Learn to ID Bees-20240828_130124-Meeting Recording

August 28, 2024, 5:01PM

1h 0m 37s

Maffei, Clare J started transcription

Droege, Sam 0:04
OK, let me switch and see share.
Screen.
And email and we will go just start at the guide.
So the mail nomada are similar to females.
No surprise there.
They have a couple of features that females don't have.
We'll talk about those, but a lot of the characteristics are going to be the same.
And so we don't need to spend as much time as you can see at the beginning here of the guide.
There are a bunch like in the female, but even more because the males are tend to be less described or less described well and there's huge amounts of variation in the color patterns and some of these groups, these bidentate groups and these white CT species and they just the names went crazy.
So we recommend and you can see they're recommended that you click those recommended buttons because the the validity and the identification and the morphology of these groups of species that are going to disappear are up for grabs. So.
That's for now the some of this will change.
Like Electrola, we probably have some males that that we can add in, but many of these others were still, it's just that the whole system needs to be retooled.
And I think hopefully people are working on that.
I think Catherine is working on it, so.
Carrying on what we'll see is that males have similar characteristics to females, but often a a lighter version.
In other words, it's similar to the females.
You would recognize some of the characteristics, but they're not quite as strong.
Females are thinner.
Are the males are thinner, the CT for example on the legs are not quite as robust, sometimes difficult to see, which you know is not helpful.
We'll take a look at several species, but the patterns are about the same, so we'll go right to some of the things that are very different.
So one of them is that instead of having a pseudo pygidial area, so there's nothing like the pseudopodia area at all on males, but they do have a pygidium cash.
Would that be T7 on the mails?
I'm not sure what the the segment actually is, but it's always there.
It's always prominent and we basically have two states which we can easily show you notched and rounded or flat and we'll just pop over to.
A visual here on the microscope.
This is nomada sulfur orada.
That group is characterized by strapy butts and being relatively robust, and this is the state of the pygidium that you find in more or most of the uh nomada.
So most of the Nevada males have a notched apidium why is it not?
I don't really know.
And we're gonna swap this one out and then we need.
Not really.
Cover this any further because not a very nuanced character and I'm going to set this aside somewhere about on that and we'll come back to it and we're gonna look at Nevada antholis.
So that group, which as so things with rounded, I believe I've have not made a study of this things with rounded pygidium MMS form a clade which may or may not be some kind of of subgenus.
I'm once all that is resolved, so it's still a lot of that like we talked about before, there have been a variety of names given to subgenera within nomada a lot of times they make some sense and then but people argue over them.
So it's not a well defined thing, so this half fabulous.
This is probably, I think it's pretty much known to be a specialist, not on andrina, which the bulk of namada or host or parasitizing, but a parasite on userra and perhaps other user rhymes.
Anyway, there it is.
Round it out.
Not a difficult to determine characteristic when you look at a bunch of these, there are differences in the size, shape a bit, but it is rarely used.
I don't think we use it at all in terms of differentiating at the species level, anything other than it's easy.
It notched or is it not notched because there are other characteristics that are so parallel to it, like color and presence of hairs and raised areas that using the.
Ohh Belgium has not been a priority for determining different species.
If we go back now to sulfur Arada and take the label off here, we can look at, umm the CT again because the CT are the key.
Let me just make sure I have this lined up.
The key for good identification and being when you have a whole series of them looking at the CT of the.
Specimens you have and comparing them helps you at least group them together because there are patterns there.
We've outlined in the guide some patterns like thick or thin, long or short.
Visual This is why having long strings of specimens is useful, because then you can see the pattern without having to describe them in detail to someone who has never seen one before, which is the always a problem of guides.
All right, let's see if we can see the CT on here.
So like I mentioned there.
Essentially, always present and they are always reflective of the female state.
What the CT exactly?
Are used for is a little bit unclear.
It may have something to do with nest invasions and.
That sort of thing.
But they have them.
It's they're pretty variable.
I've have I cranked up to the absolute.
Top.
And so slightly difficult to see here, but I believe that's the.
So when we talk about the characteristics, so we're looking at the for those of you who missed the previous sessions, we're looking at the apical end of the hind tibia.
This is the.
Uh basitar.
See down here.
Going down further and usually the side facing to the exterior has a straight area.
Let's call it if things are curving around and up, I usually there's a straight area, and usually there's an area that has a projection.
We're gonna shift this around so we can see this better.
A A projecting triangular point.
Very blunt, very much, not a spine or AC T, but almost always there to help define the locations of things.
And then usually start not always starting on the other end of this straight line.
