Learn to ID Bees-20240724_130547-Meeting Recording

July 24, 2024, 5:05PM

1h 1m 54s

Maffei, Clare J started transcription

Maffei, Clare J 0:03
Umm.
And I'm sure you all got the email, but for the purposes of the recording, just be aware we have some new resources.
Thank you, Sally.
On discover life, we are prioritizing them on the endrina page for obvious reasons of where we're working right now in the class.
So check those out.
It's the first two characters of the page that will direct you to the resources that I described that, umm, we've created the A Discover a Google Drive account for.
Resources which I think will probably be easier for folks to access than the Microsoft team, particularly when we post new guides and other things that will be on there.
And then also the links to David Kappert's guide to the andrina characters and glossary, which I am referring to regularly so thoroughly encourage you to check those out.
Umm.
So yeah, I think we'll probably wrap up track andrina today using Sam's our resources here.
So it's Sam's turn now.

Droege, Sam 1:21
OK.
Thank you, Claire.
I think I'm still sharing, so we'll assume that.

Maffei, Clare J 1:25
You are.
We see your browser window right now.

Droege, Sam 1:26
OK, OK.
So we're going to continue with track andrina.
I'm going to jump to the Excel file here, which if the last two was there are two or three sessions I can't recall.
We've been using just a little review for someone who has just dropped in.
Claire sent out this file modify with notes of as much as you like.
Is that's what it's designed for and we have gone through a gosa.
We're into the mysterious Sigmund I today, and we have the we fixed the uh column with the names on the far right there so that we can scroll through these many different kinds of characters, a lot of which are subtle, a lot of which is a the approaches to look for lines of evidence and weight it accordingly rather than some on off character that separates each individual species from all the others.
A couple have that it's like nuda with it's very, very sparse skewed them pitting but others less so.
And Sigmund is one of these.
So in my notes it says that it's a lover of spring willows.
I have to tell you that I have.
I'm not sure that I've collected one and identified it, so it looks very similar.
You can see over here in the similar to column Forbesii and Marie, Marie and Marie is normally in the Midwest with a red abdomen in the east.
It is often with a the typical brown abdomen and I should also say that this is a tricky group, so it would not be at all surprising that there are other species hiding in here that have been overlooked because of the complexity.
And but also this is part of laberge's uh work in Andrina and he does really a very good job.
And we often find that he's fairly complete.
So for Bessie, I, as the other one and I think that maybe I have perhaps not been identifying many things.
As for Bessie, I over the years and perhaps have lumped in Sigmund I during that same time period.
So if we look across here at what are important features as are illustrated by having the cell filled with a yellowish color, we can see here that in my particular scheme, again you you can feel free to change these the skew them pitting is important and helps separate other things.
You can see it's set at zero.
In other words, there's no spaces between.
We'll see if that's true in our specimens here and in comparison to other species, most of which do not have absolute 0.
Most have a small number.
The exception here being forbesii, which is again one of the ones that it it most fill familiar to and I don't see any others.
Others have at least some spacing and go up to quite high.
This hat has by just having a zero is an indication that there is really little variation among the specimens that were looked at.
We looked here proportial triangle that the boundaries so the border between the proposal triangle and the outside area very clearly demarcated.
And then when we look at the sculpturing, again, we're using the yellow as an indicator of this is an important character for the species identification.
The sculpturing inside compared to the outside is much finer outside than the inside, so the inside is coarser in terms of the patterns of raised lines and such that occur there, and we keep going and then the special feature is this and I have this on deck in the the microscope viewer behind tibia may be more tuniit than most.
Maybe, maybe not.
And importantly, we have this character.
It's easy to read, appear, hind tibia, maybe more cuneate inner hind tibial spur, with bend or kink in it.
That makes it appear to be slightly S shaped.
This as it as I've noted here, often hard to see, very difficult because a lot of times that leg is tucked next to the abdomen or next to the thorax, and you just don't have access to those tibial spurs which are on the inside of the the leg behind tibia.
And there's two, right.
So we'll see a picture, one of which is the one that is in play.
And that's the thing.
The most one and the other, which seems to be almost inevitably a slightly shorter and straighter.
And then I have a note here associated with willows in the early spring.
OK, so let's see what we can see here in terms of specimens.
And I have a very.
Uh was, according to facetiously, say, recent specimen, but this was collected in 1888 and is on loan from the Smithsonian because I've had a hard time figuring these out and thought I would go to the source, collected or identified originally by Veric as paratype for I I don't.
I don't know if I have the authors in there, but presumably if he's doing that, he probably was the original author for this.
So here's the So what we're looking at is the.
Here's the tibia.
This is the base of Tarsis at the apex.
Yeah, it would be the apex.
Would it be the apex?
Uh, it would be the bottom.
Umm.
Which would depend in this case it's apex because it's upside down, so the specimens upside down.
So this would be the no that would be apex.
Sorry, just a little musings on my own terminology.
You have.
This one would be pointing to the rear if it were upside down and you can see there is this shallow S shaped kind of aspect to it.
Pretty darn subtle.
A quick look might have just called that to be and we'll on the next specimen or the next species will pull up the species.
You can do in comparison, you might say.
Oh well, that's just a little bit curved, but it is slightly kinked, particularly up here, so I you know, I struggled to see this sometimes.
So that's probably one of the reasons why I rarely identify the species, or it may very much be a northern species and something I just don't cross down here very often.
And here is the smaller, slightly shorter, slightly thinner, weaker.
Other tibial spur.
OK, so we did mention that the umm.
Hind tibia tends to be a bit more cuneate.
I'd have to go back and look at all of them to see, but you can see there is quite a if you can see through the hairs here, a quite a broad angle at the base here of the tibia, and would certainly be called cuneate and is and is definitely not narrow.
It's a little bit difficult to see because of hairs, but I can tell from this that it goes from here to here.
So on the spectrum of it's on of leg shapes, it's on that cuneate end of it.
Again, other track engenas may have something fairly similar.
OK, so I'm gonna pull the specimen and we're going to flip it over and we're going to look first at the scutum which was identified as.
Having no.
Umm, OK, sorry for the sidetrack.
I'm trying to think what did I do with my tags for the specimen and I'll have to find them later. Umm.
And then I put them in a safe place.
Might see them OK.
Doing a mess around with parent types.
Tanks.
OK.
So I'll take a look at the scutum should have very firmly in the no spacing between the pitting on the scutum there is a grand big pin running right through it but we should be able to see around the edges.
What is going on right now?
There's also old it's been.
Let me just see if I can.
Deep in there.
OK, so I think you can see around the edges that basically all the pits that are visible here we'll look for another specimen too.
Umm are touching one another.
And that is a character.
And I think I'm going to switch to another specimen to get some variety.
You wanna keep there's multiple labels on that one.
Move to this one, which I don't have to be in the old days, they loved to put on many tiny labels onto their specimens.
OK, so often on paper that is not acid free.
So they're all in various stages of decomposition itself.
OK here this is another ancient specimen.
Umm, but I think it illustrates pretty easily the idea that the.
The podium triangle.
OK, so here's the umm, skew.
Tell him Meta Notum and then the proposal triangle.
There's a fringe of here, sort of at the back end of the minute item.
So we can't see quite the base base of the.
Proportial triangle, but it's running right about there and then you can see the pretty crisp lines, very crisp lines.
As a matter of fact, that our Karen 8 lines that are differentiating the edge of the prodigal triangle.
Here's the the clipped tip so the tip is going down to the enter the posterior face, and instead of having a nice smooth line with which many be species, do it has a raised line running across the end, and then then the remainder is below that line.
That's sort of a definition of track endrina, and the light is a little dark here, so I actually gonna change the light, boost it up a bit.
So if I go here to who that feature, it's very small on my computer and, umm, bump it up.
OK, that should be good.
Yeah, we can see a little bit better.
What we're looking at amidst the age and dirt here is a relatively few crossbars, raised lines, striations.
If you will reticulations in here and then outside and I'm going to make this a little more visible.
In the computer and you can see that that it's.
It's almost as if it's just a series of bumps.
It's so finely divided, so other.

Maffei, Clare J 13:52
Hey, Sam, we just noticed that your pointer, while we can see it move around, it's not as big as it usually is, is this cause it's in the umm because you're having to do this with the browser or questionmark?

Droege, Sam 13:53
Yeah.
Hello.
Yeah, that's what.
Umm well hmm, that's interesting because I see it as very big.
So you can see this moving around.
What is it?
Is it look like an arrow to you guys?
I see it as a big crosshair that is.

Maffei, Clare J 14:18
It's a tiny black crosshair.

Droege, Sam 14:21
No, I can let me go and change it again.
I see it as a big black one, but let's just see if we can do a quick, umm, change.
I'm not sure why that is happening.
Mouse pointer size.
See I have it at 9.
I'm going to zero it out now.
It's tiny.
Do you see the tiny one now?

Maffei, Clare J 14:49
We do and I make it bigger.

Droege, Sam 14:51
OK, now I'm going to change it.
I'm going to change it back up now.
There's a big.

Maffei, Clare J 14:56
No, that's weird.

Droege, Sam 14:57
No.
And so it's not just you.

Maffei, Clare J 14:59
Usually you'd at least be able to see it on here.

Droege, Sam 15:03
Pardon.
I'm gonna change the pointer color to umm pink.
As you see, there's pink.

Maffei, Clare J 15:14
No.

Droege, Sam 15:16
OK.
Umm basically.

Maffei, Clare J 15:18
How strange.

Droege, Sam 15:20
Umm. Yeah.
I'm.
Yeah, not sure what's going on and what I could do to change the outcome.

Maffei, Clare J 15:29
Could you click the one?
That's not.
I don't think this will work, but the one that is not the color change one, but the 11 left that has the black and white.

Droege, Sam 15:35
Is it?
This one right?

Maffei, Clare J 15:38
Maybe it'll just help us increase contrast, but oh, now it's pink.

