in calcarata and mcnickle these basically neck down sort of at the end of the central suture line period with leaving one or two pit lines all the way down a bit more ambiguous than I think this one that we're gonna look at now.
So dupla.
See here we need to bring this up a little bit.

Maffei, Clare J  
So something I think is interesting, looking at the the rein publication and the stuff that we have on Discover life and out of mikes guides is that Mike speaks to the parasitical lines.
And, umm, the rein group is looking at the along the medial line, but basically the same thing of there's more or there's less.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
But I guess we have fact checks on umm on on both of those.

Droege, Sam  
Yeah, his.

Maffei, Clare J  
That whole to start thing.

Droege, Sam  
And so here it's really clear.
Like central line peripheral line and there's pits.
So there's still fewer pits in this area, but the pits along here are basically two pit rows.
Roughly why the central area is again this big band of pitting going down the center area, and so it's just way more pitted.
And because nothing is very absolute sound like, you can count the number of pits or anything come up with an answer, we end up with little piles of serotinous species like.
Is that dupla?
Is it not dupla a lot of times any ambiguity?
I just set them aside and then at the end after looking through all the specimens, I come back to it and a lot of times I can tell from the patterns of the species present that the ambiguous ones are more likely to be one thing or another thing.
So that's the pitting pattern.
This one is much more extreme than the one that's online in the picture.
Now let's take a look at the.
Hopefully I can find, I think, different legs here.
It's really get a good shot.
There we go.
This is a pretty good example of.
Now these white marks on the legs can be less than wonderful.
In terms of what am I exactly seeing here because the markings bleed into other features of the architecture of the specimen.
When I leave this gently.
Alright, we're at the upper extreme.
So tibia.
We're looking edge on on the femur.
That's the edge of the femur.
There's no white mark over there, and this is the white mark area of the tibia.
And so it doesn't extend down far, but you what's? What's this?
So this area here has this sort of vague.
If we were to look at it under the microscope with our eyes, you'd see that this is a bit embery and maybe you know at a different color than the matrix of the rest of the leg.
Again, moving us towards sometimes having to just say we own now on these things when you get into too much of this ambiguous stuff.
So Sarah Dyna is tricky in a way.
The good thing is there's a huge volume and if you can't, sometimes the males and females have, uh, different creates such that the males and females can help inform the opposite gender.
If it one gender is tricky to ID, the other gender often can be a little more easy to it ID.
So usually at the end you can put together a pretty good portrait of what the species composition is, but don't pretend like you can identify every single one.
Don't pretend that.
So I guess I will say ask if we have any questions.

Maffei, Clare J  
Would you prefer that people name things like?
OK, I know that it's talk rod or duplex.
So do a calcarata slash duplex or just go species.

Droege, Sam  
And you could do that.
There's nothing wrong with that other than it takes longer to write all that out, and I'm not sure it adds a whole lot of information, although it adds a little bit of information.
You know you've eliminated the other groups instead of just saying Serotonina spa and sort of depends on the the specimens, because sometimes it's just a goofy specimen.
Like I know it's a serotonin but I don't know what it is or sometimes it's lost in the abdomen and other times it's more what we've been concentrating on today, which is the ambiguity of the markings on a good specimen trying to get back here.

Maffei, Clare J  
And you usually spend some time talking about the like distribution stuff.
Do we have any besides the North South gradient for like the Floridana strenuous situation we have any East West or or any of your sandpit friends in here?

Droege, Sam  
So in the scheme of things dupla, in my opinion is a species that hangs out on awful lot more at the drier end of the spectrum.
So yes, we do see them more often in sand pits and ceratina calcarata spends more time in more moist areas and often shows up.
For example, in the spring in woodland forests and dupla, I'm pretty much think never does and I don't think strenuous either.
So the broader ranges I think I'd have to go look, we could do a quick look, but I think how Terada and Duplaga pretty far north, umm and what am I doing here I'm sharing.

Burns, Therese Y
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Droege, Sam  
On these species, things and.
To look at Calcarata distribution.
And you know, it's basically a southern Canada right there at the edges East and runs through the.
This is probably mistakes out here.
Runs to the Front Range.
It looks like it runs down to count to California.
Let's take a peek at dupla.
Realizing, of course, some of these are old specimens and maybe.
Murky from not being differentiated from make me a key for example, but again pretty much the same distribution, so I'm gonna say although it doesn't get as far West as calcarata, but in most of the east you're gonna have to deal with.
Is it one or the other in the South of Floridana is mostly down in this area down here cockerille similar Mick Mackey.
We can click on that because that'll have more recent information is going to be in general, but maybe I'm wrong.
Well, at least not.
Yeah, is more northern and is running down the Appalachians to middle attitudes in the Midwest and seems to not umm leap too far out into the Great Plains.

Maffei, Clare J  

Droege, Sam  
Any any other questions?

Maffei, Clare J  
There's nothing in the chat y'all are welcome to unmute small group.

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
So yeah, I have a question and so we have collected uh cloud of ceratina here at Ohio.

Droege, Sam  

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
And do you think majority of them are just cut color Colorado species?

Droege, Sam  
Calcarata yeah.

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
Or do we need to do any particular?

Droege, Sam  
Uh, so?

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
I didn't vacation.

Droege, Sam  
So in Ohio, you could have, you could have strenuous mcmickey, calcarata dupla no problem.

Zee Searles Mazzacano (they/them) (Guest)
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Droege, Sam  
And so and my expectation is that you would you can probably eliminate Cockrell I.
And then the floridanus has that, you know, we're really not sure what's going on with floridana, but you certainly would have more than one species, not just calcarata, although it calcarata could be the most common.

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Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
I also have a question about their habitat and when we did our experiments, we put out the Raspberry stamps out to attract the bees and but we attach the Raspberry stems to the bamboo sticks and the past two years they majority of them were just nesting in the Raspberry stamps.

Droege, Sam  

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
But this year there there are a lot of them in the bamboo sticks that.

Droege, Sam  
Ohh weird huh?

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
Yeah, like, why is that?
Do you?

Droege, Sam  
Well, so Rob, hopefully we'll get Sandra on here and she has done so many studies using bamboo sticks and other sorts of things.
I always had the impression that whatever stem they were using had to have pith in it, you know, which is like A and brambles of different kinds were the perfect kind of suitable habitat and they really didn't.
Use stems that didn't have umm, any pith like bamboo, but maybe because most of the time if you're, if you're looking at Mason bees and things like that, you don't put the stems upright at all.
They're always on their side or you're drilling holes in wood, so it's possible that it's not.
It may not be so much the pith as the orientation vertically, but Santa would know she I know she does a lot with golden rod stems and things like that, but yeah, that's a mystery.

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  

Droege, Sam  
First, I've heard of that.

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
And she's she's a copy.
I for the grand.
Hi, I'll definitely ask her as well.

Droege, Sam  
OK. Sheet.

Hongmei Li-Byarlay  
Thank you so much.

Droege, Sam  
Yeah, cool.

Maffei, Clare J  
That's the goal one so FIA asks, are there any resources beyond discover, life or Western species?
I'm up in BC, Canada.

Droege, Sam  
Right. So.
There you can try out because I believe that him hunting your started on the male and female guide.
So you if you go to a species page here, we can do that.
If we go to serotina Mick Mackey, for example, it brings up.
Oh, really, it doesn't show the males and females.
Did we get rid of them?
Let's go to a western species.

Maffei, Clare J  
I've never used them.
I've never had you.
You've never shown them to me.
I don't know where they are.

Droege, Sam  
Ohh I thought they existed, but maybe they don't exist.
Umm yeah, I don't see.
Yep, I don't see there being mentioned here anywhere else in these are Western species.
So OK, I thought that they had been worked on, but never completed.
However, if someone wants to from out West, we can show you how to score specimens for the West and add them to the guides directly.
Additionally, I believe I'm trying to think of what the last revision was.
Was it Stephen?
Does anyone know who did the last revision of ceratina W UMM but I know of no recent provisions that had keys associated with them for the Western species, but in general we spend most of our time with eastern species and when we get Western material, mostly ship it off to Westerners.
So I'm I'm not being very helpful.
Uh Corey Sheffield would be someone to ask, you know, at Saskatchewan, as would a Lincoln best or link out of Alberta and also working in Pacific Northwest they use something.

Maffei, Clare J  
Bill reminded us that our our David has a serotina key that I have forgotten about, and it's going into the chat.

Droege, Sam  
Yeah. OK.

Maffei, Clare J  
He is in Oregon and Washington.

Droege, Sam  
OK, so he has a key for Oregon and Washington.
That would probably work for British Columbia, I would imagine.

Maffei, Clare J  
And is based on the daily key.
So I think that answers your question here.

Droege, Sam  
Ohh daily right?
He's the guy that did the revision.
So where can one get this key?

Maffei, Clare J  
It is now in a link in the chat. Umm.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
That it is now a link in the chat.

Droege, Sam  
Yes, we we need more keys out West in particular.
So I always encourage people to.
Umm, you know, help out on that.

Maffei, Clare J  
And David specifically is looking for feedback on these.
What does this type of key that he uses?
Is this the lucid key or no?

Droege, Sam  
Is not is not lucid.
It's a freeware.

Maffei, Clare J  
Identificate identikit.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
Is it?

Droege, Sam  
Yeah. Yep.

Maffei, Clare J  
Umm, because he's he's working on these.
He also has one that's working out for the entry into subgroups and that area and that guide has there's pros and cons to it.
They can do different things that discover life does, and he's got amazing photographs on there.
So he's often on these calls with us, and if not, we can connect you.
UM, so if you use them, I'm sure he'd like to hear everything you have all of your thoughts.

Beiriger,Robert L
left the meeting

Maffei, Clare J  
Are we?

Droege, Sam  
I think we're.

Maffei, Clare J  
Ohh and apparently link also gave input to that guide.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  

Mike Slater (Guest)  
Hey I got a question.
They the lines on the backs of the scooter on the ceratina the one picture you used a lot had.
There's an extra lines between the proximal line and the center line.
Do they have names and maybe mentioning those would be good because they're really quite obvious in a lot of these specimens, and they're like being ignored in the description.

Droege, Sam  
Yeah, those are those are artifacts.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
That might confuse some people.

Droege, Sam  
Yeah, those are aren't.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
No, they're they're really on the specimens.
I've been looking at them while you've been talking at real specimens and those lines are there.

Droege, Sam  
So there should be.
I'm gonna say umm that there should be no lines between the pair upside lines and the center line.
And what might be happening is a partial collapse of the scutum that makes troughs, but it wouldn't be, you know, the kind of stuff that I was seeing online as we were looking at were areas of reflection that look like that were bouncing off of and reflecting off of some kind of depressed area that was quite different in terms of aspect than the lines themselves.

left the meeting

Mike Slater (Guest)  
It's it's.
It's definitely a line there on on almost all the specimens I've been pulling out and looking while you've been talking, depending on the angle, it's not quite as deep as the central line, but it's definitely like a suture line that's quite visible.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
Did you see something about that in any of the photos?

Droege, Sam  
I'm looking and I think.
Well, I'm.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
It was quite visible in that one photo that Sam kept looking at.

Droege, Sam  
I'm looking now too I think.
OK, so I'm I'm looking here too at a specimen I think I see what you're talking about, actually.
And yes, I will say you Mike, you are correct at least at least then this specimen, it's something that no one ever mentions, though it's very subtle.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
Well, I'm just wondering if that might confuse some people about what's a preps it'll line and what's that line and?

Droege, Sam  
Ohh interesting.

Maffei, Clare J  
Then why don't you screen share?

Droege, Sam  
I will, but it is interesting, like I was like, no, there's no wine there and there is and.
But I know of no one for the way.
I've never noticed it, and I think you were talking about one of the pictures I was using was in.
What the heck is going on here?
Are you seeing my screen or not clear?

Maffei, Clare J  
We're seeing you move around your screen, but yeah, so now I see your email and yes.

Droege, Sam  
OK, good.
Trying to and this presenting thing is in the way of me opening up.
Hope there we go.
This so this if we magnify this.

Mike Slater (Guest)  

Droege, Sam  
So oops, so this is the per episode line right here.
This is in osmia.
It turns into just like a slightly modified hit, it looks like, but basically they all have that.
And here is the central line.
And here's the mystery.
We'll call them the Slater lines.
Just randomly at which I have completely ignored.

Mike Slater (Guest)  

Droege, Sam  
So yes, good point.
I have no name.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
So have I, but it was really obvious on that picture.
And then I started pulling specimens.

Droege, Sam  

Mike Slater (Guest)  
I'm gonna have to look at all the species.
I have specimens for and.

Droege, Sam  

Mike Slater (Guest)  
See what those long.

Droege, Sam  
So I would say in general it would be interesting to look at those because a lot of times it's like this is how you find new characters and see whether there's differences among species.

Mike Slater (Guest)  

Droege, Sam  
I'm just completely unaware of this phenomena, so now I have to look at other species groups.
This is just serotype of that has this and then also you can see that they basically Peter out at the edge of the anterior set of pits and mostly we're looking to the posterior of that in terms of characters.
So it would be fun and illuminating for everyone to now look at your specimens and see if these lines are present elsewhere, but got a.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
Well, I I've got a a duplex specimen under the scope right now and those lines go way back.

Droege, Sam  
I was blind to go way back and down into this area or way.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
All the way to the end of the.
Perhaps total line, at least the rear of the perhaps will line.
They're quite long and obvious on a duplex.

Droege, Sam  
Well, that may that could be that could be a good character then because see here in this cafferata slash mcmonkey or whatever it is like that there's no hint of that line in there.
Or is this dupla?
This might be the Duplo one or supposed dupla.
Umm, let me look at some of my dupla under the microscope and see how far that line goes.
Uh, I can see the line going further than on screen.
It sort of Peters out in that area and kind of broadens weirdly, at least in that specimen. Umm.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
Well, I'll let.
I'll have to sit down and take a bunch of pictures and send them to you all.

Droege, Sam  
Yeah, right.
That's, umm, this one sort of Peters out like the one on the on the screen.
Umm yeah.
I mean, this is a a worthy couple hours of looking at now.

Schnebelin, Amy [EMR/SP/PT/ELY]
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Droege, Sam  
I'm gonna look at Calcarata.
Uh, and seeing what the pattern of the Slater lines are in across species and see if they're useful, it's one thing to have Slater lines.
It's another thing to have useful Slater lines.
Alright and now I have to now I'm going to be curious.
So I'm all the species I've looked at so far have them now.
I'm gonna be curious as to whether they show up in other species groups besides serotonin.
I mean, we look at apid, right?
Because this is an aphid thing, and theoretically Taylor Cooper or close kin.
Yeah, they all seem to be kind of doing the same thing.
I'm going to do all the specimens.
I'm not seeing anything that helps with ID, but.
Who knows what else is going to show up?
Here in some element of Cockerille has them.
So smooth.
Umm, maybe yes, right?
Very faint, right?
Well, Mike, thank you.
Again, we're pointing that out and also send me that picture of your.
Experiments with marker fade.
If you would, could, I think people will be interested in.

Mike Slater (Guest)  
Oh yeah, I forgot about doing that.
I've gotta go take a fresh picture.
I'll send you the whole series.

Droege, Sam  
Yeah, cool.
Alright, learn something every day.

Maffei, Clare J  
And thanks everybody.
Nice and I don't have to running get the kid.
I can stand for the extra cool conversations.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
Just as an FYI, no class next week I'll send out an email about it and maybe I'll have enough time then to get some of these guests to join us to wrap up some serotina before he bumped jump back into andrina.
Since Mike and Rob are out for a little bit longer, so good everybody.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
All right, great job.

Droege, Sam  

Maffei, Clare J  
Go team.
Have a great week.

Droege, Sam  

victor demasi
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Droege, Sam  
Thank you, Claire.

Maffei, Clare J  
Thank you, Sam.

Droege, Sam  
My everybody.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS
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Lent, Sally P
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Mike Slater (Guest)
left the meeting