This other end of the segment that's again facing out RCT and often you have the biggest CT and the furthest end and then they taper off again, not always in there could be a lot, there can be a few in this one you can go one more notch.
So this is the problem right?
If you just look at that in a glance, it's just sort of a murky, murky mess.
There's long light hairs and this again, what happened?
Quite regularly, there's long white hairs, but if you look closely and this may not be the best, umm shot and visual, there are a series of short, stout CT coming up out here which are gonna help in the identification of this new model Silverado for example.
Now, often when I'm looking at things under the scope, what I'm gonna do is not take this view where the background is a little bit busy with this basic tarsal part of the segment.
I'm going to twist the specimen again.
I'm gonna try and do this so that I'm looking in this direction.
OK, I'm looking this way and I'm looking from what amounts to be the underside of this segment into space and I'll often hold my finger under there so that what I get is the stouter, shorter segments of the actual CT show up a lot easier.
Umm, in that kind of light as outlines then and this one where there's a lot of competing textures from the long white hairs, long white hairs are almost always present.
And when you are working with the mails, the CT that again are a reflection of what's going on in the females, unlike the females, often don't.
Ah, don't extend beyond the white hair.
So again, they're hiding down here.
You have to find them.
Let's see if we can shift this view a couple different ways.
So here we are, way backed off, right?
So we're looking at this outer face of the hind tibia, apical end.
There's the tibial spurs, which I can't think of any particular species where the tibial spurs are useful at all, so that would also point out maybe we should look at them because maybe they are useful and we're just not paying attention.
Alright, now I'm gonna try the tricky process of coming up with a different upside down view that will.
Highlight the CT.
Better.
Ohh, my God.
Alright, maybe something like that.
I'm looking at my other microscope trying to line this up and literally the specimen is now upside down.
As you can see here and.
If we're lucky, it's possible that that the pen itself may be in the way.
Maybe.
Maybe not quite.
We're looking at the Heinz CT at.
I like the area out here because there's nothing behind it and that's the view I want to have if I can.
So a lot of times the legs are akimbo and you may not be able to see them in this light because they're up against the.
The.
Really trying to say up against the body of the specimen, so there's always a little bit of a problem.
So this is pretty good.
OK, it's imperfect.
Here's the tibial spur.
This is the area of the face that we're trying to take a view of any higher and you can, I think get the point.
This is why holding these things in your hand and being able to swivel them back and forth is so highly useful among many other kinds of characteristics that are not necessarily it's going to be initially visible.
So here I think you can see the dark Sea T Now are outlined against the lighter background and my finger substitutes for that.
I usually have a black.
What do we call it?
Disk that forms the base of the microscope.
What would that be?
Microscope base.
So if I wanna see this pop a little bit, I need a lighter surface.
My finger often becomes that.
Thing.
So if you see 123, maybe four, possibly 5, this would be a lot clearer under the microscope, cause the resolution through the video is not so great, but you can see this is what I'm often doing is I'm flipping the specimen over and looking along this edge rather than trying to look at it from this.
This point of view from straight into the side to try and make some decisions about whether the.
Number of CT and the kinds of CT are present so you can see again that that view there maybe on each of the specimens we show, we'll try and do a CT view because it is really in some cases the best of the characteristics.
Now that we're on Nomada sofa, Arata straight **** things, which they show up pretty regularly, so ferrata traditionally is not a super common one, but when people do bowl trapping, and particularly in Woodlands, they show up reasonably regularly, they're gonna fall into that category of four common ash species.
It's a terrible.
So not illustrate what I want it to illustrate.
Not they fall into a category of four common species, which would be sulphur, rod and luteola, so they are separated by their antennae, so they all have big striped butts, right?
So we can say, oh, they're big and they're big broad stripes of yellow across there abdomen segments.
So that's good.
And then the next thing to look for this key, you have followed the keys here and this is useful in general.
Umm, within the Numata group, it are antennal segment ratios.
Again, wouldn't it be interesting to know why the antennal segment ratios vary so much?
Another point here, particularly in the mails.
Here's the scape.
This is the thing that joins it to the head that seems to have no name commonly used.
Nor is it used very much, so there's escape.
But where is the pedestal?
Is that the pedestal?
No, it is not.
The pedestal is recessed into the must go to the other one into the top.
That's the pedestal.
Just peeking out into the top of the scape, so sometimes a quick glance can be a little confusing in terms of antennal segment counting because of the nature of the pedestal being recessed and captured by the escape.
These are pretty broad, usually base like structures.
The scapes in any case, so this is F1.
So the first flagellar segment and this is F2 and you can see in this view that there's quite a big difference in the ratio.
So this is much shorter.
This is much longer and this is something that you almost always will look at when you're trying to identify females too.
Males and female nomada, which is what does that ratio of F1F2 or sometimes F2 to F3 in this case.
This is quite a bit different and when we go to the other stripe but nomada you'll see that they have less of a large ratio between the two.
Large difference between the two.
This F1 segment is relatively longer so and also this this very dark there are very dark antennae which tends to be a characteristics of self, arata and luteola.
And there's other species specific kinds of things for Silverado and luteola telling them apart that have to do with patterns of coloration, which is pretty stable.
However, they both are relatively uncommon compared to the very common imbricata and lutia aloides group, which will jump to here to talk a little bit about their differences.
Because they just come up over and over again and there has been some work that you're not gonna find in Mitchell.
And I'm not even sure how Mitchell uses to characterize the differences there.
But let me pull a.
I'll probably I'll pull an imbricata probably.
Yeah, here we go.
I have one staged up.
So stripes on the rear, large size.
Which it into the camp that we're looking at, we're now going to pop it onto the screen and look at might have the view done well enough.
I'm gonna look at the antenna ratios here so slightly different viewpoint so we can see the pedestal.
Hiding a a little bit better so we see more of a view like ohh, there's the pedestal.
It is stuck back down here, but there's F1.
Here's F2.
You can see pretty clearly that the F1 is much larger in comparison to F2 than we saw in Sulfurated, which was quite dramatically different.
So we quantify that in the guide, but that that separates out the two embrujado luyties from the other.
So Imbricata and Luyties in the females have some nice characteristics with the propositum, but the the males don't.
And so you go on a couple additional things.
So one is the antenna.
This was something that Dina crumbling discovered a number of years ago now.
And let's see if I would probably need to bend it over a little bit more.
So you gonna look at the scape and you're gonna look at the backside of the scape.
So this if this if the antenna are completely flattened to the back of the head, this is difficult to see, but most of the time they're up.
So in other words, if the if the SCAPE was lying against the head, which sometimes it is but you have to usually not, sometimes you can tickle it up if you're not and what you see in imbricata.
So there's this notch right here in the back I assume, although I haven't made a study of it, that that notch is present in a lot of the nomada and below that notch is a stripe of light colored integument.
In contrast to the surrounding dark areas, so on the underside of the underside of the scape and the undersides of antenna it's often dark colored and many of the model species, and really in bees in general, because it's sort of like contrasting coloration.
So the the darker that the top is lighter and the the bottom is darker, presumably to better camouflage, the critter against the background it's sitting on on, it's hard to see this one.
I think it's it's twisted to the side.
That's the lighter stripe is over on that side in this particular one.
So that species has this light stripe, Luis does not.
It's all dark, so it's a uniform thing.
The other aspect here and this was Max Schwartz, figured this one out.
As you go to the middle leg and maybe we'll look at this one at because little **** the right way and on the ventral side.
So if the legs are actually walking around, this would be the side that's pointing down.
There's very little hair, right?
So it's basically.
Let's see if it's on this slide too.
It's this might be the upper side perhaps.
But maybe not.
It's hard to tell a little bit, so, but what you're looking for is on the ventral the lower side like this would be the lower side on the hind legs though, not something we're looking at.
There's almost no hair, so there are almost always a little bit of hair.
Little hairs, but it's not noticeable and it's very short.
It's certainly nowhere near the width of the the segment, and in Lutia Lloyd's there's quite a bit more hair and it's it creates a this long enough to be creative.
Fringe, I'd say.
I don't know if we quantify it, but we're talking about hairs that are somewhere between 1/4 and a third.
The width of the segment as another characteristic.
Otherwise, the species itself varies north to South, sometimes in terms of the amount of yellow or lightness in there.
So those two characters are gonna be a big help in telling things apart.
OK, let's take a look at this particular specimens CT we have this angle on deck, so we always go to the hind tibia.
We're going to go to the anterior edge, the outer facing part.
And let's zoom in.
If you recall these two species.
Began similar in the female as they were in the male had.
CT.
That so here's the I believe this is gonna get any.
There we go.
This is the triangular projection.
That sort of is placed on one corner of the outer face and the other side would have CT, which we can't see very well because we are in line with all the white hairs and whatever CT might be hiding in there.
Again, it's gonna be lower.
Shorter than the hairs on the segment aren't super visible, so let's see if we can make that visible.
So zoom back down.
I'm going to twist this and this direction.
They're going to be useful.
Umm, I'm going to twist the whole specimen instead.
And even get tiny, you know, snap its head off.
Maybe a tiny bit more.
OK, so now we're looking more directly on the flat on that segment.
As I mentioned before, this is not necessarily my favorite view, but let's just see what we can see here from this view, because that's where most people would come into the game.
Here is they would.
Look at it from this sort of direction.
Here's the exterior face.
There's the notch over here would be CT and you know it's basically impossible to tell what's going on down there.
Yeah, it looks like there might be a couple.
Often the CTR reddish in color, not always in different pieces.
Different things are going on and I, you know, I can't really see.
So we're gonna now go ahead because this is really important and flip this specimen over.
See if I can see it with my other scope.
First get a good view so we don't have to spend all day looking at kind of line up the.
View on this. It's pretty good and actually it's not.
Necessarily the.
Exact view I would use but it because the CT are a little bit darker it shows up.
Well, so now I've flipped it upside down, going back here and we're going to zoom in again and are inverted.
And look, there is CT visible to us.
When and there's maybe three in there and do we have it all the way up?
Yep.
And so when looking at this though, so they are redder, they are thicker.
So here's the hairs.
So they stand out.
There's the CT1 thing to notice is they're really not lying over like they do in the females.
The females are approximately the same dimensionality, but they they curve over and lay down all along the rim very noticeably, and these are mostly straight, so we could change the view one more time so that I'm actually going to be looking upside down in this direction to see.
But I can see it right here.
So we're not going to dally any more on looking at those CT.
OK, so let's look at its counterpart.
Which?
His lutia aloides.
Yeah, there we go.
Spend a little more time on these because they are just so common in the east.
I think throughout the East.
And you line things up here, and we're gonna look at two things.
First, we're gonna look at the antenna escapes.
And what we're looking for is just a completely dark scape underneath and without any stripe in it.
And there we go.
A very dark escape their in terms of orientation is that notch again, but it's pretty obvious what the underside is in both these things the top sides have are as they would say maculated, so they have yellow and white and that kind of coloration going on so.
Now what we want to do is look at the legs here and what we're looking for is what we mentioned last time, which is on the middle eggs, so not on the hind legs.
Moving away from that, but I think this is gonna be my best shot like this.
And hopefully it shows up pretty well.
It's gonna be viewed against the body, so the outline of the hairs is not going to be visible and I think it will be obvious enough.
So what we're looking at here is, uh, front legs, middle, legs cocked backwards and then the hind legs are back here but not visible.
So we're gonna jump in and we're looking at because of the way it's bent backwards.
This is the ventral face, the downward facing face, and you can see indeed there are a bunch of hairs, not tons.
They're not, you know, the Super duper long.
You know, maybe 1/4 to 1/3 at most.
The this is a little bit hard angle here of the thing, but present nonetheless.
So those are the two things I look for when I'm trying to separate out the imbricata from Luigi's.
There's not really even a vibe that differs the two, or at least not one that I've come up with.
So sometimes you can when you're working with a group that's common and you see all the time, you don't have to look at the characters, you can just tell because the look and feel is distinct enough.
Ohh, let's uh, let's take a look.
And see if we can find the CT on this to have our CT practice.
Going on.
And you're gonna try.
And yeah, I'll jump right to the upside down view on this, right.
OK.
Got a good angle on this?
These are essentially going to be the same between the two species a short number, a few a small number of big city hiding amidst the hairs.
Of the rear tibia.
You might even be able to spot them from here.
Light is a little low.
Might bounce that up.
Uh, But I'll bounce up the light.
But you can see there's a CT right there.
I'm looking from underneath.
I can't tell, but I believe this is where the triangular projection is.
This is the exterior face.
There's some CT in there.
I'm gonna put some more light on this, which means I have to.
Move to a different section.
And we will change this to about 300.
Ooh, nice and now.
OK.
So we look here.
This triangular projection at the corner is we're looking right down the thin side of it, so it doesn't really show well, but the CT show well.
So as I mentioned, they're usually below the level of the white hair.
So you can kind of barely see the white hairs that are here and then you can see maybe three of the ACT sticking out.
Even though this is a big species and I have it on full magnification, we're still talking very small features, so having a microscope, a good, a good BID microscope, which this one isn't quite up to that level, it's getting.
This goes A50 power, but 60 power is a good one.
You get higher than that and it becomes sort of unmanageable.
To hold it I specimen under the microscope and sea.
Anything without a lot of shake going on from your hands or just your heartbeat.
And when we're looking at the CT, umm, uh, you often have to be at these higher magnifications.
And someone's calling.
I'm going to ignore them, but you will hear them.
OK, so I'm gonna move.
This and.
Because there's not a whole lot that else that differs that I have.
We're gonna go to the last feature that males have that females don't have, which is some extra architecture in the.
Antennae.
Listen, forgetting something?
But I don't think so.
It was really like the underside the the like if you were in the the EPO, try EPS groups.
The underside of the males are crazy with all kinds of features, as are several other kinds of species.
These are not.
They're very uniformly built.
They don't seem to have CT.
They don't seem to have a lot of other hairs that vary from species to species like this is utilities and I have a fear.
A group of species.
Articulata again, there's a group that are defined by the presence of these modified umm and tanning.
So what we're going to see in this species and this similar is that the and Tenny best viewed from underneath.
What did I do here?

Maffei, Clare J 35:06
Yeah, I'm going to interrupt your real quick.

Droege, Sam 35:07
It's yeah, sure.

Maffei, Clare J 35:09
So I'm on discover life looking at, you know, we were in the imbricata group.

Droege, Sam 35:13
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 35:16
But you also have a couplet here that has.
A embarcadero luteola luteolin Luteolin Socrata, but also for jariah to before moving on to a different group.

Droege, Sam 35:23
Yeah.
Ohh fragaria yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 35:30
Do we wanna close out this group?
Because you also didn't really continue very far with this Sir.
Self errata.
Umm. Distinction.

Droege, Sam 35:36
Uh-huh.

Maffei, Clare J 35:38
So if we're jumping ahead, want to know if we are gonna close out that group?

Droege, Sam 35:41
Yeah, I I I'm so I don't have any frigeri on on hand, but the the interesting thing, I don't know if this is true for the males.
The female.
That's a really interesting species, and the nail did we do?
I wonder if Molly and I.
Yeah.
Molly and I described the mail, which was undescribed.
Or was it the female female?
The female has no hairs on the podium, one of only two species that is hairless there and then the male has this really interesting thing which I think may be the only species that has that, but I don't.
I don't have the specimen the so it had.
It's bigger, has stripes on the ****, so it often falls into this cluster.
That's why it's there.
The very tips of the antennae, so that would be F-10.
Now it's literally the end of the antennae.
There are some small city that are prominently sticking out of the end and they're small, but they're noticeable because you can see them by their outline very easily and the other species don't have anything at all like that.
They're basically.
Smooth or the CT as it meant there there are minutes CT on lots and lots of body parts of of the of nomada and other that bees too.
But on the antennae they tend to be there tends to be nothing, or very very, very short.
So short that it's like submicroscopic.
If that's a term and on forgery, you can see those, I think we have that illustrated because we took pictures for the paper, yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 37:27
I was just gonna say that it's gonna post this species link.
We do a picture of them discover life.

Droege, Sam 37:33
OK.
Yep, so it's an uncommon species, but it's around.
I think we have, we do have a number of species in Maryland.
Found I see them every once in a while and people's collections, but seems to be more out in high quality natural areas.
Have no idea what it's hosts are.
Umm, so, uh, does that answer your question?
So I wasn't going into a lot of detail.
First of all, again most of my collection is at the Smithsonian right now, so I don't have.
I can't pull out Lucio Luteola mails for example only these two, so I just am tossing off the luteal aloides versus imbricata because they're common and because I have a bunch of specimens on hand.
That sounds good.

Maffei, Clare J 38:21
Get me so moving on to a different group group.
Just wanted to make sure that was the intention.

Droege, Sam 38:24
Yeah, OK.
Yep.
Yeah, I'm glad to answer questions about any of the details of any of these species because I have spent a lot of time with them.
So this thing that we're gonna see now, Articulata australis, this Ridge Aronis and Senecio filla are in this group often.
Umm given so again what what is a subgenus and what isn't indomada unclear to me but they are often were clustered together and something that could have been called a.
Subgenus sometimes a ridgerunner eye.
OK.
We're in very much highlight, but this might be useful when we zoom up.
Let's see what happens.
Alright, so there are a number of things about this group's antennae that are just really different. So.

Maffei, Clare J 39:27
So you have Australia, Australia, some deck.

Droege, Sam 39:30
I have articulate which is the most common species in most places, so the I think this is good and so in most bees and in most nomada the antenna flagellar segments are basically just tubes, right?

Maffei, Clare J 39:34
Thanks.

Droege, Sam 39:50
There's not a lot of architecture to these that are all pretty similar, and often as you get you go through, you have some regular progression in terms of their lengths and whatnot, but not in this group.
Yeah.
And and we also see that sometimes in other generals, so psycodes, sometimes the males it's I think always the males the males have excavated out undersides.
This is also true in some osmia and I'm I'm sure there's a few others, but at hand you have a species here and the others are similar where you have different ratios of segment lengths, and you have oddly partially flattened underside.
So there's this sculpturing.
It's a little bit difficult to describe what it is, but they aren't.
Definitely not tubes.
They're sort of in some ways, hollowed out, flattened the the dark, as in most species of bees, indicates the that it's the underside, and then in I think this is segment 3, that should be 123 is a a little tiny point, a little tiny projection.
This I think there might be some more technical term there and I can't get any higher than that, but you can see the little bitty spine point, whatever you wanna call it.
Umm.
Existing there and that's on all of them have that have no idea why and what that functions has, but their presence is quite a bit different, articulata and.
Umm, Australians are pretty difficult to tell apart in the mails.
The configuration of the the you know colors and patterns and pitting elsewhere seems to be pretty similar or variable enough that you can't.
There's overlap between those, but in the and Tenny what you're looking for, particularly in these upper segments which are now not in view, I'm trying to make them in view.
So in articulata these are very jagged, so these are rounded.
Here you can see these rounded edges when you look at it laterally.
Let's we're doing right now.
You'll see that there's quite jagged umm edges.
I wish I had a specimen to show you umm to the upper segments, the ones above F3.
So there's F3 with the spike and then you can see this jaggedness to the rim or the edge if you will of the slightly flattened segments.
You can see these appear to be flattened and they are too, but they're more rounded over.
So again, it's a little bit subtle, but a useful character, so that additionally, when we have the.
Umm, any specimen.
I'm going to change the light.
Any specimen that has that flattened weird spike to the underside is gonna be within a small number of species.
Why is this not going back to?
There we go.
Just gonna drop the light.
So we can see a portrait of this species.
So the females are completely red, so the abdomen is completely red.
There's no yellow dots, yellow manipulations or stripes on it at all, but the males are quite different looking.
But Rubicund is, I think is another Member of this group.
He seemed specialist, probably Ega potzmann species, as is this one.
So like like focus. OK.
Yeah, I'm going to go to 90.
There we go.
And so you can see, as I magnify this a little bit more.
That and this is the articulata and australis look about the same, but even up here you can see that something's going on with that antenna.
Even from this relatively low magnification, and there's a lot of striped partial stripes and things like that on the heavily pitted also.
Tergites so very different from the females.
That's only within that articulata and what Stralis group, which have solid red, the others have yellow, even in the females.
Just to mix it up.
OK, let's take a look.
We're here.
Let's take a look at the CT on this bad boy.
We've got the hind tibia and view right here.
Here's the outer face.
Nothing much to go on there.
In who?
Females and articulata.
The CT's gonna have to bump up the magnification.
The light again, the CTR below the level of the white hair is in the female.
In Australia, they're above their bright red and there's maybe five or six.
Let's see.
Let's take this back to.
The light level that we were working with before, maybe 300, maybe not that much.
Which go to to.
OK.
So many little buttons to push on this program.
Why is that not working?
Though because as pressing Fe instead of F.
OK, so at this light level, we can see the triangular point on the one corner, right?
So there's that triangle projection that gives us some orientations.
So theoretically, over on this side, we would see a series of CT.
I don't see them, but let's see what happens when we turn it upside down.
And hey, hey, I'm actually online, but I'll be done in a hot second.
Berry, it's our monarch.
Queen has arrived.
Umm, so I turn it upside down.
I can see.
Maybe umm, very very short CT.
So they were.
They were short in the females, so as males go, I'm gonna attempt to put this on to the screen, but I'm not sure.
How?
Well, that's going to show up.
And so very small.
But see what happens.
And then that will be basically what I have for males to talk about.
Take the medication down.
Find specimen.
It's upside down now.
I'm gonna go for this back leg.
And see I can barely see it under the microscope, so I'm not sure what's gonna show up here.
The answer is not a heck of a lot.
Uh, you can kind of see a few of the ACT here, but.
Even when I'm looking under my microscope and can move it around, these were very difficult to spot, so it's not the key aspect.
The antenna that antenna is really gonna tell you what this is, but we're just looking at CT because everywhere else you'll look at it.
So you can kind of make out 123 maybe 4C T and there here's a triangle and then they're running out of the white hairs.
So that pretty much does it for a intro.

Maffei, Clare J 48:43
I.

Droege, Sam 48:45
Yeah, go ahead.

Maffei, Clare J 48:46
I mean, they have the two things, so I posted in the chat for that antennal segment thing we couldn't couldn't see that you were just describing.
We do have pictures of both of those in our like super High res macro thing and you can pretty easily zoom in from on on a couple of them to see that.

Droege, Sam 48:56
Uh-huh.

Maffei, Clare J 49:08
So I did ask if Sally might add those to the key, but if not you can go on species pages and we have good pictures.
Umm, if you go directly to their to their species page and if Catherine wants to unmute, she has some additional insights.

Droege, Sam 49:28
Good, Catherine.
Good to hear from you.
I know you've been busily working on nomada up in York University.
So tell us, and we'd love to have you on for a full session too.

Katherine Odanaka 49:52
Yeah. Hi.

Droege, Sam 49:55
Deep.

Katherine Odanaka 49:55
So I was just saying cause part of my dissertation.
I took pictures of all the males for the eastern Air Drones group, so there's five species all of their antennae except for aerodromes and articulata, are unique, so they all have different bumps under me.

Droege, Sam 50:05
Uh-huh.
Yeah.

Katherine Odanaka 50:15
Uh, so I think articulata and air drones.
Males both have only the single one under antennal segment 3, whereas everyone else kind of has different numbers.
I think the most was for.
Rubic Conda, where every single segment had bumps.
Umm yeah.

Droege, Sam 50:37
Uh-huh.

Katherine Odanaka 50:39
I'll have to send pictures.
They're in my dissertation.
Which should be released I think in November.
So there's a a couple of keys in there if you wanna update, I guess discover life with them.

Droege, Sam 50:51
That would be great.
We would love to have those shots and any other habitus pictures, and we'll, you know, you can, and this is for anybody, anyone who has good pictures and they would like to share, we'll put them up here and we'll have your name as credits and things too.

Katherine Odanaka 50:55
Yeah.
Oh yeah.

Droege, Sam 51:11
But I I will point out that I think, yeah, you're absolutely right about the articulata and australias having only that one single, umm, a point that CT or whatever your whatever you wanna call it.
But the the edges of the antennae which are not CT can be like this.

Katherine Odanaka 51:29
Yes.

Droege, Sam 51:32
The only thing I found that will help discriminate between those two.

Katherine Odanaka 51:37
Yes.

Droege, Sam 51:37
A little tricky, jobbers.

Katherine Odanaka 51:40
Umm for female articulata and australis, we found a new character.
If it's helpful, it's seems that Australis has a wider head head.

Droege, Sam 51:47
Huh.
OK.

Katherine Odanaka 51:53
It's one of the new characters that we've added so they're more rectangular looking.
Umm.

Droege, Sam 51:59
Uh-huh.

Katherine Odanaka 52:00
Whereas Australis is more square.
Or sorry, articulate is more square.
Australis is more rectangular.
I'll see if I can send you photos of that.

Droege, Sam 52:07
Well, yeah.

Katherine Odanaka 52:09
What the comparison?

Droege, Sam 52:11
Yeah, yeah.
Do you?
Do you wanna do a full session with some of these things that you've learned that are not in the common parlance of nomada?

Katherine Odanaka 52:19
No.

Droege, Sam 52:25
You know, you know that aren't online anywhere, and that kind of thing, I think you probably have insights that no one else does.

Katherine Odanaka 52:33
Sure.
Whenever you guys want me to host it, I could probably do it, although next week I'll be at Rutgers helping them with their no model, but after next week I should be free, yeah.

Droege, Sam 52:42
OK. Yeah.
OK. Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 52:48
I'll get you on the calendar.
I'll send you an email.

Droege, Sam 52:49
Alright.
Yeah, that would be lovely.

Maffei, Clare J 52:54
That's very nice.
And Catherine, would you mind repeating for us the five species that you are saying are in that group?

Katherine Odanaka 52:57
No.
Yep.
Yeah, I was just.
I just got my dissertation delivered to me, so I'm gonna pull them out for you.
So, umm, I'll do you want me to just say them or do you want me to type them?

Droege, Sam 53:13
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 53:15
Umm, you can say them and I'll try to put them in the chat.

Droege, Sam 53:15
You can.

Katherine Odanaka 53:17
Well, OK.
So the five species that are most are that are found in the east.
So for everyone, mostly here you have Senecio Fila, which that's the one that has all of the points on the sides like Sam was talking about.
You have rubicund a air jeronimus articulata and australis. Umm.

Droege, Sam 53:43
If only all the nomada were so easy to separate.

Katherine Odanaka 53:43
Yeah.
I know, and unfortunately I ran out of time for my dissertation, so unfortunately roof and cornice group is not addressed.
But I'm working on it so I do have lots of tips, but it won't be out until later and we have some concerns.

Droege, Sam 53:56
Yep.
Yeah.
Well, you know, you know our struggles with that group.
So I'm I am not at all surprised that you ran out of time because you've been working for a long time, so congratulations for getting to the end.

Katherine Odanaka 54:05
Ohh yeah.

Droege, Sam 54:17
The end and getting a dissertation out of it.

Katherine Odanaka 54:21
Thanks it.
It's interesting because today you guys were talking about soul Ferrata, Luteola, Lydia ladies, and uh imbricata.
So this is not published yet, but it seems that sulfur rata invercote no Silverado Luteola and the other one that fragaria they actually make their own played in the phylogenetic tree.

Droege, Sam 54:31
Umm.
Yeah.
Hmm.

Katherine Odanaka 54:47
So they're no longer.
I don't consider them part with Imbricata and luyties.
I think they're actually part of what used to be called.
Nomada, then Villa?
Or something.
Something with yellow?

Droege, Sam 55:05
OK.

Katherine Odanaka 55:06
Yeah, xanterra group.
So that was grouped in with what we call Hemming tomato, which is what Imbricata and Lydia ladies are right now.

Droege, Sam 55:09
Right.

Katherine Odanaka 55:18
So I think with our follow up that I'm working on, they'll be separated back into their own group within group of coordinates, yeah.

Droege, Sam 55:18
Yep.
Yeah.
Let me ask you this.
You know, Max Schwartz identified and described a species which he called, I believe, nomada mitchner I, which would have fallen into that group.

Katherine Odanaka 55:36
Yes.

Droege, Sam 55:39
I so a long time ago I got in contact to try and get the type from Max and he they had some stuff going on and we never we never did that.

Katherine Odanaka 55:47
Uh.

Droege, Sam 55:49
But I have yet to identify anything to that species.
Have you got any clarification on it?

Katherine Odanaka 55:56
I only saw.
I only saw a single specimen at the Smithsonian, and I have yet to find anything else.
I wonder if it is just some errant be that maybe is found in Mexico or it's actually something else, but I haven't.

Droege, Sam 56:12
He.

Katherine Odanaka 56:15
I haven't seen anything anything else. Uh.

Droege, Sam 56:17
Right.
Yeah, I think it was.
I think he described it from eastern species of if I remember right, not a Mexican from maybe the Smokies or something. Pardon.

Katherine Odanaka 56:22
Yes.
I think it came from Georgia.
Yeah, I think might have come from Georgia or somewhere in the southeast. Uh.

Droege, Sam 56:31
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's right.
Anyway, I haven't.

Katherine Odanaka 56:36
Because.

Droege, Sam 56:36
I've struggled trying to like figure that one out and I have yet to do that.
I mean Max is from Germany, so it's possible he just didn't have a very broad spectrum of the other species material.

Katherine Odanaka 56:44
Right.

Droege, Sam 56:50
I don't know, but he's.
I mean, he's very particular and good workers, so I don't know.

Katherine Odanaka 56:55
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 56:56
I don't know what to think.

Katherine Odanaka 56:58
The other species that I'm looking for, if anyone who's part of this call, is from the Southeast.
I am trying to find crew delis.
It hasn't been seen since the 1800s and is only known from the type specimen, but we believe it was part of the longleaf Pine Savannah ecosystem and currently I have some collaborators in Georgia who are working in it and they they haven't found it, but I was hoping that maybe there's a a remnant population, but it seems unlikely and it might be actually extinct.

Droege, Sam 57:17
Umm.
Mm-hmm.

Katherine Odanaka 57:32
It's in Mitchell and it's actually the bee that's my photo.

Droege, Sam 57:33
Yeah.

Katherine Odanaka 57:38
But I have yet to to see a different specimen besides the type, yeah.

Droege, Sam 57:43
Yeah.
Yeah, that's one of the several that I put into the magical mysteries things.

Katherine Odanaka 57:52
Yes, yes.
If only if only we could find it other than the type which I have not so great photos of no.

Droege, Sam 57:57
You know.
RIP.
Yeah, I think most of these things are probably around somewhere is my impression.
But you know, still you have to find them.
And that means boots on the ground and maybe in these obscure plant communities.
So don't give up hope.

Katherine Odanaka 58:18
Yeah, I know.
Someone on, I don't know.
Maybe it was one of your comments on either Discover Life or maybe bug guide.

Droege, Sam 58:24
Umm.

Katherine Odanaka 58:27
Someone said they think they know what the host is or the record of the host.
And there's populations of the host in Virginia, but.
No one has seen the nomada on it, so it's hard to know.

Droege, Sam 58:41
Well, I don't if there's only one specimen.

Katherine Odanaka 58:45
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 58:45
I don't know how they would figure out what the host was.

Katherine Odanaka 58:49
Yeah, I'll have to go find that record.
Uh, But yeah, if anyone finds it, I will love you forever.

Droege, Sam 58:58
Right.
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 59:01
You got some takers in the chat for hunting to my own.

Katherine Odanaka 59:01
Yeah, let me know.
Ohh yeah sweet.
Thank you, Amanda.
Hopefully you might be able to find it.
Umm but yeah, let me know when I can help you guys with a just like shortcuts, things that I've learned, especially for bite antes.

Droege, Sam 59:17
Yep.

Katherine Odanaka 59:19
Cuz I got pretty good at those.

Droege, Sam 59:23
Yeah, I I struggle with those, but we'll save that conversation so.

Katherine Odanaka 59:23
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 59:30
Uh, so did you cover the bidentate or did you not cover them? Yeah.

Katherine Odanaka 59:34
No, we actually we found the arrange expansion of 1 so they didn't get, they didn't get covered, but we did find some interesting things.

Droege, Sam 59:42
OK.

Katherine Odanaka 59:47
It seems that maybe possibly the European, by dente to the North American by Dentes are actually two different lines within roof of cornas, which is really interesting.

Droege, Sam 59:55
Umm.
Yeah, yeah.

Katherine Odanaka 1:00:00
Uh.
So yeah, I'm working.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:04
I mean interrupt here for justice.

Droege, Sam 1:00:04
OK.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:05
Second, I'm I'm going to email you, Katherine, about maybe we do a couple of sessions with your clearly robust wisdom.

Katherine Odanaka 1:00:07
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:16
Umm, so I guess that I'm gonna send you email lookout for that and I'm just letting you all know I am stopping the recording cause at school year time again.
I gotta run real quick, but I won't close the room.

Droege, Sam 1:00:25
OK.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:25
So you can keep it going.
I'm just stopping the recording.
Yay, thank you everybody.

Katherine Odanaka 1:00:28
Cool.
Thank you.

Droege, Sam 1:00:30
Thanks.
Thanks Claire.

Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription