x0:0:0.0 --> 0:0:3.890
Maffei, Clare J
OK, so now we're recording. We're gonna do the subgenera.
0:0:4.810 --> 0:0:7.620
Maffei, Clare J
With our friends David and Mike at the end.
0:0:11.50 --> 0:0:19.950
Droege, Sam
So maybe I'll just suggest that maybe Mike, you assume that everyone's looking
at your key, I can maybe.
0:0:34.570 --> 0:0:35.80
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK.
0:0:20.860 --> 0:0:35.420
Droege, Sam
Maybe I'll bring it up on screen and then David can also point out some of
these features as we go and we can. And you, David, you could then take over
the screen to show the pictures, something like that.
0:0:37.400 --> 0:0:38.720
Droege, Sam
How does that sound like?
0:0:37.530 --> 0:0:42.270
Mike Arduser (Guest)
How how that sounds sounds good. What about just a quick introduction?
0:0:43.480 --> 0:0:43.720
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:0:43.70 --> 0:0:44.230
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh to the genus.
0:0:44.720 --> 0:0:49.970
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm, you know all these? I'll be groups tend to have their own morphological
lexicon but.
0:0:50.650 --> 0:1:6.530
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Andrina is kind of at the top because there are certain terms and
characteristics that we use with Andrea that hardly used within the other
groups and David's got good images of a lot of those that'll help.
0:1:7.710 --> 0:1:8.880
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And understanding them.
0:1:9.850 --> 0:1:15.680
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Because much of the primary literature in Andrina has no illustrations, it's
just verbiage, and you have to.
0:1:17.100 --> 0:1:20.830
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Understand that so this will be a first. You have these great.
0:1:22.170 --> 0:1:24.260
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Great diagnostic images.
0:1:25.370 --> 0:1:25.780
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So.
0:1:26.530 --> 0:1:26.880
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah.
0:1:24.990 --> 0:1:30.180
David Cappaert (Guest)
So my a quick thing, if I were to just sort of.
0:1:39.980 --> 0:1:40.270
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah.
0:1:30.360 --> 0:1:43.240
David Cappaert (Guest)
On review quickly the document I have and then we know as you proceed if we say
ohh yeah we remember those images of Mailer spaces or whatever and we want to
look at them but I can just give us sense, yeah.
0:1:42.40 --> 0:1:44.410
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, sure. Good idea. Yeah.
0:1:44.10 --> 0:1:45.460
David Cappaert (Guest)
Let let me see how.
0:1:47.90 --> 0:1:49.120
David Cappaert (Guest)
Tell me if we if we're sharing.
0:1:51.290 --> 0:1:54.830
David Cappaert (Guest)
You're probably seeing a bunch of. Is everybody seeing me?
0:1:55.440 --> 0:1:56.210
Mike Arduser (Guest)
I just see you.
0:1:56.640 --> 0:1:56.880
Droege, Sam
We.
0:1:56.170 --> 0:1:57.160
Maffei, Clare J
I still see you.
0:1:57.780 --> 0:1:59.930
David Cappaert (Guest)
Me as a person, you don't see my screen.
0:2:0.570 --> 0:2:0.810
Droege, Sam
No.
0:2:0.510 --> 0:2:1.420
Maffei, Clare J
You as a person.
0:2:1.860 --> 0:2:2.470
David Cappaert (Guest)
Ah.
0:2:3.200 --> 0:2:6.110
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK, well tell me how to do it.
0:2:8.680 --> 0:2:10.900
David Cappaert (Guest)
I opened my share tray.
0:2:11.970 --> 0:2:14.670
David Cappaert (Guest)
And I clicked on something.
0:2:16.120 --> 0:2:16.680
Droege, Sam
Did you?
0:2:15.860 --> 0:2:17.170
David Cappaert (Guest)
But that didn't do it.
0:2:17.390 --> 0:2:23.780
Droege, Sam
Did you click on the share in the upper right corner of the session that
you're?
0:2:23.480 --> 0:2:36.100
David Cappaert (Guest)
Let's see. OK, so I'm seeing you're presenter. You can share. I'm going to
dismiss that recording as good. Dismiss. That sharing is paused. You need to go
back to the window you were sharing to resume.
0:2:36.940 --> 0:2:40.130
David Cappaert (Guest)
Uh, so shoot.
0:2:44.250 --> 0:2:44.600
Saff Killingsworth
Yeah.
0:2:42.320 --> 0:2:44.680
Droege, Sam
I usually go share my computer.
0:2:46.170 --> 0:2:46.960
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah.
0:2:45.950 --> 0:2:51.380
Droege, Sam
That means you can see all your and whatever you want on the computer at that
helps.
0:2:51.690 --> 0:2:56.50
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK. Hold on, I'll things just blinked out of hi.
0:2:57.370 --> 0:3:2.240
David Cappaert (Guest)
Uh, I'm clicking on this little arrow. OK, good. I think this is gonna do it.
0:3:2.710 --> 0:3:3.10
Droege, Sam
OK.
0:3:4.950 --> 0:3:11.220
Droege, Sam
Worse comes to worse. We can open it and you and you can just tell us how,
where to scroll to, but that it'd be better if you had it.
0:3:10.0 --> 0:3:13.160
David Cappaert (Guest)
That's true. Yeah, you'll.
0:3:12.470 --> 0:3:14.320
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah, I have it open to my screen now whenever.
0:3:14.960 --> 0:3:19.390
David Cappaert (Guest)
Well, just, I mean do that because I don't want to spend a bunch of time
thinking around with this.
0:3:19.910 --> 0:3:31.640
David Cappaert (Guest)
On and and Claire, you maybe you'll have an idea of, like, sort of what we
wanna consider about this, but right now, I don't see anything except for Sam.
0:3:33.180 --> 0:3:34.900
Mike Arduser (Guest)
No, I I I see.
0:3:35.740 --> 0:3:36.310
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Images.
0:3:33.300 --> 0:3:36.850
Droege, Sam
Umm, I see. I see your material.
0:3:37.250 --> 0:3:37.570
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah.
0:3:38.260 --> 0:3:40.50
David Cappaert (Guest)
You see my spinner clears.
0:3:41.70 --> 0:3:42.170
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh Claires, I think.
0:3:41.270 --> 0:3:42.370
Droege, Sam
I assume it's Clarence.
0:3:43.350 --> 0:3:43.740
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK.
0:3:45.560 --> 0:3:51.860
David Cappaert (Guest)
Right. Yeah, yeah, I I wish this. I I kind of don't like teens never did.
0:3:53.300 --> 0:3:54.480
Maffei, Clare J
It is kind of frustrating.
0:3:52.450 --> 0:3:56.190
Droege, Sam
Well, join the we're. Yeah, we're forced into it.
0:3:54.890 --> 0:4:5.230
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah. So because I have a button that says stop sharing, but according to you
all I'm not sharing, sharing is paused. You'll need to go back to the window
you were sharing to resume.
0:4:8.750 --> 0:4:9.70
Droege, Sam
OK.
0:4:10.210 --> 0:4:10.480
Droege, Sam
In.
0:4:6.650 --> 0:4:13.20
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK, I'm gonna try one more time. One more time, see what happens. OK, I I
stopped sharing. Now I'm gonna open share tray.
0:4:13.790 --> 0:4:18.570
David Cappaert (Guest)
And I'm looking at various screens I'm going to click on the one I wanna share.
0:4:21.770 --> 0:4:23.920
David Cappaert (Guest)
And then it's still. I'll give control.
0:4:25.190 --> 0:4:28.670
David Cappaert (Guest)
I mean, maybe I don't have control. It says presenting dot dot dot.
0:4:27.770 --> 0:4:29.70
Maffei, Clare J
No, you should have it.
0:4:32.270 --> 0:4:33.410
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK, still no good.
0:4:34.790 --> 0:4:35.80
Droege, Sam
Yep.
0:4:35.250 --> 0:4:35.800
Maffei, Clare J
Sign in.
0:4:38.370 --> 0:4:41.470
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK, I would say clear. Why don't you do your thing there?
0:4:42.490 --> 0:4:42.940
Maffei, Clare J
Alright.
0:4:42.340 --> 0:4:45.540
Droege, Sam
Let's make sure you can see what Claire can see too.
0:4:47.100 --> 0:4:47.440
Droege, Sam
OK.
0:4:48.560 --> 0:4:49.510
Droege, Sam
Can you see that?
0:4:50.240 --> 0:4:51.310
David Cappaert (Guest)
I just see people.
0:4:51.860 --> 0:4:53.250
Mike Arduser (Guest)
OK. Well, that's.
0:4:52.650 --> 0:5:1.340
Maffei, Clare J
Do you might have two, two Microsoft two teams windows like in the bottom? I
don't know if you have a Windows computer.
0:5:2.40 --> 0:5:2.740
David Cappaert (Guest)
No.
0:5:4.90 --> 0:5:4.870
David Cappaert (Guest)
Oh my gosh.
0:5:2.280 --> 0:5:8.270
Maffei, Clare J
But I have 3 right now because I have one. I have one that I'm opening one that
has the chat and the people in it.
0:5:9.340 --> 0:5:11.390
Maffei, Clare J
And one that has like my team.
0:5:11.820 --> 0:5:19.930
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah, if I OK. If I go to window, I only see one window and then I see this
button that says give control.
0:5:21.930 --> 0:5:22.200
David Cappaert (Guest)
And it.
0:5:21.750 --> 0:5:30.10
Maffei, Clare J
I'm going to make you a not a presenter and then like represent you and maybe
that'll I don't know. Rebooting things is the only troubleshooting I have.
0:5:30.510 --> 0:5:31.80
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah.
0:5:35.850 --> 0:5:36.50
Maffei, Clare J
That.
0:5:35.370 --> 0:5:40.0
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK, sharing this pause. You'll need to go back to the window you were sharing to
resume.
0:5:40.280 --> 0:5:42.360
Maffei, Clare J
Well, I just made it so that you can't share it all.
0:5:42.790 --> 0:5:43.410
David Cappaert (Guest)
Right.
0:5:44.250 --> 0:5:46.570
Maffei, Clare J
And now I'm going to make you a presenter.
0:5:47.330 --> 0:5:47.640
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The.
0:5:48.610 --> 0:5:52.160
Maffei, Clare J
And see if that kicked something in and ooh.
0:5:50.990 --> 0:5:52.410
David Cappaert (Guest)
OK, you're a presenter.
0:5:54.30 --> 0:5:56.520
Maffei, Clare J
Your screen just reformatted here.
0:5:58.280 --> 0:5:59.570
Droege, Sam
I see just a dark screen.
0:5:58.710 --> 0:6:0.830
Maffei, Clare J
On my end, but a dark screen.
0:6:1.930 --> 0:6:3.20
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah, that's that's not good.
0:6:1.510 --> 0:6:6.200
Droege, Sam
So, David, I'm wondering if you're clicking when you say the share tray.
0:6:6.650 --> 0:6:7.310
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah.
0:6:7.660 --> 0:6:14.410
Droege, Sam
And is that you think that's maybe somewhere other than on Microsoft Teams?
0:6:15.150 --> 0:6:15.760
David Cappaert (Guest)
Well, it's.
0:6:14.700 --> 0:6:15.850
Maffei, Clare J
I'm going to pause the recording.
0:6:32.550 --> 0:6:35.500
David Cappaert (Guest)
Awesome. If I change screens now.
0:6:34.710 --> 0:6:37.240
Droege, Sam
I don't know what you did. Look at that. There it is.
0:6:37.660 --> 0:6:38.540
Maffei, Clare J
Yay.
0:6:37.540 --> 0:6:41.750
David Cappaert (Guest)
Ah, alright man. Alright, so let me just.
0:6:41.170 --> 0:6:41.890
Droege, Sam
Write that down.
0:6:42.460 --> 0:6:43.630
David Cappaert (Guest)
Weighed into this.
0:6:43.720 --> 0:6:47.880
David Cappaert (Guest)
And so for for anybody in the audience out here.
0:6:49.290 --> 0:7:19.190
David Cappaert (Guest)
It's my job to tell you that this is really hard because I've spent a lot of
time in Indiana to discover life key and and now more and more in the primary
literature. And I start out believing that I'm just not good at this. But then
I entertain the possibility that anybody's gonna find this really hard to do
often in the absence of images. So I make these images partly for the
betterment of the entire world, but mainly so I can figure stuff out.
0:7:19.460 --> 0:7:21.970
David Cappaert (Guest)
So if if I walk through this a little bit.
0:7:22.470 --> 0:7:25.990
David Cappaert (Guest)
Umm this is this document.
0:7:25.230 --> 0:7:26.600
Maffei, Clare J
Can you make it full screen, David?
0:7:27.880 --> 0:7:28.460
Maffei, Clare J
Thanks.
0:7:26.950 --> 0:7:29.680
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah, this document is.
0:7:30.930 --> 0:7:45.570
David Cappaert (Guest)
What I wanna tell myself about how to really understand this stuff and and and
I'm wide open anyone's telling me how to make this a little more clear and what
features I should add. But if we start here, the vertex seems to be an
important thing.
0:8:1.330 --> 0:8:1.530
Zee Searles Mazzacano (they/them) (Guest)
So.
0:7:46.20 --> 0:8:15.910
David Cappaert (Guest)
On if you look at the top of the head of an endrina, for me it's a little hard
to get a handle on like you fix in your mind what 10 seller diameter is and
then you try to imagine how far away that is from the edge. If you use a
radical, it's a mess because this is a very small structure and you're shaking
around and so on. So for me this sort of helps. OK, I gotta site picture of
what?
0:8:16.80 --> 0:8:35.600
David Cappaert (Guest)
10 seller diameter looks like and when I'm really lucky I get something that's
so clearly much more than one and that becomes a good character a lot of times
it's intermediate and then you have to go to other characters on this one is
straightforward, you just measure the pieces of the antenna. Fovea are.
0:8:36.310 --> 0:8:38.10
David Cappaert (Guest)
Go ahead, of course.
0:8:34.730 --> 0:9:4.930
Droege, Sam
I'm yeah. David, can I interrupt? I'm so on the on the to another thing to
think about on the seller diameters that it in discover life. It's not a A1
answer thing. So when we score things what we try to do and this is pretty is
pretty good for the East less so for the West since we only did that once very
quickly at Logan is if there's any ambiguity we'll score it for.
0:9:5.220 --> 0:9:5.810
Droege, Sam
The.
0:9:11.780 --> 0:9:12.140
David Cappaert (Guest)
Right.
0:9:7.380 --> 0:9:25.360
Droege, Sam
The diameter classes that are on either side, so that's that's our optimal
choice. And so that's something to think about. So if you have a question like,
Oh my gosh, is it one or less than one which happens all the time? Click both.
0:9:24.900 --> 0:9:25.480
David Cappaert (Guest)
Umm.
0:9:30.640 --> 0:9:31.600
Zee Searles Mazzacano (they/them) (Guest)
Experience with a big.
0:9:39.740 --> 0:9:40.190
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:9:26.310 --> 0:9:42.800
David Cappaert (Guest)
Right, right. And of course, we've talked about this before. There's a trade
off then. So you're being conservative in giving a broader range, but it also
makes that character less useful and constraining what my choices might be. And
that's just the eternal, you know, challenge of doing a key like this.
0:9:43.460 --> 0:9:43.870
David Cappaert (Guest)
On.
0:9:43.550 --> 0:9:52.790
Droege, Sam
But I'll I'll point out that if you did the concern, if you chose
conservatively and you ended up in answer, your confidence would probably be
higher on the answer.
0:9:54.290 --> 0:9:54.880
Droege, Sam
She.
0:9:54.100 --> 0:10:7.860
David Cappaert (Guest)
Right. And with an interactive key, you got so many different lines of evidence
that you're a little bit protected from that. I have a number of pictures of
phobia phobia are really tough on. You have to have the light correct to see
them.
0:10:8.520 --> 0:10:24.940
David Cappaert (Guest)
On for a while, I wasn't sure what's light and dark, because sometimes dark
hairs look kind of light depending on what the what. The you know how you're
illuminating it. So color width of them on again. For me, the little arrows in
this picture of.
0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:57.30
David Cappaert (Guest)
A phobia that's wider than the antenna base. I kind of have to put those little
arrows arrows on to give myself a sight picture of, OK, that's equal more or
less these two things versus I think I have one where in this one the internal
diameter is clearly greater than that of the the phobia. Another one that's a
huge problem for me is like depth of fovea. Like, how do you figure that out?
Right. And again, it's a lighting question to some extent.
0:10:57.390 --> 0:11:17.770
David Cappaert (Guest)
But you know, I find myself, like, really excited when I find a space where I
can say, ohh yeah, I know that's deep right? So. So it's a very clear thing.
And until you've looked at a bunch of these and compare 1 specimen to another,
the relative deep, not deep thing is you know, it's hard to figure out.
0:11:18.370 --> 0:11:48.250
David Cappaert (Guest)
Umm and I. You know, I don't want to necessarily walk through details on these
because I think it's it's it's more helpful right now for Mike to, you know to
to give his wisdom on all this. One other thing to mention here is Mailer space
Mailer space is really hard if you haven't looked at a whole bunch of specimens
to understand like what are they talking about, if you look at these
structures, there's like there's this space, there's this big wide space,
there's this little, you know, Bowlby thing is that part of it?
0:11:48.870 --> 0:11:51.640
David Cappaert (Guest)
And so it's easy to confuse yourself.
0:11:52.750 --> 0:12:16.130
David Cappaert (Guest)
Until for me, you put these things side by side and you say especially this one
I'm looking at right here. Ohh man that that malar space is very long compared
to this one where I have a little yellow bracket showing that it's much shorter
in this dimension than it is wide. So that's what I'm after. Another thing
that's tricky is when you talk about the.
0:12:16.820 --> 0:12:18.150
David Cappaert (Guest)
The laboral process.
0:12:19.310 --> 0:12:48.740
David Cappaert (Guest)
Entire is fine. Here is 1 where it just smoothly rounds at the at the terminus.
Here's a really cool one when you see it. This strap like label process of
Barbara Barbarous. That's probably a character that by itself really narrows
you to that one species. But otherwise you're looking at emarginate there's a
little indentation here. Bigger indentation. Is this emarginate or is it all
the way to being vidente?
0:12:49.270 --> 0:13:7.350
David Cappaert (Guest)
And you know, I can't always say for sure, but it helps me to look at a range
of pictures and get a sense of what those terms might be describing. And then
I'm gonna just stop with this final character, cause I'm sure Mike is gonna hit
this, but for the novice, which I consider myself still to be.
0:13:8.60 --> 0:13:24.270
David Cappaert (Guest)
Looking at the Pro Notum is is challenging 1 because on most specimens it's
gonna be obscured to some extent by the head or by the hairs or whatever. So
it's hard to get a clear site picture on it. But when you do, you have to try
to decide.
0:13:25.70 --> 0:13:33.740
David Cappaert (Guest)
What the shape of this margin of the of the pronotum is, is it? Is it a sharp
angle or is it a smooth curve?
0:13:34.570 --> 0:13:40.650
David Cappaert (Guest)
And I have to stare at this for a long time before I get a really clear sense
of this. So these pictures help me.
0:13:41.490 --> 0:14:5.990
David Cappaert (Guest)
And then there are these interesting other features besides the humoral angle,
which it would have posterior edge of this. Then you have these sort of ridges
that might run through the pronotum, and then even more interesting, you have this
diagonal suture. That's another like important feature, I know in subgenus
keys. So anyway, I I don't wanna, you know, belabor all of this, but.
0:14:28.730 --> 0:14:29.270
Droege, Sam
So.
0:14:6.790 --> 0:14:29.500
David Cappaert (Guest)
This for me, it's really helpful to get really clear pictures and a lot of
these pictures I put into discover life key, but I love to look at them really
big and also to add a little bit of verbiage so I can, you know, offer a plain
English language description of what I have found useful for these. So that's
my intro to all this. I'd say we should move back to Mike.
0:14:31.500 --> 0:14:32.0
Maffei, Clare J
Thanks.
0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:47.750
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah, I know.
0:14:58.150 --> 0:14:59.470
David Cappaert (Guest)
Absolutely, yeah.
0:14:29.970 --> 0:14:59.820
Droege, Sam
So let me just say, David, I have never seen these things explain so well with
pictures that are illuminating it. These are really difficult shots to get for
most people, particularly the paranodal areas and things is a nightmare. So. So
thank you very much. And also you can answer offline or something. But is this
ready to have to be linked to and it's OK well.
0:15:0.80 --> 0:15:8.560
Droege, Sam
If so, can you put that out to the bee monitoring list? Serve. I mean you
should. You did it. You should be out there chatting. Could you do that? OK.
Alright.
0:15:6.710 --> 0:15:18.430
David Cappaert (Guest)
Sure, sure. No, I would love to. And and I really want to improve this with
anybody else's feedback. And if you know, because I'm deep into this, if
someone says can you please photograph XY?
0:15:19.590 --> 0:15:22.720
David Cappaert (Guest)
You know, if I have a specimen and exhibits it, I'll shoot it.
0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:24.880
Droege, Sam
Yeah, and I'll.
0:15:24.50 --> 0:15:31.190
David Cappaert (Guest)
And luckily, you guys out there have sent me enough spare specimens that I can
break their heads off, which is really helpful.
0:15:32.750 --> 0:15:33.170
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:15:34.130 --> 0:15:34.400
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah.
0:16:1.860 --> 0:16:2.460
David Cappaert (Guest)
Mm-hmm.
0:15:33.930 --> 0:16:4.470
Droege, Sam
All the last thing I'll say and then we can pour it over to Mike is that, you
know, learning it to to learn your whatever the bees are making a guide, even
your own where you just grab pictures or you know just screenshots and make
your own notes that really is useful. You know, all three of us do that. And I
think we've really become better for the process of having to create a guides
ourselves. So it's something that I think anyone can do.
0:16:4.550 --> 0:16:12.720
Droege, Sam
Even if it's just notes to yourself and that will in a way be a good study,
you'll learn you'll it'll fix in your mind better. OK, Mike.
0:16:12.820 --> 0:16:14.360
David Cappaert (Guest)
Umm OK.
0:16:14.350 --> 0:16:14.630
Droege, Sam
Uh.
0:16:15.730 --> 0:16:17.80
Mike Arduser (Guest)
OK. Umm.
0:16:19.10 --> 0:16:30.220
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So people that have been studying andrina for over 100 years, I'll always done
it subgenus by subgenus. It's one of those huge groups and the sub generic
concept helps divide.
0:16:31.80 --> 0:17:0.810
Mike Arduser (Guest)
These hundreds of species up into manageable units, so it's it has a long
history of subgeneric study and publications. And one of the things about
discover life is at the very bottom of that introductory and Drina page, you
have the option of clicking on a subgenus if you know what it is, which greatly
simplifies things. So that's why I had this key to the subgenre in the east,
the greater Midwest.
0:17:1.70 --> 0:17:4.570
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Because it's, it's just, it's a helpful thing. Eliminates.
0:17:5.160 --> 0:17:7.660
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, a lot of headaches.
0:17:8.820 --> 0:17:17.810
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And the very first thing, at least from my perspective, the helps break
everything into two big chunks is what David just finished with. It's the
pronotal features.
0:17:18.700 --> 0:17:21.880
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And this works for both males and females so.
0:17:24.130 --> 0:17:24.480
Mike Arduser (Guest)
OK.
0:17:25.870 --> 0:17:26.650
Mike Arduser (Guest)
OK, OK.
0:17:21.190 --> 0:17:37.380
Droege, Sam
I'm going to share my screen for you, Mike, and so I'll bring your guide up,
OK. And then so there, we are gonna make it a zoom in and then people should
also and you know, write notes on this and your documents that you have from
Claire.
0:17:39.340 --> 0:17:40.320
Droege, Sam
Zoom.
0:17:42.340 --> 0:17:43.720
Droege, Sam
150 why not?
0:17:45.740 --> 0:17:46.740
Droege, Sam
Oh, maybe it was.
0:17:47.450 --> 0:17:48.980
Droege, Sam
Let's go a little bit more.
0:17:50.770 --> 0:17:52.230
Droege, Sam
Umm, how about 200?
0:17:53.830 --> 0:17:58.870
Droege, Sam
OK. All right. And do you go right ahead? Ohh can people see it?
0:17:59.750 --> 0:18:0.160
Mike Arduser (Guest)
I can.
0:18:1.160 --> 0:18:1.450
Droege, Sam
OK.
0:18:0.880 --> 0:18:1.620
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah, looks OK.
0:18:2.190 --> 0:18:2.680
Droege, Sam
Right, good.
0:18:3.280 --> 0:18:6.670
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So David described the pronotum.
0:18:7.440 --> 0:18:9.980
Mike Arduser (Guest)
That's a sickly, and there's more than one feature on it.
0:18:11.210 --> 0:18:40.980
Mike Arduser (Guest)
That's important and the there's what he called the the humoral angle, or the
that corner, so to speak, the back corner and it's shaped which can be very
sharp, like a right angle and then it can go all the way down to a nice smooth
gentle curve. So that's important to look at and also is what we call the
dorsoventral Ridge which extends down vertically from that more or less from
that.
0:18:41.170 --> 0:18:41.930
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Numeral angle.
0:18:42.940 --> 0:18:47.510
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And it varies from very obvious and dramatic to very, very subtle.
0:18:48.250 --> 0:18:48.880
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And.
0:18:49.730 --> 0:19:3.940
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The David mentioned this too, which is hugely important. The more
representatives you see in andrina, that more the easier these features come to
you. To understand that because they are so variable so.
0:19:4.640 --> 0:19:13.310
Mike Arduser (Guest)
For those in that first couplet, if if the pronotum has a Ridge extending down
from it from the humoral angle.
0:19:15.270 --> 0:19:23.790
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And or if it doesn't, that breaks that whole whole genus Andrina into two big
chunks, and it's it's very convenient.
0:19:24.860 --> 0:19:27.350
Mike Arduser (Guest)
To use that. So that's why I kind of stir it off with it.
0:19:28.630 --> 0:19:33.720
Mike Arduser (Guest)
But there is the there are cases where it's you and I would probably say well.
0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:47.30
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Is that a dorsoventral Ridge or isn't it? So there are some iffy, iffy subgenre,
and those come out again later in the key. So that kind of covers the bases.
And if you're not sure.
0:19:48.190 --> 0:19:48.620
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So.
0:19:51.840 --> 0:20:8.160
Mike Arduser (Guest)
If that Ridge isn't present, there are a few instances where there still is a
humoral angle, and that will comes out later in the key too, with the
dorsoventral, Ridge is an obvious feature. If the head isn't smashed up against
the promo and that.
0:20:9.140 --> 0:20:30.610
Mike Arduser (Guest)
That can be a problem, but usually if you know you may be scraped some hairs
away, you kind of get an idea if there's a rich or not. Lighting is everything.
If you don't think you see it, move the specimen and many different angles
until you really are convinced that either it's there or it isn't, and then
move down to the next.
0:20:31.750 --> 0:20:32.780
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So the next couple.
0:20:33.650 --> 0:20:40.840
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So the rest of this key is strictly for females, but I just want to emphasize
that that pronotal feature.
0:20:41.750 --> 0:20:50.400
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Is is for both sexes, so the mail key which we won't get into today also starts
the same way. So it's a useful.
0:20:52.570 --> 0:20:54.820
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh feature for both sexes?
0:20:56.970 --> 0:20:57.360
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm.
0:20:57.550 --> 0:21:0.720
Maffei, Clare J
So Sam, you highlighted there Cori night or not?
0:21:2.410 --> 0:21:4.370
Maffei, Clare J
Is that because you wanted to indicate something?
0:21:8.270 --> 0:21:8.720
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Sure.
0:21:5.290 --> 0:21:16.570
Droege, Sam
Will I think maybe Mike, if you could go back and you know because this is a
tricky little phrase, so why don't you explain explain that one. I think to
folks.
0:21:17.650 --> 0:21:27.400
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, a corona is a sharp edge basically and or an edge maybe. Maybe not
necessarily sharp, but usually.
0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:39.180
Mike Arduser (Guest)
But sometimes the Ridge that's this dorsoventral Ridge on the pronotum is more.
It's a Ridge, but it's more of a rounded Ridge. So you've got one extreme.
You've got a very sharp.
0:21:40.190 --> 0:21:55.970
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Pronounced edge, and that's that's pretty obvious. Almost any lighting then the
other. At the other extreme is a Ridge. That's very subtle, but it's there, but
it's not marked by a strong central rich.
0:21:56.730 --> 0:21:58.440
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And then there's things in between. So.
0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:4.160
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm, just because you don't see a crying, it doesn't mean the Ridge isn't there
and.
0:22:5.800 --> 0:22:13.100
Droege, Sam
Since really a departure from the the the normal smooth plane, if it bulges
out.
0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:13.980
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yep.
0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:14.920
Droege, Sam
Eat that counts.
0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:15.750
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yes.
0:22:27.650 --> 0:22:28.280
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:31.660
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, and and many of them are just simply that it's a bulge or a kind of a an
uprising in the pro node a minute. Some of those are easy to miss. It really it
took it takes. It took me a long time to really.
0:22:32.410 --> 0:22:33.520
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Get a handle on that.
0:22:33.900 --> 0:22:38.250
Droege, Sam
Yeah, like bank Banksy and Cressoni are good examples of subtle.
0:22:37.920 --> 0:22:39.930
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah. Yep, Yep.
0:22:42.820 --> 0:22:44.230
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So if.
0:22:45.550 --> 0:23:1.0
Mike Arduser (Guest)
If you're convinced that you've got a Ridge of one kind or another, then the
next step is moving down and starting to look at other features, and again, the
from now on it's all about the females, so that we're not gonna be talking
about the males, just strictly the females.
0:23:1.630 --> 0:23:8.350
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So this this next subgenera or subgenus Archie Andrina is a unusual one. Most
of us probably never see them.
0:23:8.980 --> 0:23:16.580
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, and it's one of the unusual things about this subgenus is that the one the
first flagellar segment?
0:23:17.350 --> 0:23:18.600
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Is really short.
0:23:19.360 --> 0:23:29.880
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And once you see enough other and andrina females, that's very unusual. Most of
them have much, much longer, if one.
0:23:31.790 --> 0:23:32.280
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So.
0:23:34.30 --> 0:23:34.530
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, yeah.
0:23:35.670 --> 0:23:36.0
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yep.
0:23:32.500 --> 0:23:38.800
Maffei, Clare J
Look question real quick from the chat to interrupt with is the dorso ventral
Ridge the same as the pronotal Ridge?
0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:40.950
Maffei, Clare J
As we have some.
0:23:43.330 --> 0:23:43.880
Maffei, Clare J
Jargon.
0:23:40.550 --> 0:23:46.980
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yes, in general would that you know, that brings up a very good point.
0:23:48.80 --> 0:24:7.570
Mike Arduser (Guest)
But sometimes we use different phrases or words for the same structure and I'm
not intentionally, but I mean historically different terms have been used for
the same thing. And Claire, you just brought up a good instance of it. But
generally speaking, I think most of the later Andrina work in the last two or
three, four decades.
0:24:7.920 --> 0:24:16.810
Mike Arduser (Guest)
This is emphasized the dorsal ventral Ridge. You know. And then what that
indicates is dorsal to ventral. There's a Ridge that runs basically
perpendicular or vertical.
0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:17.800
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm.
0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:21.870
Mike Arduser (Guest)
I don't. That's that helps.
0:24:22.370 --> 0:24:28.90
Droege, Sam
Vertical to to sometimes at a slight angle. Yeah. Yep.
0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:29.460
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Slight angle, slight angle. It's true. Yeah, depending on your view and.
0:24:29.340 --> 0:24:31.580
Droege, Sam
It it really is a very varied structure.
0:24:32.630 --> 0:24:35.100
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, it's fascinating, actually. And.
0:24:36.260 --> 0:24:46.870
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And David pointed out one of the maybe the most dramatic aspects of it which we
get to here shortly, is in, in, in certain group of andrina there's a.
0:24:48.830 --> 0:25:5.400
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Sulcus, or a division or a groove that that gets involved in this that kind of
crosses the Ridge or stops the Ridge. We'll get to that shortly. So anyway arc
Andrea is a really small group, only a couple species and.
0:25:7.70 --> 0:25:19.790
Mike Arduser (Guest)
We really don't know much about him. I mean, I don't know. That's have never
been found and I don't think and it's they're they're unusual, you know,
they're andrina. But the F1 being super short is very, very unusual.
0:25:21.600 --> 0:25:21.950
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Go ahead.
0:25:30.660 --> 0:25:31.590
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Ah.
0:25:43.670 --> 0:25:44.440
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Super rare.
0:25:20.540 --> 0:25:47.740
Droege, Sam
I'll. I'll, I'll mention that I I recently saw mendica. I'd never seen him
before in a whole bunch of canopy traps from Georgia. So and and it was, there
were a bunch and so and the. If you look at collections, there are almost none
of these of that species have been found recently. And the total numbers are
really rare too. So some of the think about.
0:25:49.850 --> 0:26:1.80
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So the second part of Couplet 2, which is this in smaller font and I didn't see
it here for a minute after one is in all the other entry units, F1 is almost
always.
0:26:1.520 --> 0:26:4.720
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh as long or longer than F2 plus F3?
0:26:5.510 --> 0:26:8.70
Mike Arduser (Guest)
It's not. It's not short and.
0:26:9.670 --> 0:26:13.490
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And that's pretty easy to see. David had a good a good image of that.
0:26:15.450 --> 0:26:17.450
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So then a couple of three.
0:26:18.730 --> 0:26:29.940
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Gets into another pronotal feature that again, David had good shot of. This is
where the the dorsal ventral Ridge or the pronotum is gets crossed or bisected
or.
0:26:30.650 --> 0:26:32.450
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh. Interrupted by a.
0:26:33.410 --> 0:26:36.800
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Basically a group. It's a deep, narrow sulk, as it's something it's not.
0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:51.10
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Hard to miss if you're lighting is good and you can see the pronotum and that
is unique to this subgenus. Thailand Drina, which now because time marches on
Thailand Arena, has been merged with Mel Andrina.
0:26:52.610 --> 0:27:2.820
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So there are three in the East, there are three species of Andrina that had
this groove or this sulcus that's involved with the dorsoventral Ridge and
it's.
0:27:3.760 --> 0:27:24.710
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Erythro Gaster Perplexo are the real obvious ones. Then there's another one,
Wilma time. That's not quite as obvious, but it's considered part of these are
all big bees. These are 121314 millimeter Andreas. They're big. And so
historically, they're all called Thailand Marina. But now that's been merged
with Mel Andrina. But if you.
0:27:25.420 --> 0:27:31.850
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And in all the literature you Thailand dream is still the historically the the
subgenus that you would.
0:27:33.540 --> 0:27:51.460
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Into the primary literature you look for. So all the other end and during is
that have a Ridge dorsoventral Ridge don't have this Ridge interrupted or
bisected or with a groove that cuts through it or terminates in it. So that's a
really unique feature. And these are common, fairly common bees, at least in
the Midwest.
0:27:52.380 --> 0:27:54.590
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And I'll spring species.
0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:56.10
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And.
0:27:58.170 --> 0:28:1.550
Mike Arduser (Guest)
I don't. I don't know how common they are. I'd like Audies, but here they're
pretty common.
0:28:4.190 --> 0:28:15.520
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So the other thing in the second part of a couplet, 3 pygidial plate, which you
all know what that is. In the females, it's just nice. Basically triangular,
more or less.
0:28:15.920 --> 0:28:47.500
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, very usually hairless structure terminates the T66 turtle, sometimes
covered with soil or dirt because they use it and testing, but it's very
variable in its shape, its size, whether it's got it internal triangle. That's
a very useful feature in many respects, but again, often T6 is hidden or not
fully exposed unless you.
0:28:49.150 --> 0:28:52.670
Mike Arduser (Guest)
During your printing or afterwards somehow expose it.
0:28:54.270 --> 0:28:59.630
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So sometimes I mean you can't see it, but if you can, it can be a very useful
feature.
0:29:3.620 --> 0:29:16.630
Mike Arduser (Guest)
An all female andrina that one and some of the males have a a semblance of 1,
so it can be it can be really super useful for the next group is another pretty
straightforward one and go ahead.
0:29:17.650 --> 0:29:18.560
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Sure, sure.
0:29:15.330 --> 0:29:25.980
Maffei, Clare J
Can we backtrack just a second? So you said the till andrina have this, but now
is it only a couple of species of melodrama or is it like in a full split?
0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:28.630
Maffei, Clare J
What what happened there?
0:29:27.550 --> 0:29:31.60
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah. No. Yeah. Thailand. Yeah, yeah.
0:29:31.570 --> 0:29:33.400
Maffei, Clare J
That didn't seem right. Confused.
0:29:31.850 --> 0:29:35.580
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Of yeah. Well, yeah.
0:29:35.660 --> 0:29:45.300
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm, there is a there's been. There is still an ongoing folks that are
basically reevaluating andrina subgenera.
0:29:46.210 --> 0:30:3.300
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm, with the, you know, molecular information as well as different
morphological stuff. And so one of the first changes is Thailand Arena now is
not Thailand Arena, it's these species are merged with Mel Endrina, which makes
Mel Endrina.
0:30:4.470 --> 0:30:6.150
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, you know a bigger group.
0:30:8.190 --> 0:30:8.410
Droege, Sam
Right.
0:30:7.0 --> 0:30:9.660
Mike Arduser (Guest)
You know, that's just the way. Go ahead, Sam.
0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:14.160
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yes.
0:30:10.40 --> 0:30:17.440
Droege, Sam
Did they? Did they publish that? That was on the video thing that we saw, but
is that now published?
0:30:18.890 --> 0:30:19.310
Droege, Sam
OK.
0:30:17.540 --> 0:30:20.550
Mike Arduser (Guest)
It is. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, Yep.
0:30:29.940 --> 0:30:30.800
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, yeah.
0:30:20.50 --> 0:30:31.660
Droege, Sam
And how many other cause when I saw their presentation, they were, let's say,
messing around with a whole bunch of subgenera. How far did they go?
0:30:32.220 --> 0:30:34.590
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm well you andrina.
0:30:35.910 --> 0:30:39.770
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Which will? I don't know if we'll get too late today, but you andrina is.
0:30:39.870 --> 0:30:55.140
Mike Arduser (Guest)
It's a traditional subgenus within Andrina on both sides of the Atlantic, and
it has gotten merged or many of its elements have gotten merged with an I hate
to even say this, not this tiland arena, but there's another PTI.
0:30:57.100 --> 0:30:57.380
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:31:1.950 --> 0:31:2.380
Droege, Sam
I'm.
0:31:2.430 --> 0:31:4.240
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Probably won't get to that today, but.
0:31:4.270 --> 0:31:4.620
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:31:6.650 --> 0:31:7.630
Droege, Sam
I think what?
0:31:4.380 --> 0:31:8.710
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm, yeah. And also those are the two that I can remember.
0:31:9.130 --> 0:31:40.880
Droege, Sam
Right. So I think we're in for it. And you know there's gonna be more of these
kinds of things. I remember they're like, well, you know, the several of these
species are in different subgenera and actually should not be blah, blah, blah.
So I think what we might end up do having to do is like, OK, here is the old
classification. And again, it's still useful to get to a species. And because
the literature is.
0:31:43.90 --> 0:31:43.610
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Absolutely.
0:31:57.120 --> 0:31:57.920
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, yeah.
0:31:41.0 --> 0:32:10.350
Droege, Sam
Basically, based on this, that's good and then we will have like in discover
life, we could have. Each species can be the old classification. Then we can
show in another couplet the new classification and then you're on your own. You
know what I mean? So here, maybe we should list this. And then, David, you're
gonna have to figure it out too that this now reflects since it's been
published, right? This reflects the old classification scheme.
0:32:15.370 --> 0:32:15.640
Droege, Sam
OK.
0:32:11.180 --> 0:32:32.880
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah, actually, Sam, just I've put it in the chat, but what I'm hoping is that
the this current scheme is gonna be valid for years to come because it's
morphologically, it works. But in terms of the file genetics, it doesn't work.
Are we gonna have somebody blow all this up in the next year or two and have to
start from scratch?
0:32:34.740 --> 0:32:55.510
Droege, Sam
Well, the names so I might can say what he thinks here, but my impression is
that a lot of the species that are classified using this scheme right now.
Thank you, Wally Laberge for North America are going to move around like, you
know, perplexed A is.
0:32:55.720 --> 0:33:25.220
Droege, Sam
One thing now in the old scheme, but is going to be melodrama later, so that's
why I'm saying that for a while we'll have to acknowledge or just say what
scheme are you using here? And in this case it's the old scheme and almost
everyone's doing that. But then I think the the new scheme, let's call it, is
gonna be unsettled for quite a while because they can't get their hands on
every single freaking species. There's 500, right. So.
0:33:26.520 --> 0:33:33.270
Droege, Sam
I think we'll be using the old scheme for quite some time, but we need to let
people know that the subgenus.
0:33:33.690 --> 0:33:37.960
Droege, Sam
Umm, characterization for any individual species.
0:33:38.950 --> 0:33:49.940
Droege, Sam
Umm needs to be is changing but this will get you to in. The guides will get
you to an answer of what the species is, which is sort of the point, right?
0:33:51.60 --> 0:33:51.880
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, totally.
0:34:17.580 --> 0:34:17.970
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:33:52.770 --> 0:34:19.990
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, I yeah, the historical documents will not go away. I mean, they're
they're always gonna be there. Those names will always be there. And I think I
agree it's, it's useful if you want to identify species. And that's again, what
we manage species and populations, not subgenera. So that's what you really
want to know. And in a way, it doesn't matter how you get there as long as you
get there. If you use multiple sources, that's great. But these are names are
always going to be around.
0:34:21.30 --> 0:34:31.60
Droege, Sam
So I would one last point would be that just because the the DNA people are
moving species around doesn't mean that the.
0:34:32.380 --> 0:35:0.970
Droege, Sam
That the the the new groupings, let's call them of subgenera and maybe even
entirely new subgenre, are going to be easy to key out to subgenus, right.
These were based on morphology primarily. So it works even though it's tricky
it's it's a morphologically based one. They're talking about a molecularly
based one and we will wait and see. But you may not be able to get.
0:35:1.150 --> 0:35:23.320
Droege, Sam
A very coherent morphological case. That's what we're gonna look at. We're not
looking at their DNA. We're looking at things on their the microscope. But so
I'm just warning people that just because they move things around doesn't mean
it's gonna make it easier to ID. It's probably the opposite. And making this
relevant for, you know, in way into the future, I would think.
0:35:26.40 --> 0:35:26.540
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Agreed.
0:35:28.260 --> 0:35:29.20
Maffei, Clare J
All around agree.
0:35:32.100 --> 0:35:32.340
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:35:30.690 --> 0:35:32.660
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, it's just the way science works.
0:35:33.260 --> 0:35:33.580
Droege, Sam
Great.
0:35:34.250 --> 0:35:41.960
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm, so a couple of four is another very straight forward forward one. Does the
bee have two submarginal cells or three?
0:35:43.210 --> 0:35:53.680
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And that's pretty straightforward, and most andrina males and females have
three submarginal cells. There are a couple.
0:35:54.470 --> 0:36:1.760
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, that have two, and it's usually very it's obvious. It's not like is that
you know, is that too or is it three it's one or the other?
0:36:2.520 --> 0:36:10.950
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And in the East it's very simple, because there's just, it's just this one
group here, endrina. And these are Willow specialists in the east and.
0:36:11.360 --> 0:36:11.860
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm.
0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:17.840
Mike Arduser (Guest)
You know they're collecting from willows. You're probably likely to run into
one of them anyway.
0:36:19.270 --> 0:36:27.910
Mike Arduser (Guest)
But off the top of my head, I think there are three, at least in the Midwest
and they're, you know, they're medium sized, Andreas. They do have the dorsoventral
Ridge.
0:36:28.690 --> 0:36:31.790
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And what they've got to some marginal cells. So if you see an endrina.
0:36:32.550 --> 0:36:40.210
Mike Arduser (Guest)
In the east, with the dorsoventral Ridge and two submarginal cells, that's
paranoia period and.
0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:46.230
Droege, Sam
What's this? What's also just point out two submarginal cells on both wings.
You wanna? Yeah.
0:37:2.990 --> 0:37:3.240
Droege, Sam
Hmm.
0:36:44.310 --> 0:37:3.440
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Right. Good point. Good point. Yeah, you always had to look at both. That's
true. And and weird things happen. I mean, it's sometimes the wings we saw in a
sevaster attributes. The last workshop we did in January that had four
submarginal cells and both wings. I've never seen that.
0:37:3.730 --> 0:37:4.460
Maffei, Clare J
That's weird.
0:37:4.720 --> 0:37:9.990
Mike Arduser (Guest)
It was very weird and was symmetric. It was perfect. Each wing was carbon copy
of the other.
0:37:12.80 --> 0:37:12.810
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So.
0:37:12.450 --> 0:37:13.130
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:37:12.60 --> 0:37:19.100
Maffei, Clare J
Naggins wondering if people ever misidentify para andrina as not an andrina
because of the two step marginal cells?
0:37:19.790 --> 0:37:22.370
Maffei, Clare J
Or would it not key out to anything else anyway?
0:37:24.380 --> 0:37:28.310
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Well, I got maybe probably make depends on what key you're using, I guess if.
0:37:29.780 --> 0:37:35.830
Mike Arduser (Guest)
You know of all the mega pilots have to some marginal cells and there are
certain other species and other groups that have too.
0:37:37.790 --> 0:37:43.740
Mike Arduser (Guest)
I would think you know if you know andrina at all, I think it would be pretty
obvious. You know, the facial phobia are there.
0:37:44.490 --> 0:37:47.50
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And the females and you won't see that in any of the other.
0:37:48.50 --> 0:37:50.420
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Other groups, so I think it would be pretty obvious.
0:37:51.830 --> 0:37:52.20
Droege, Sam
Yep.
0:37:52.110 --> 0:37:52.460
Mike Arduser (Guest)
That's.
0:37:52.820 --> 0:37:58.270
Maffei, Clare J
And Bonnies wondering if in the Pacific Northwest, if there are any other
subgenres.
0:37:59.910 --> 0:38:0.390
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Ohh.
0:37:59.840 --> 0:38:1.460
Maffei, Clare J
With two submarginal cells.
0:38:1.120 --> 0:38:6.70
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yes, yes, it's things are different. On the other side in the West, I mean.
0:38:6.820 --> 0:38:14.70
Mike Arduser (Guest)
A lot of these subgenera Co occur. They're they're, you know, they have dozens
of species throughout the North American continent.
0:38:14.670 --> 0:38:17.210
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm and parent?
0:38:16.470 --> 0:38:20.770
David Cappaert (Guest)
Out West, one of those is die Andrina. We'll have two sub cells.
0:38:19.510 --> 0:38:23.300
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Right. Yep. Yep. And there are parent during that too out West.
0:38:23.950 --> 0:38:24.350
David Cappaert (Guest)
Umm.
0:38:25.150 --> 0:38:25.630
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So.
0:38:27.140 --> 0:38:32.830
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And I, yeah, my my knowledge of the Pacific Northwest Andrina is not very good,
so.
0:38:36.430 --> 0:38:39.670
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So parent arena and these do some marginal sales dorsoventral Ridge.
0:38:40.490 --> 0:38:42.260
Mike Arduser (Guest)
In both sexes in this case.
0:38:43.500 --> 0:38:54.110
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Then there's another strange one, very unique one, which used to be in a
separate genus called Ryoma. Lissa. Now it's a subset subgenus of Andrina, but
there's only.
0:38:55.320 --> 0:39:0.650
Mike Arduser (Guest)
At the moment, there's only one species in that subgenus, and that's and you're
gonna Violi.
0:39:1.460 --> 0:39:14.810
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And it stands apart in the east because it has a very long tongue, and by then
I mean very long time relative to all other entries in the East, which usually
have little paintbrush type tongue.
0:39:15.560 --> 0:39:24.60
Mike Arduser (Guest)
But the andrina Violi as a thread like Tom and it's it's quite long. I mean you
can't miss it. Sometimes it is tough.
0:39:23.540 --> 0:39:24.140
Maffei, Clare J
Turn me like.
0:39:24.960 --> 0:39:27.590
Maffei, Clare J
Thinking like melatonin along or.
0:39:27.150 --> 0:39:44.630
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Not quite. Not quite that long, but it's shaped that way, and it's long, long
and thread like and it's probably 10 or 12 times as long as broad, but the
issue is that it gets tucked under the head in sometimes, and it's not always.
In fact, I'd say most often.
0:39:45.390 --> 0:39:59.290
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, you know, not it's it's not always recognizable as such, but there are
another thing about that species, Andrew and Violet. It's the clypeus is just.
0:40:0.510 --> 0:40:15.910
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Inflated as the only word I can think of, it's very very bulb is kind of like a
anthophora and inside view and lateral view that collect. This is just bulbous
and unlike any of the other andrina that we have in the East and very, very
distinctive.
0:40:16.780 --> 0:40:17.100
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Umm.
0:40:17.950 --> 0:40:19.380
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So if you can't see.
0:40:20.830 --> 0:40:21.440
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The tongue.
0:40:22.480 --> 0:40:26.860
Mike Arduser (Guest)
You you will see the clips and it's pretty dramatic. I mean that's my
perspective.
0:40:27.550 --> 0:40:28.200
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And uh.
0:40:29.580 --> 0:40:30.720
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So that's a pretty obvious one.
0:40:33.570 --> 0:40:51.830
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And will you? I used to think Violi was very rare because I hardly ever found
it. But then people, we all started putting out blue bowls and it kind of shows
up everywhere. And it flies with the females fly very low to the ground. That's
violets grow low to the ground and in a very.
0:40:51.910 --> 0:41:0.550
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, erratic way. And once I learned that, you know, you can't see them in the
field and observe them and collect them. And just to leave some time to learn
it.
0:41:2.70 --> 0:41:2.580
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So.
0:41:3.380 --> 0:41:24.160
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The next the next option then if you everything all the other entering a
females and he's had the tongue the glossy is very short and that's not you
would never confuse it with the violin. And the clypeus is while not always
flat it's very weakly convex or inflated compared to Emily.
0:41:25.750 --> 0:41:31.700
Maffei, Clare J
Do we, umm. Molly wants to know if we know the preferred Violet species for
that endrina.
0:41:40.790 --> 0:41:41.110
Droege, Sam
I can.
0:41:41.990 --> 0:41:42.270
Droege, Sam
Yep.
0:41:32.50 --> 0:41:44.990
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, Sam can speak to this too. I almost always find them at the blue lavender
type Violet like Soria or some of the others. I've never found him at yellow,
which always kind of interest me.
0:41:51.320 --> 0:41:51.590
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah.
0:42:0.580 --> 0:42:0.830
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah.
0:42:13.970 --> 0:42:14.260
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah.
0:41:45.720 --> 0:42:16.410
Droege, Sam
Yeah. So and also that's a very common sort of weed invader. If you don't treat
your lawn. So if you gotta have shady lawn or just almost anywhere and they'll
be in yards. So it's a out here, it's a really common species. And when we've
done a couple sort of very extensive bowl color trials and Mike's right they
only end up in blue bowls and almost all the other andrina are in.
0:42:16.510 --> 0:42:23.350
Droege, Sam
The Yellow Bowls and a few in white, but it's really, really they're they're
doing something really differ.
0:42:22.960 --> 0:42:24.670
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:28.220
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So that's that's.
0:42:27.260 --> 0:42:41.370
Droege, Sam
Yeah, I I don't know that anyone. It would be interesting to look at that life
history, right? Why that big? Why all these features and what is it about
getting something out of violets like you just don't see that many things go to
violets to begin with. But.
0:42:42.780 --> 0:42:43.380
Droege, Sam
There it is.
0:42:43.670 --> 0:42:44.680
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, there are.
0:42:45.940 --> 0:42:56.950
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, they're in multiple other least it out here. They're in parents. They're
in wetlands. They're in forests and they're in yards. So it's one of those
andrina species that.
0:42:58.630 --> 0:43:4.700
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The curse of money multiple habitats, as do violence. So that's kind of
interesting as well.
0:43:6.770 --> 0:43:12.20
Mike Arduser (Guest)
That's no, that's have never been found. It's hard right now, so that might be
kind of interesting though.
0:43:12.750 --> 0:43:19.490
Mike Arduser (Guest)
If you get lucky enough to find the nest, might be very interesting to see how
it's that nest is managed OK.
0:43:21.180 --> 0:43:34.970
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So, so, so far you've seen with with this, this group of andrina with the
dorsoventral Ridge, these are fairly distinct subgenre and fairly small. It's
not like any of these sub gender have.
0:43:35.420 --> 0:43:41.750
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh. Dozens of species. The next one's a similar case this couplet 6.
0:43:42.980 --> 0:43:44.850
Mike Arduser (Guest)
His eye andrina Miserables.
0:43:46.620 --> 0:43:51.30
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And live in the subgenus layer, andrina, which again in the traditional.
0:43:52.240 --> 0:43:58.290
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Subgeneric literature. There's only one species of Larry Andrina, and that's
this is Robles.
0:43:59.150 --> 0:44:29.260
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Do you look at the maps? Though? Miserables occurs very throughout the country
and there is one subgenus, or one subspecies in Florida, so this may be one of
those species. It's actually a complex of species. I don't know that anybody's
looked into it seriously, but when you see a species that's widespread across
the whole continent, I mean you gotta wonder sometimes if we just aren't
looking hard enough. But anyway, Miserables females are very distinctive. The
clypeus is.
0:44:29.760 --> 0:44:36.180
Mike Arduser (Guest)
At least, at least in its central 3rd and sometimes more, it's just brilliantly
shiny without any punctures.
0:44:36.940 --> 0:44:41.460
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, and without any micro sculpture. It's just this very mirror like.
0:44:42.780 --> 0:44:46.310
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Shining clypeus that's weakly convex.
0:44:49.690 --> 0:44:50.460
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And.
0:44:52.940 --> 0:45:2.850
Mike Arduser (Guest)
There is no mail or space. Remember, that's David had some good images of that.
There's still the malar space. There's just nothing there. The mandible and the
eye are pretty much in context.
0:45:3.860 --> 0:45:4.870
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The tergites.
0:45:6.90 --> 0:45:15.540
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Are are different, don't have many punctures at all under most except super
high magnification, they're shiny and what we didn't.
0:45:16.260 --> 0:45:25.390
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh didn't talk about this yet, and this is another very largely specialized
feature bandinis the proportial scopa. Now some other bees have it.
0:45:26.130 --> 0:45:31.960
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh, and this is a pollen collecting structure of hairs on the sides that the
propidium.
0:45:32.700 --> 0:45:47.100
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And in some andrina, it's just this elaborate structure composed of pairs. It's
really pretty dramatic, but they use it to carry pollen, obviously, and so it's
a very useful feature, and it has.
0:45:48.580 --> 0:46:6.550
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Arguably it's maybe the most variable feature of all female and arenas. I mean
it just it goes from in one case like a total basket and the other extreme is
it's hardly there at all. So and then there's everything in between. So the
proposal scope is incredibly variable, incredibly useful.
0:46:7.510 --> 0:46:8.260
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Structure.
0:46:9.670 --> 0:46:10.210
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And.
0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:17.500
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Of course, sometimes it's loaded with pollen and you have trouble
distinguishing some of the.
0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:31.340
Mike Arduser (Guest)
These features about the proposal scope, but usually you can flick off that
pollen is in there. You can usually flick off enough of it to get an idea, so
the proposal scope. I don't know if David, if you have pictures images of that.
0:46:30.810 --> 0:46:34.390
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah, I was gonna say before we go too much further. Can we flip over to?
0:46:37.700 --> 0:46:38.0
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:46:38.860 --> 0:46:39.690
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, that would be.
0:46:39.370 --> 0:46:39.940
Droege, Sam
Are you?
0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:42.30
Droege, Sam
Do you want?
0:46:34.940 --> 0:46:44.230
Maffei, Clare J
UM, days like maybe Sam can just do that since you already have control of the
screen. I know that you have pictures in there of the.
0:46:45.70 --> 0:46:46.100
Maffei, Clare J
Curricula and then.
0:46:48.110 --> 0:46:49.10
Droege, Sam
So David's gonna.
0:46:47.730 --> 0:46:49.310
Maffei, Clare J
So I have two questions for the chat.
0:46:50.340 --> 0:46:51.80
Droege, Sam
OK. But.
0:46:50.40 --> 0:46:52.290
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah. Can you do it since or? I mean, I can.
0:46:51.840 --> 0:46:52.320
Droege, Sam
David.
0:46:53.310 --> 0:46:54.750
Droege, Sam
Or or can David?
0:46:55.410 --> 0:46:56.660
Droege, Sam
Because he knows how to do it now.
0:46:56.960 --> 0:46:59.40
Maffei, Clare J
Well, yeah, just so long as it goes up.
0:46:59.750 --> 0:47:0.420
David Cappaert (Guest)
I can.
0:47:1.810 --> 0:47:3.90
David Cappaert (Guest)
I can try. Let's see.
0:47:3.830 --> 0:47:4.960
Droege, Sam
OK. And while you're.
0:47:3.810 --> 0:47:5.80
Maffei, Clare J
OK. We'll give it one try.
0:47:3.760 --> 0:47:7.100
David Cappaert (Guest)
Could I repeat what I did before? If you if someone else can do it.
0:47:6.170 --> 0:47:7.300
Droege, Sam
While David's doing that.
0:47:8.170 --> 0:47:8.700
Maffei, Clare J
I got it.
0:47:8.590 --> 0:47:9.680
Droege, Sam
OK, alright.
0:47:9.360 --> 0:47:10.300
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah, do it.
0:47:11.200 --> 0:47:17.10
Maffei, Clare J
Times also wondering where we can find information on the subspecies from
Florida. I think he's referring to Miserables.
0:47:17.920 --> 0:47:18.520
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh.
0:47:17.920 --> 0:47:21.10
Maffei, Clare J
And then we're going to talk about spaces.
0:47:21.870 --> 0:47:23.990
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Mitchell mentions it.
0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:25.590
Droege, Sam
Umm.
0:47:24.860 --> 0:47:29.410
Mike Arduser (Guest)
In the Mitchell's volume one, he mentions that subspecies and.
0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:41.440
Droege, Sam
Yeah.
0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:41.770
Mike Arduser (Guest)
They're they're fairly, I mean, I've collected them down there and they do look
a little different and it wouldn't be unusual out of the ordinary for that
thing to really be a separate species. I don't know. I'm not saying it is, but.
0:47:41.750 --> 0:47:42.350
David Cappaert (Guest)
There you go.
0:47:44.950 --> 0:47:45.310
Mike Arduser (Guest)
OK.
0:48:7.320 --> 0:48:7.960
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah.
0:47:43.210 --> 0:48:13.280
Droege, Sam
I'll I'll make a comment here on them, which is most of the time many much of
the time it's super clear because of all this big shiny Dome, like very few
pits. It's just unusual. And then there's these ones where it's a big it's,
it's more like a big central bear stripe that's much wider than normal, but not
the same. And this may be where we're getting into the subspecies or something
else. And a little thing that's been helpful in like, am I.
0:48:13.500 --> 0:48:35.320
Droege, Sam
In my missing something here because the the it's pretty extremely different.
All the other characters are the same, but slightly unusual thing for
Miserables is that the scopal hairs on the hind legs are only are branched but
not plumose. So in other words, it's not in this in the center of the.
0:48:35.740 --> 0:48:57.260
Droege, Sam
Umm, a tibia. You have long hairs. First glance, they all look simple. But when
you dial in there, you see that they're actually 3 or 4 branches and they're
pretty long. And that's been several times helpful in the, you know, dealing
with the Miserables that I'm like, is it, am I? I'm not sure so.
0:48:58.30 --> 0:48:58.900
Droege, Sam
That's my two cents.
0:48:59.620 --> 0:49:14.560
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, it's a group that needs some serious work. I think. I bet they're there.
Might be some things hiding in there. OK. David's got up on the screen or
Claire has that. You're looking at adrena female in lateral view.
0:49:15.380 --> 0:49:21.960
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And in within that circle, that yellow circle is the proposal or propanediol,
corbicula or scopa?
0:49:22.800 --> 0:49:26.960
Mike Arduser (Guest)
They want to think of it, and that is this is a case where it's loaded with
pollen.
0:49:28.120 --> 0:49:28.650
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And.
0:49:30.370 --> 0:49:43.230
Mike Arduser (Guest)
If that pollen were removed or not there, then you would see the internal
component, the internal part of that corbicula, and oh, excellent. And in some
species that internal.
0:49:45.370 --> 0:49:52.570
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Part is utterly bare, no hairs at all, and it's in this case it's almost like a
perfect basket.
0:49:53.470 --> 0:50:21.210
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And in other cases, there are a bunch of internal hairs. Sometimes those hairs
are plumose, sometimes they're simple, sometimes they're short, sometimes
they're few, sometimes they're many. So they internal nature of the proposal
curricula is important, too. And the surroundings that beautiful basket life
structure, that's a case of what we call the proposal corbicula is complete or
entire, and that the whole it's all there. It's just a complete encircled.
0:50:21.710 --> 0:50:24.960
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh. A group of plumose hairs. Gorgeous.
0:50:25.850 --> 0:50:35.130
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And they're very few andrina females that have a groups that have the
proportial curricula that entire that complete and with no internal hairs.
0:50:35.930 --> 0:50:43.220
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And that becomes. We talk about that later, but that's a hugely important
structure for andrina. I mean, you just, you can't no matter what.
0:50:43.990 --> 0:50:51.530
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Key you use what's invariably you have to look at. That seems like. So that's
those are excellent photos.
0:50:52.750 --> 0:50:57.750
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So it's under basically under the hindwing and on the sides of the.
0:50:58.750 --> 0:51:8.800
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Property and they don't always look as nice as that one. Sometimes they're more
incomplete. There might not be a fruit. There might be no fringe on the front
part.
0:51:8.590 --> 0:51:14.930
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah, I was gonna say, can you talk about like how where the fringe might be?
Because it looks like here with the incomplete one, it's.
0:51:15.540 --> 0:51:16.150
Maffei, Clare J
Umm.
0:51:19.770 --> 0:51:20.210
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah.
0:51:17.220 --> 0:51:21.530
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, that's a good one, David. That could cause you what what you see on the
one.
0:51:22.10 --> 0:51:22.870
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh book.
0:51:24.420 --> 0:51:25.370
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yes, right.
0:51:22.980 --> 0:51:25.430
Maffei, Clare J
This one incomplete here, right? But yeah.
0:51:26.250 --> 0:51:31.70
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And there is no. You see the friends on top and at the back, but in the front
part.
0:51:32.370 --> 0:51:35.960
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Alongside where you'd see the margin, the posterior margin of the.
0:51:37.330 --> 0:51:37.980
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Miso.
0:51:39.900 --> 0:51:47.900
Mike Arduser (Guest)
No, no meta plural. There's no fringe of hair, so it's incomplete, and it looks
like there's some internal hairs in there I can't tell for sure.
0:51:48.740 --> 0:51:49.580
Maffei, Clare J
Yes, as internal.
0:51:48.670 --> 0:51:55.880
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So those are two two big differences. Complete the images on top and incomplete
below.
0:52:1.460 --> 0:52:2.100
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yep, Yep.
0:52:6.410 --> 0:52:6.890
Mike Arduser (Guest)
That's right.
0:51:57.470 --> 0:52:12.0
Maffei, Clare J
And complete refers to just that the fringe is all the way around. Or is it the
drama of this fringe? How plumose how curvy like is that like is this looks
shorter, but is that just virtue of a photograph?
0:52:17.10 --> 0:52:17.270
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah.
0:52:20.390 --> 0:52:21.990
Maffei, Clare J
Around the basket.
0:52:12.820 --> 0:52:23.680
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Maybe this, but that this is this is the classic complete for podium. Yeah, I
mean the hairs go from front to back. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep.
0:52:24.420 --> 0:52:41.60
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And so those are kind of two extremes and there are a few species where the
tropical bikila is lit almost. It's essentially gone. There are hairs there,
but they're not modified hairs the way the ones you're looking at are. And
those are a couple we can talk about those.
0:52:42.260 --> 0:52:45.240
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Down the road, so that's a hugely important structure.
0:52:48.150 --> 0:52:48.430
Mike Arduser (Guest)
OK.
0:52:47.210 --> 0:52:49.630
Maffei, Clare J
Great and I.
0:52:51.370 --> 0:52:54.900
Maffei, Clare J
So Mike asked. Complete means 360 degrees around.
0:52:56.870 --> 0:52:57.300
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah.
0:52:55.280 --> 0:52:58.980
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Or I'll close to it. You know, I mean, 323 and 20, you know.
0:53:0.590 --> 0:53:13.900
Maffei, Clare J
And I went always confused about the measurement of Mallard space where it
starts and where it ends. So while while we have eyes question up here and the
screen, I'm going to find the malware spaces which maybe we're up higher.
0:53:14.390 --> 0:53:14.900
David Cappaert (Guest)
Upper.
0:53:18.460 --> 0:53:18.930
Maffei, Clare J
Here we go.
0:53:22.140 --> 0:53:27.810
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah. So the, uh, the malar space above and below.
0:53:28.660 --> 0:53:58.70
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Easy, because it between the end of the eye, the lower margin of the eye, which
is easy to see, and then the the base, the flex point of the mandible and if
there's a space between those two, that's the malar space. The difficulty
becomes of course laterally because there's no clear demarcation. Latterly
there is eventually endorsable. You've got the edge of the in the base of the
mandible, but the trick comes.
0:53:58.570 --> 0:53:59.120
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Well.
0:54:0.40 --> 0:54:1.190
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Where are the lateral?
0:54:2.310 --> 0:54:3.0
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Margins.
0:54:3.780 --> 0:54:5.220
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And I just use it usually.
0:54:6.220 --> 0:54:15.870
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Pretty much, and it's an imaginary thing, but you just have to follow those
margins of the eye down and and imagine that those are making our continue.
0:54:15.950 --> 0:54:16.280
Mike Arduser (Guest)
This.
0:54:18.230 --> 0:54:21.610
Maffei, Clare J
So you'd say for this one that we would be like around here.
0:54:22.670 --> 0:54:23.820
Maffei, Clare J
See like here.
0:54:26.610 --> 0:54:27.810
Maffei, Clare J
And there to there.
0:54:24.60 --> 0:54:29.220
Mike Arduser (Guest)
More or less. Yeah. And again, it's a judgment call you this, you know, it's.
0:54:30.330 --> 0:54:30.690
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah.
0:54:32.30 --> 0:54:37.230
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And in this case and David pointed this out, but the the one on the right.
0:54:38.270 --> 0:54:38.920
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Clearly.
0:54:40.900 --> 0:55:9.640
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Longer than the one at least been looking at correctly than the one on the
left, the maller space space is longer and but the the statistic that's always
used is with. Is it half as long? Twice as long as the three. So you've it
tends to be a judgment call to some extent where those lateral margins are and
you just have to kind of feel your way. I mean I don't know how how you handle
that.
0:55:38.370 --> 0:55:38.570
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yep.
0:55:11.240 --> 0:55:41.410
Droege, Sam
It depends on the the group, so like in collides and bombus. It's a
relationship to the width of the mandible and Drina. You know, we're not
talking that great of a range of mallers maller spaces, so largely the mall,
the, the, the mandible edge is just your stop. And we compare it to the rim of
the eye, you know, like how many rim links as.
0:55:41.850 --> 0:55:46.390
Droege, Sam
The you know as the measurement point, rather than the mandible.
0:55:51.450 --> 0:55:56.940
Maffei, Clare J
Katarina says to look at the hinges, you can unmute if you want to expand on
that.
0:56:0.420 --> 0:56:1.550
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The hinges of the mandible.
0:56:2.650 --> 0:56:4.650
Maffei, Clare J
And so like like David's doing here.
0:56:4.700 --> 0:56:5.900
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:56:8.540 --> 0:56:15.70
Droege, Sam
So one a good paper to look at is Joan Milam and and.
0:56:16.190 --> 0:56:27.240
Droege, Sam
Umm, and Johnson's paper on Bumblebee malar length, which came out maybe three
years ago or so, and they they were.
0:56:28.660 --> 0:56:57.450
Droege, Sam
Danny Johnson is the is a an engineer and he has all these super precise tools
and he had to, you know, he was just gonna go there. And so they very carefully
and precisely talked about measurement points and you have actually 2 condyles
on the far side. Those are like the things that curve in and grab into the
structure of the integument. And then you have an offset lump in the middle.
0:56:57.570 --> 0:57:27.840
Droege, Sam
And this gets very confusing because no one tells you these things. That offset
lump is muscle and it's it's pulling on the rim of the mandible to open and
close it. But you know when you're looking at it, it's like, where exactly am I
measuring to the outside of the condyles to the condyles, to the lump, to the
condyle. Anyway, they did a very good job and it turned out once they defined
it precisely and measured it precisely, almost every species of bumblebee.
0:57:27.950 --> 0:57:37.360
Droege, Sam
Was separated table separable by I mean not just like statistically, but
actually by. That ratio was pretty incredible.
0:57:38.480 --> 0:57:42.290
Droege, Sam
So here I think the problem is it's just not that much.
0:57:43.190 --> 0:57:57.40
Droege, Sam
Ohh the the the mallor length is just not that great, so here we're just using.
We use and discover lifeline to be you know widths of the eye rim as something
convenient.
0:58:0.90 --> 0:58:17.370
Maffei, Clare J
So I it in the top right image with the width of the light orange area
considered as the malar space width. Where we going from. I think this is what
you're asking from here all the way over is that your or or does it stop here
where the orange stops? Is that what you're asking?
0:58:27.510 --> 0:58:28.230
Maffei, Clare J
OK here.
0:58:19.80 --> 0:58:29.390
Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest)
Yeah. Claire, I'm. I'm asking about the the where. It's not the lens of the
normaler space, but then between the eye and the mandible there is that. Yeah,
where you're pointing at.
0:58:29.330 --> 0:58:29.650
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Uh.
0:58:30.860 --> 0:58:39.850
Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest)
Because it looks like David's. You know, there's that line above the image says
clockwise increasing manner space, which means this one probably has the.
0:58:40.540 --> 0:58:42.330
Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest)
Shortest mothers face.
0:58:56.100 --> 0:58:56.420
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The.
0:58:43.690 --> 0:58:56.670
Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest)
And they just always confuse me because would that light orange area be
considered in malar space or so all the kind of reddish orange below that
that's not part of the mylar space, is that correct?
0:59:23.530 --> 0:59:24.190
Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest)
Right.
0:59:2.370 --> 0:59:30.20
Droege, Sam
Well, I'll, I'll mention that this from from my point of view, this is a kind.
These are kind of confusing pictures. So the bottom two are clear. That's what
I when I see in malar space, I'm looking at this, the dark I'm pointing but you
can't see it. The dark strip between the eye and the mandible and that's pretty
clear. The upper two are a little fuzzy in terms of I normally don't see.
0:59:30.440 --> 0:59:40.0
Droege, Sam
That configuration, and I'm not sure even like I normally don't see that much
of that amber color that brown amber color.
0:59:45.20 --> 0:59:45.320
Mike Arduser (Guest)
The.
0:59:41.510 --> 1:0:10.810
Droege, Sam
There. So I would have a hard time myself defining and the 1st 2 the mallor
space from the pictures. Now if I had the specimen, I'm gonna be rocking it
back and forth and looking and maybe the first one clockwise. So upper left
corner you don't really see any any black integument. All in other words the
amber just goes right up there and kisses it. So I think that's why it's
considered to be 0. But.
1:0:11.270 --> 1:0:41.20
Droege, Sam
The picture is not what I would have in my mind for that. And then the second
one. So this would be to the left of upper right corner. You can see there is a
little tiny black strip there and the but it is a little tricky to see and the
eye rim is a little obscured. And then the next two it's are very clear to me.
So I can see the irim.
1:0:41.220 --> 1:1:3.850
Droege, Sam
Very clearly, in both and there's. That's my measurement tool and I can see the
maller space very dark and black. Everything's black, clearly. So I'm gonna say
that. Well, that's my interpretation of that string, and I'm having a little
bit of difficulty in the first two in the top row.
1:1:9.200 --> 1:1:9.650
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah.
1:1:4.390 --> 1:1:10.740
Droege, Sam
Umm, but I think if I had it in my hand it would be less less of a problem.
That's the problem with pictures.
1:1:10.480 --> 1:1:13.690
David Cappaert (Guest)
I agree with you, Sam. I I I would mess with those pictures.
1:1:15.50 --> 1:1:15.770
David Cappaert (Guest)
Learning.
1:1:14.690 --> 1:1:16.200
Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest)
Alright, sounds good. Thank you, Sam.
1:1:16.740 --> 1:1:17.10
Droege, Sam
OK.
1:1:18.710 --> 1:1:48.560
Droege, Sam
Yeah, well, you know, here you have three people who have been spending a whole
bunch of time and on andrina and yeah, you know, just showing you that how
subtle these things are. And so, like, if you come to a character like this in
discover life, you would just maybe skip it or you would score it for a number
of things or something. But in a dichotomous key, you know, you have to pay
more close attention or start following multiple lines. So.
1:1:49.10 --> 1:2:19.160
Droege, Sam
It works both ways. Dichotomous keys are simpler in a lot of ways because you
have fewer options. You this is we are guiding you down this path and we have
decided this is your best path and as something like a matrix key like discover
life and others like 8, you figure out the path buddy and you know you wander
off it at your own risk. So you have more chances to mess up in some ways, but
both are difficult.
1:2:19.240 --> 1:2:23.130
Droege, Sam
Or for slightly different reasons. And that's that's why you want both around.
1:2:25.840 --> 1:2:30.390
Mike Arduser (Guest)
And the the last thing I'll say about this key and most keys is that the
numbers in parentheses.
1:2:32.150 --> 1:2:37.180
Mike Arduser (Guest)
So you're a couple at 6 and then in parentheses is couplet is #5.
1:2:37.830 --> 1:2:49.910
Mike Arduser (Guest)
That's the way to tell where you came from. So if you get to a couple at 6 and
they're in parentheses, there's a numeral 5. That means that I came from a
couple of five, and I can back up. So it's a way to backtrack.
1:2:51.590 --> 1:2:52.840
Mike Arduser (Guest)
Sometimes be very helpful.
1:2:51.710 --> 1:3:19.520
Droege, Sam
And this is really yeah, this is really useful when you get way down the key
because Mike is going 12345 knocking out a bunch of things that are pretty
unique. You know that are 1 offs and then later it'll start spreading out and a
lot of times you become more skilled. What you'll do with these keys is go like
I think it's this species and then you find it in the key and then you you.
1:3:19.610 --> 1:3:31.130
Droege, Sam
Work your way backwards and or you're saying it's either this or this. Where
are they sitting in that key and by working backwards you can find the split
between the two.
1:3:32.170 --> 1:3:42.720
Droege, Sam
And very rarely these days, but sadly still occurring. Sometimes they don't
give you that. You know the the the parenthetical.
1:3:44.660 --> 1:3:47.190
Droege, Sam
Backspace number or whatever it's called.
1:3:49.510 --> 1:3:54.320
Maffei, Clare J
I'm going to wrap us up. That was a good like reminder of how I like to work
with keys.
1:3:55.90 --> 1:3:55.890
Maffei, Clare J
Umm.
1:3:57.110 --> 1:3:59.470
Maffei, Clare J
I'm going to send out. Yeah, I have the.
1:3:59.550 --> 1:4:11.590
Maffei, Clare J
So I have the malar space paper. I'll it's it should be already on the
Microsoft team, so if you're not just joining this chat, you're also joined
like you're in the Microsoft team. It's under files and papers.
1:4:12.910 --> 1:4:25.250
Maffei, Clare J
But I'll also send it out in an e-mail response to everyone, and it looks like
we'll pick up here where we left off next week for the next, I think probably
all of 2023 is going to be andrina now.
1:4:25.590 --> 1:4:26.70
Mike Arduser (Guest)
That's it.
1:4:27.250 --> 1:4:28.40
Mike Arduser (Guest)
It could be.
1:4:29.800 --> 1:4:31.0
Maffei, Clare J
You guys asked for it.
1:4:27.600 --> 1:4:35.610
Droege, Sam
Well, well, we could. I think it would be fun to try and get some, get some
Westerners involved in some of these things.
1:4:36.100 --> 1:4:38.130
Droege, Sam
Umm. And I would learn a lot from that.
1:4:39.210 --> 1:4:39.510
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah.
1:4:40.410 --> 1:4:42.340
Mike Slater
Can I make a quick suggestion?
1:4:40.850 --> 1:4:42.700
Droege, Sam
I mean, David, you are a Westerner.
1:4:43.190 --> 1:4:45.30
David Cappaert (Guest)
Yeah, that. Yeah, I for now.
1:4:44.830 --> 1:4:47.280
Maffei, Clare J
Yes, the the one on the screen.
1:4:48.290 --> 1:4:48.990
Maffei, Clare J
And Mike, what's up?
1:5:6.420 --> 1:5:7.20
Maffei, Clare J
Umm.
1:4:50.240 --> 1:5:9.640
Mike Slater
I'm having trouble typing. This keyboard has a lot of sticky keys that I'm
using, so I can't type this comment. But if instead of the two arrows for the
mallards face or the two lines if we had a complete box, the parallelogram
showing all four edges that you're counting, it would be much easier.
1:5:10.940 --> 1:5:13.240
David Cappaert (Guest)
Got it. Yeah, can do.
1:5:12.580 --> 1:5:13.260
Maffei, Clare J
Let's try it.
1:5:14.530 --> 1:5:29.750
Droege, Sam
Is probably worth having a like an entire document of for each of these
characters. Here's a malar space document that here's 5050 different species
Mallard spaces. Here's a you know, corbicula here's a paranodal Ridge thing.
Yeah.
1:5:30.400 --> 1:5:31.150
Droege, Sam
And they looked different.
1:5:45.450 --> 1:5:45.990
Droege, Sam
Mm-hmm.
1:5:30.270 --> 1:5:54.60
David Cappaert (Guest)
Well, and and Sam to follow on what you were saying about the bombing smaller
spaces is every time I look carefully at these things, I believe that any
little piece of a bee would be sufficient to nail it. If you were the true
expert. So getting really into the weeds on any one of these small characters,
it's super useful. So I may do the 50 Mailer space spread.
1:5:53.710 --> 1:5:54.270
Droege, Sam
There you go.
1:5:55.280 --> 1:5:55.720
Maffei, Clare J
Do it.
1:5:55.600 --> 1:5:56.170
David Cappaert (Guest)
We'll see.
1:5:57.970 --> 1:5:59.960
Maffei, Clare J
My last thing before I stopped by recording.
1:6:1.540 --> 1:6:8.960
Maffei, Clare J
So did it wear? What do we did it go? Is this key for males? Wait, hold on.
Where did it go? Is the key for males available?
1:6:10.340 --> 1:6:13.540
Mike Arduser (Guest)
No, because you can't read my sloppy writing. I haven't typed it all in yet.
1:6:14.350 --> 1:6:17.860
Maffei, Clare J
How dare you? You're only doing all of the keys for us.
1:6:18.920 --> 1:6:23.540
Maffei, Clare J
OK. Well, that's it for today's recording. You guys can keep hanging out.
1:6:24.600 --> 1:6:25.350
Maffei, Clare J
Umm.
1:6:26.310 --> 1:6:31.860
Maffei, Clare J
Yeah, and. And we'll pick up after Miserables next time.
1:6:32.300 --> 1:6:32.670
Mike Arduser (Guest)
OK.
1:6:32.740 --> 1:6:33.20
Droege, Sam
Cool.