Droege, Sam 15:41
OK, it's still very big here is now that's weird because mine is not pink.
Mine is white and mine is still big, but you don't you see it as small and pink.

Maffei, Clare J 15:53
How weird.
Yes, we do.

Droege, Sam 15:58
Alright, I'm going to change it to really big no difference. Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 16:03
No difference, but at least it's pink.

Droege, Sam 16:05
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 16:07
Maybe that'll help us keep track of it and not not sure.

Droege, Sam 16:09
I this seems some odd odd lag.
I make visual feedback for touch points darker and larger, and I'm free to touch that one.
OK.
Well, we'll have to make.
Do it's showing up as a giant crosshairs on mine.
Is yours a crosshairs or a mouse, or a an arrow on this?

Maffei, Clare J 16:28
It's.
Yeah.
On this, it's now a normal tiny crosshair.

Droege, Sam 16:34
OK.

Maffei, Clare J 16:35
So I guess I'll work with this for today.
Uh, apologies everybody.

Droege, Sam 16:37
Yeah. Sorry.
Yeah.
Anyway, so outside and inside quite different.
Now we'll shift to the.
Last of the features which was.
The.
T1.
So if we look at the pitting on T1, there is just they're almost on top of each other.
In fact, in a few cases it looks like they are overlapping.
So for example in here in this area, they're very close, fewer touching.
A few are just a fraction of a pit width difference in terms of the gap between, so let's go back.
So do you see a big plus here or regular?

Maffei, Clare J 17:29
Right.
Clear white.

Droege, Sam 17:31
OK, great.

Maffei, Clare J 17:31
Maybe really like yellow, but I think it's white.

Droege, Sam 17:34
OK.
Alright, so if we go back to looking at this screen, actually this plus is a little odd and different too.
And we go to pitting on T1 is .5 to 20.
That's by Rihanna.
Nope.
It's sigmoid .5 to two which I would have said is closer than that.
So in my book it would have more fit.
This one point 252.5, which is C and nothi our zero to .4.
This is T1 that clicks for Bessie I, so again not sure how well defined the species is.
We look at the depressed proportion and .5 to .7 is pretty normal.
That would be very similar to for Bessie I, and that's a pretty firm kind of thing.
And you can see outside and inside.
The difference is highly contrasting makes for Bessie, Marie, and Sigmund the line up.
Very distinctly.
Umm, so you get into the differences.
For example, here is Sigmund.
And here's for Bessie I for Bessie.
I goes from zero on skukum 0 to .5 Sigma D0.
So not a lot of differentiation there.
If you look at Marie, it's .2 to point 7.2 ferry close, you know, to overlapping in a lot of ways and if we so the S thing seems to be the primary way to tell these things apart, but that is not a lot to go on.
So let me pull this specimen and see.
If there has a very viewable hind to be able to spur.
Yeah, it's it's difficult to see.
And.
Yeah, you know, is it, is it an S shaped or not is sort of an open question in my book on this one.
This particular specimen I This is why I struggle with this species, because here are some specimens that were identified by Laberge and compatriots.
I'm going to pull a couple more para types here and take a look at them.
You can look at me looking at them and I'm looking at T1 has some spacing between skewed, umm, super overlapping.
Umm can I see the tibial spurs?
I can.
Yeah.
Pollen all over everything, but I can't tell if it's a Willow or not and what I'm looking at these running tibial spurs.
I'm like.
Yeah.
So subtle that I'm not sure, so I I really don't like this species with maybe in that category of perhaps it's not a legit species I need to review.
I don't know what the mails are like, not because.

Maffei, Clare J 21:05
I'm going to offer in the in our species page that looks like this is reprinted from the Lipper 73.

Droege, Sam 21:13
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 21:15
It's.
It also adds the female has a second medicine mill tergum, with the apical area slightly longer than the basal area and relatively weakly punk tape.
And maybe we could look at that since the rest of this is so strongly punctate, that might be something distinctive.

Droege, Sam 21:29
The basil so are they.
OK.
Yeah, I'll.
I'll pull the specimen again.
Umm.
So let's play with our favorite, umm paratype here.
And so, Claire, are you saying that the depressed area is supposedly weaker or the basal area is supposedly weaker or?
What could you read it again perhaps?

Maffei, Clare J 22:02
I am trying to but discover life just crashed on me so.
Let me like I I can go back in the captions and find out what I said.

Droege, Sam 22:07
So.

Maffei, Clare J 22:13
Uh.
The the 2nd T2 apical area slightly longer than basil and weekly punctate.

Droege, Sam 22:19
Umm OK.
OK.
All right, so.
All right, so here to Orient here is the boundary with T1.
Here is the boundary with T3.
Here is the uh dividing line between the depressed area and the basal area, and you can see the basal area pretty well.
There's a lot of pits.
They're not quite overlapping, but they're pretty darn close and probably less than one, if certainly less than 150 diameter on average distance from one another.
So this is where we're going to take a look and I'll change the focus and we have a little bit of an issue with glare.
It's definitely sparser.
So you can see pit pit pit these pits are far more than uh.
He picked distance apart.
Is that significant?
I'm not sure.
It certainly matches the description was that mentioned in Laberge as an important species characteristic?
We're just one of many characters.

Maffei, Clare J 23:36
It doesn't.
It doesn't say whether that is like something that distinguishes fully from another.

Droege, Sam 23:41
I know.

Maffei, Clare J 23:44
The whole paragraph is.
This is a relatively uncommon and widespread species of northern North America.
Close relatives seems to be andrina celisa Flores.
Distinguished chiefly by shorter turtle hairs.
Sigmund is characterized in both sexes, but particularly in the female sex, by having the posterior high tibial for event and slightly expanded.
Umm.
In the outer 3rd to 1/2 female has T2 with ableplay area slightly longer than basil, relatively weak punctuation, and then a bit about males.

Droege, Sam 24:24
Not the greatest, I would say.
Umm.
So DNA at some point will help with this. Hopefully.
OK, let's go on to spirit, Anna.
So Spirit Anna is very close to Heracles eye, and both of these, as you'll see here, have the entirely smooth and glossy area below the central ocelli.
So very different from the other species, where you have striations in a couple cases or you have lots and lots of pitting and degree of umm, of microscope.
Sure.
That dulls it down, and it's a little bit busier.
These are shiny, so we'll go here and take a look at what else is differentiating this from the others and you can see here the maximum distance to the rim of the eye is quite large .7 to 1/2 our friend harrachi.
It's counterpart is about the same also.
So not no help there, but helps differentiate it from other species when we keep going, we see here 2 is got quite a large depressed area or lengthy .8 to .9 is in the depressed category.
We look at her Rackley eye.
It's still pretty substantial .75, you know, can you tell .75 from .8?
Probably not.
So now this is where the two clearly differentiate.
So pinning on T1 is very sparse, so the distances are three to much greater than three.
In Spurrier Spirit Anna and then up in Harrachi, they're very close .25 to .5, so though that's some pretty darn dramatic.
That's the kind of character you would love to have.
So here's a note.
Sometimes has hints of oranges to the integument of the hind tibia and tarsal segment, so that is good to note, and the only other species that really has that is here in hope hippotes, which usually has bright orange, umm, tibia and tarsal segments on the at least the hind legs.
But I think on think on all the others too.
I'm not 100% on that.
Alright, so let's dig in and pull out a spirano.
Get a clay ball here.
Yeah, this will show pretty good.
So we're going to start with.

Maffei, Clare J 27:06
So you you just mentioned the similarity between that and the bodies, but you also mentioned Heraclea earlier.

Droege, Sam 27:12
Yeah. So.

Maffei, Clare J 27:12
What is the will you be talking about that shortly?

Droege, Sam 27:16
So the only reason I mentioned hippotes is because Hippotes has as you can see on the screen here, it has orangish, hind tibia and tarsal segments, and spirina sometimes has some of that is listed here as dark brown and we can check to see if they have that.
But there was just a note at the end that there's hints, sometimes of oranges and the integument on the hind to be on tarsal segments, which would line up as being potentially oops, the, uh, common hippotes species and inspire Rihanna is around not, but not super common.
And if we look a lot of all the other characters are very different.
So let me go to the screen here and bring into view. Oops.
With this back up and running and.
Get into view the head of this specimen to clarify what we mean by smooth and shiny in the area below the front of celly, and why that is different.
I'm bringing up even more.
This is old specimen, so it's a little bit Ripley.
Not because it originally was, in other words, these something is dented in here for some reason, but I I guess what I want you to notice is that there are pits here, but in between the pits there's no real additional micro structure, no little lines.
**** greening the area or dulling it down.
It's all very smooth and very mirror like so that and correctly.
I are the two species that have that characteristic, that very shiny area between the middle of celli and the antenna base, and here very distinct, and we'll try and show that in another specimen too.
Umm.
And if we now that we have the head and here you can see, here's this quite large distance between the eye and the bend in the facial fovea.
That's defined by this going from very fat to very thin that in some species is hardly is largely absent.
So this facial fovea continues down.
And so there's very little distance in here in.
And it's not just this uh species or harrachi and a little bit of water that has that big gap.
Several others do too.
But it is a pretty well defined character that can be helpful in winnowing out alternatives.
Period defined.
Very narrow at the bottom.
I'm not sure my voice is very happy right now.
I'm not sure why.
OK, so now the main character difference.
Then, since we have this one and we'll just show a couple other specimens, is the amount of pitting on T1 much, much less than horrifically?
I actually I is less than a pit apart and this is far more than a pit apart.
We'll see if that is true on this specimen.
Move this into place.
Well, actually here is a good example.
In contrast to the Sigmund I thing that we saw last time where here is, you can see the definition of the triangle and certainly you can see the definition of the.
Tip of the triangle where it bends over and down to the face to the posterior facing face of the proposed Yum.
But you can also see there's not a whole lot of difference in terms of the sculpturing sculpturing is about as coarse inside as outside, not a whole lot of difference there.
And in contrast, if this were the previous species and several others, this would be very, very finely divided and very dramatically difference between the outside and the inside.
OK.
But we are not interested in that.
Darn it.
We are interested in the first turtle segment.
And we are looking to see what the spacing of the pits are.
Ooh, that is so shiny.
But there we go.
So there's a lot of reflection here, but you can see maybe I'll just bump up the here a little bit more.
Fine tune the focus.
What you can see though is the these distances are very, very far apart.
It's there's no way you would ever call that less than a pit diameter apart.
So this is very nice character for separating the two.
So if you see the smooth portion of the face above the antenna and below the ocelli plus a very sparsely pitted area, you know that it is by Rihanna.
We will jump.
I'm just going to show another specimen.
I have it prefixed these in.

Maffei, Clare J 33:13
Hey, Sam, when we look at this next Passman, UM, having fun today, looking at our species pages in the quick notes on there.
Umm it says basically while it is like kind of straight down from that angle, the phobia doesn't curve.
It does have a more dramatic angle such that the bottom of the phobia is more narrow than many others and ends much closer to the compound eye rather than being like straight down and having a large gap all the way down on that margin.

Droege, Sam 33:47
OK.
Yeah.
So a very it curves back to the eye.
Let's see if we can see that on this filthy special.

Maffei, Clare J 33:55
But not as like curvy.
It's not like a C curve.
It's like just more like the angle does that.

Droege, Sam 34:00
Uh-huh.
So little bit difficult to see so but here is the facial fovea, the upper part.
And you can see it curves.
It's now there's becoming a gap here and it curves there and then here it is running back like you mentioned clear.
I think I'm going to knock down the brightness.
You're a couple notches.
You have to 300.
OK.
Again, lot of reflectivity.
He even in this very ancient, these are probably all over 100 years old.
So here again is this distance.
But isn't that neat like your specimens could be looked at in 100 years by some space age students?
Who knows what they're gonna be doing?
And who knows, if we're humans or even gonna be around so.
Now.
We go back and we try to take a look at this very smooth, poor part of the face between the ocelli and the base of the antennae.
And you can see it again.
It's often easier when you have specimen in your hand and you can rotate things back and forth, but I'm trying to show a little bit here.
Yeah.
What you're looking at is and.
Well, on the next specimen we'll take a look at this area too and have it as in contrast, these are.
It's smooth between the pits and it's basically like you have pitting on a mirror.
So I think that largely covers.
Now pretty well defined species.
Once you get the the salary thing do and we'll move to the last one, Virginia Ana, which is another sort of this is sort of I think of it as the one of the most generic of the track and rinas.
So let's take a look at what makes it special.
Reconnect my drive.
So very close to Hippotes and Miranda and one more and Quintillus.
So it poddies would be the one with the orange tibia.
Miranda and Quintillus pretty generic.
We'll see if what's the differentiation going on here.
So the fat too thin ratio of the the.
Facial fovea.
So this shows that there is a pretty good ratio, so it's on the narrow, so there's a fatter and there's a narrower area rather than some of these others, where you have 1.5 to 2 and 1.7 to two and two to 2.5 showing that there's not a lot of not as great a difference between the fat area and the narrow area.
This has this next down, so if we contrast that with Umm Quintillus and Hippotes, so there's two.
That's not a very different and hippotes 1.7 to two also not very different.
So, but I think it's bringing it out in comparison to other species.
Besides, it's very similar kin, so here we have the relatively unusual state of the current.
So this is the internal proportial triangle, so that's the triangle area itself.
And we have very tall corini, so those would be the the lines that break up and reticulate the inside of the proposal triangle and the cells and they are separated into long longitudinal rectangles, not as in Quintillus, which is broken up, not into rectangles into basically probably a chain like Rick reticulation kind of thing.
This is more traditional like most of the other species long rectangles, rectangles, umm and this is showing that the border of the prodigal triangle is absent.
So there's not really even much of a line separating the in the inside of the triangle from the remainder of the protium, and we'll take a look at that and then the in the sculpturing inside the triangle compared to outside, it says the inside is only very, very slightly more coarse than the outside, so again, not very the podium triangle is not well differentiated from the rest of the podium.
It's got a dark brown and contrast to Hippotes which matches a lot of the structural features.
Is orangish in terms of the tarsal segment and we have the depressed areas .6.
So that's equivocal about in the middle.
What does Quintillus has .5 that's not very different, and hippotes also has something similar, but .6 is probably differentiating it from some of these really long depressed area species we have pinning on T1 so you can see there's a bunch of characters that you have to kind of weigh together to get through to the ID and confidence in your idea of the species pitting on T11 point five to three.
So you know, spaced apart certainly greater than one not close together like a few of the others.
And just my note that very generic for the species.
So let's see.
Let's first go to the assembly area and we'll take a look there and do that to be in contrast with what we were looking at when we were looking at the.
Last, species correctly high?
Well, not directly.
Spirulina and horrifically high and.
This is pretty good.
Again, that we're dealing with these 100 year old specimens.
You seem to think where were they collected, who was collecting them 100 years ago?
That's pretty amazing.
So everything else from 100 years ago is gone, so take a look at this.
You can see here that it's quite different, so we the pits are very much closer.
The area between the pits here is all sorts of sculpturing pretty dramatic, you know, raise lines.
Certainly not a flat surface into which pits have been placed.
It's almost a moonscape.
There's things that almost look like strachans and thing in here, but anyway quite different from what we were looking at.
So now we get to the ambiguities of this species, so it's a little bit difficult, so I'll I'll line it with my apparently very small crosshairs.
And so here is a facial fovea.
And So what we're saying is that this fat area is in comparison to other species is does not contrast as much as the other species.
In other words, the thin area is broader than the others.
It is also not very far from the eye in this area here.
This edge of the facial fovea largely follows the eye at about, you know, some relatively small distance.
Here you don't have that curving effect that you did with the last species and several other species.
So there is one characteristic we'd have to go back to the thing to look at.
What dealers pitting on tea?
One.
So we'll go there was 1.5 to 3.
And.
Looks pretty.
This is pretty pretty tight.
I'd say 1.5 to 3 is what it's supposed to be, I'd say.
Well, you can see some spacing in between there.
I could.
I could see 1.5, but I'd say in some cases, well, maybe through here.
Can I get any closer?
OK, I can see that in looking at a little more things, you have some variation in this area right here is quite close this area right here is much further apart.
Umm so.
Maybe we should have broadened out the umm spacing on the pits to encompass some of that differentiation.
At least with this specimen.
OK, let's look at the proposal triangle.
If you recall, there is relatively little contrast between the inside and the outside and.
There.
Is.
So you know you can tell this is definitely coarser than the outside and there is to, in my mind, a line on this side, on this side.
It's a little vague to tell it apart, but uh, we'll look at another specimen to see how that lines up in terms of characteristic Ness.
And we don't, we're not going to look at it, but the legs are brown.
So let's look at another specimen and see if in.
It's life.
They have that.
Let's look at the Proportial triangle area again.
Since we're just looking at that.

Maffei, Clare J 44:59
I'll also note that we have stated that is a rare vernal bee in collections, and females are noted for vertex greater than one.
When it's all said Sally diameter.
And I read something else here.

Droege, Sam 45:22
Who's that in Laberge?
Or just on one of our notes.
Things, yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 45:25
Just one of our notes at the top.

Droege, Sam 45:27
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 45:27
Uh, from from Liberge also includes females have were virginiana differ from those of Miranda by the more sparsely punctate for attacks which were looked at.
No, no, there was something else.
OK, Eleanor, if I can find the other little thing I found.

Droege, Sam 45:48
OK, so Propanil triangle area.
You can kind of.
I wouldn't say that the boundary is completely absent, but it's pretty darn vague.
In other words, the proposal triangle area sort of bleeds into the sculpturing of the others.
It's slightly coarser, in other words, there's bigger cell structure in there than on the outside, but it's not nearly as dramatically different as other species.
Unit doesn't jump out.
I mean, with a little inspection you can say ohh clearly there's a triangle.
And we'll take a look at the Fulvia.
Ohh if we look at T1 which we have right about here.
We can see.
Again, you have this variation.
I would say that's closer in a lot of these particular cases then 1.5 and three.
So I think I'm going to bump that up.
I'm going to assume that these old specimens were identified by Laberge and company.
So.
See, we'll be fine.
The three unchanged right now.
Umm.
And then change it to.
Which is it to 1?
In a minute.

Maffei, Clare J 47:22
I found it.
So just in general overall the vertex with two rows of pits there might be interesting to check.

Droege, Sam 47:31
OK.
Is that our node or liberties?

Maffei, Clare J 47:39
We don't indicate it, so I believe it's our note.

Droege, Sam 47:43
OK.
Are you so theoretically?
Sparser.

Maffei, Clare J 47:50
I wanted to see the two rows thing that we talked about.

Droege, Sam 47:58
And these could have been from specimens.
You get a whole bunch from John Asher.
We go all the way.
So you can see, I think that you mentioned clear that this distance here is greater than one and you could we don't have an exact measuring tool here, but you can see that this distance here is greater than the distance across the SLA.
If we look at the vertex here, so the vertex is in, generically would be from the backside of the aselli up to the rim here, and from this vantage point, uh, a little bit difficult to say whether that's too exact rows, but there is about two row ish in there.
So I'm not sure again if that's going to differentiate much.
What's good?
Let's look at the in here.
Because we have information on the seller distance.
I believe protects height.
Oh, it says 1.5 to 2.
So that's pretty tall.
You can see well some of the fair number of these others are also pretty tall.
So I'm not sure that's different, so I could see that as at least 1.5 on that.
In that we are gaining some capabilities here.
We hope we're pretty close to being able to do bunches of specimens with DNA barcoding, and while we'll just be doing CO1 initially and that's not always able to differentiate closely.
Allied species.
But it can a lot of times and so hopefully in these these little clutches of very close ambiguous groups, pileus perdida all of those kinds of things that we can help separate them out with DNA and then go back in and get more clarity on the morphological features.
I don't have anything more.
I do have all the specimens here and a nice little box from the ancient ones, and I'm happy to pull any species of in track and arenas that we have been speaking about.
Does anyone have any requests to go back and look at any of these?

Maffei, Clare J 50:51
Speak now you can unmute.

Droege, Sam 50:57
We're have observations about their specimens.
Getting my paratype tag back on the specimen before I forget.
Just mention that's true.
Clear has, but we are in the process of creating a much larger collection space for specimens and will have a much more extensive set of specimens for each species.
Hopefully in the near future, in a new building that it's not going to replace, this building will be it's it's the research annex in our parlance, and we're going to.
Have we already have 800 drawers?
So we can fill them up with many, many, many more specimens to make people's trips out here more valuable because we'll have a lot more reference material and ultimately we'll not not ready yet.
We'll be interested in recruiting specimens from other people so that it can be a hub of both DNA barcoding and morphological taxonomy work in the east, similar to Logan, but.
Eastern.

Winsauer, Joshua 52:28
Hi.
Hello.

Maffei, Clare J 52:33
Hello.

Droege, Sam 52:34
Hello.

Winsauer, Joshua 52:35
I've I've I've participator I've.
I've watched a few of the of yalls.

Droege, Sam 52:40
So the.

Winsauer, Joshua 52:42
Excuse me.
Several of these be seminars.
Umm I I'm a I'm a recent graduate from Texas Tech University and I I worked with Scott longing there.
Umm.

Droege, Sam 52:52
Umm.

Winsauer, Joshua 52:53
And this is just a A never ending incredible resource that I I really I really appreciate that.
I I still get to be a part of, at least for now.
But I just.
I just wanted to say thank you and yeah, I think, yeah.

Droege, Sam 53:07
Yeah.
Well, I know I don't know about at Texas Tech, but I know John Pascarella in umm gosh what's it's what's the name of that little prison down that he's in there in east and that he's working on bees of Texas kinds of things and we've been trying to encourage him because he has done the bees of Florida guides to more to have himself and his students but it can be you too really augment the Texas aspects to the Discovery Life Guide so really it's useful in the eastern part of Texas but it doesn't even really for.
Most species doesn't really cover the eastern species either, so.

Winsauer, Joshua 53:56
Well, I've used John Pascarella's guides quite a bit, and unfortunately I'm no longer in Texas.
I'm in Kentucky now, but I mean, if if if a if there's need for more more ID guides for eastern bees, I'd, I'd.
I'd love to find a way to help with that.

Droege, Sam 54:13
Yeah.
No.
Well, you can contact me and Claire offline and there's a couple things.

Winsauer, Joshua 54:14
Should I?

Droege, Sam 54:21
One is we have all of my garden users.
Lovely guides that he hasn't published, but he has made available.
And Claire has made them available through the what the some storage space on teams that people can access?
Is that right?
Clear.
Can you tell?
Tell people about that.

Maffei, Clare J 54:39
Yep, but they'll also, if they haven't already been moved into the Google Drive.

Droege, Sam 54:40
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 54:45
Umm I have to check that zip folder though because I'm not sure if everything in there is everything that he had updated based on the kind of feedback from sessions like these.
So he should hopefully be back with us in a few weeks or months.

Droege, Sam 55:02
He's he recently.
As in maybe two months ago, I think said an updated version 5.

Maffei, Clare J 55:08
I think so, yeah.
So I'm not sure if that's I have to check on that and it'll also be his.

Droege, Sam 55:11
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 55:13
We have a folder of those on the Elmira site, not on the video recording site, but on the site that leads you to the the like our homepage there and we'll be Dan and I are gonna upload.

Droege, Sam 55:19
Yeah.
Uh-huh.

Maffei, Clare J 55:27
We're making some changes to that, so that'll be updated as well.

Winsauer, Joshua 55:31
It awesome, OK.

Droege, Sam 55:31
Cool.
Well, so in any case, what we've been doing but slowly is taking.
So the nice thing about discover life is you can have as many characters as you want and they can be overlapping and they can be in some ways competing with one another.
So we have the stuff that we put together, but we've been adding mikes.
So Mike has is very much old school dichotomous key guy, but you can take apart his keys and put them into discover life and then if people and then we acknowledge this is from Mike and then if people want to, they can key out their specimens using Mike's keys in the same platform on discover life.
So, but someone has to do that.
So we've done that for some and if you're interested in that, that kind of lovely.

Winsauer, Joshua 56:15
Here.

Droege, Sam 56:21
Tedium.
I actually love it a lot, but the we have.
I was just looking at the highest key and I don't think it's up in on Mike Singh and we we would be glad to work with you on how to convert it.

Winsauer, Joshua 56:37
OK.

Droege, Sam 56:37
A lot of it is just making the language, language. Umm.
In Sync with the language on discover life.

Winsauer, Joshua 56:47
That makes sense.

Droege, Sam 56:48
No.
Yeah, email us and we'll set you up.

Winsauer, Joshua 56:51
Thank you.
Thanks for that opportunity.
I'll. I'll.
I'll send you an email here pretty soon.

Droege, Sam 56:56
OK, great.

Maffei, Clare J 56:57
Sure, there's like an example of what we're talking about on the Serotina guide.

Droege, Sam 57:02
Umm yeah, there's a couple others.

Winsauer, Joshua 57:02
OK, I'll take a look at that here in a minute.

Droege, Sam 57:06
And then other people have been uploading pictures, so if they have good pictures of some of the views, they well actually not always, because sometimes we have ignored the most common species because like who needs a picture of that?
It's so common.
Let's just do the weird stuff anyway.
The guide can, particularly if you have Western material, we certainly can accept and our encourage people to upload their pictures of some of the specimens.

Winsauer, Joshua 57:35
That's excellent.
I would.
I would definitely love to have more pictures on discover life that would be incredibly useful.

Droege, Sam 57:37
You know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if for whatever reason you have access, you are doing it, you know someone we can show you how to upload the.

Winsauer, Joshua 57:50
OK.

Maffei, Clare J 57:50
You can also.
I'm not saying that this would be a rapid change that we be able to accommodate, but if there are characters that you're when you're going through the you're like, I really need a picture or a diagram of something like that.
Umm you have some running lists of things that we're trying to prioritize there and you know, we get through a batch and then you know have to come back to it later.

Droege, Sam 58:03
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 58:13
But that is useful feedback, because sometimes, like Sam said, we're we're looking through things and we already know what that looks like.
So we don't bother with the picture of it.

Winsauer, Joshua 58:22
Yeah, that makes sense.

Droege, Sam 58:22
Right, these these guys are definitely community affairs.
So we have most of the guys have had multiple people working on them.
We're constantly finding little problems like, oh, let's change the wording or we can know who knows, they've been worked on for 20 years now.
So, umm, there's always something.

Winsauer, Joshua 58:40
Jeez.
OK, well I don't wanna.
I don't wanna keep you off, but I think you thank you for talking with me.
And I I look forward to participating in in the next week's similar.

Droege, Sam 58:53
OK, great. Thanks.

Maffei, Clare J 58:56
Yay.

Droege, Sam 58:57
Anything else?

Maffei, Clare J 58:58
Alright, Sam, what do you wanna start on next week?

Droege, Sam 59:01
Umm gosh, I don't know.
I mean, we could actually, you know, I can track down some specimens of nomada.
You know most of my collection is at the Smithsonian right now, but we could go.
I I could try and scrape together a bunch of the basic specimens and go through because this is something that everyone struggles with and just go through how to think about, you know, show some of the characters under the microscope.
This tibial CT is just sort of everyone's.
Like what the heck?
So maybe the room I will just do nomada I don't have.
I have enough material around that I think we can pull it together.

Maffei, Clare J 59:47
OK.
And then wait to come back to Andrina till Mike and Rob are back around.

Droege, Sam 59:54
Yeah, I mean, we can continue within andrina.

Maffei, Clare J 59:55
Yeah.
That might be a good idea.

Droege, Sam 59:56
We can continue with andrina too, but you know your call.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:02
Uh, well, why don't you send in some votes?
Uh, we're hoping to get Mike back, but he's in the field and then I don't know.
I don't think Rob's joined us, but then there's Rob Jean, who is a umm, a folk in private practice who loves andrina so much.
It was inspiration for one of his children's like middle name or something.
So it would be great to have rob join us when he's available.
Just, you know, it felt easier.
So might be a good idea to take a pause cause your other Cheat Sheets are for males.
Umm, I think everybody agrees.

Droege, Sam 1:00:36
We think his child's middle name.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:38
Females are more useful at the beginning.

Droege, Sam 1:00:41
I think his child's middle name is Trec Endrina.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:45
Not sure about that.
We'll find out.
We'll ask him.

Droege, Sam 1:00:49
Or imitate tricks.
That's.
That's if we're a Harry Potter.

Maffei, Clare J 1:00:52
That'll be a fun one.

Droege, Sam 1:00:54
Yeah.
Umm.
OK.
Well, so Claire, maybe ping those guys and see if they're available and if they're available, we'll do entering.
And if they're not, maybe we'll break out and do because they they really do have a much.
Umm, a greater interest in depth of of information on andrina than I do.
So it would be nice to have them come in, they they basically work on all these too.
So I don't know why I'm saying that, because they're going to have a nice balance point to pretty much anything we do.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:29
Yeah, Rob, with my first class.
So 10 out of 10, my first and only class.

Droege, Sam 1:01:33
Right.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:36
Alright.
Well, we'll see you next week.
I'll let you know in the daily and they're in the update.

Droege, Sam 1:01:40
It's.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:41
What we're working on?
Send your votes.
See you next week.

Droege, Sam 1:01:44
OK, right.
Particulare. See.
Thanks everyone.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:48
I.

Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription