Learn to ID Bees-20240717_130433-Meeting Recording

July 17, 2024, 5:04PM

56m 32s

Maffei, Clare J started transcription

Maffei, Clare J 0:08
It's hamster.

Droege, Sam 0:11
Thanks, Claire.
I'll also mention that I recently did some work in the user guide working on the mostly on atramentous and rosier, including a couple things and excluding a couple that I thought were distracting or confusing.
And I'm working on the applied us now, so updating information in particular on Pelosi, frons, producta and.
Truncata and identification of those which I thought was confusing and it might drop out some of the, umm, trickier.
States of the clypeal margin and just merging them because I think they were divided to finally.
Super interesting.
I know to everybody actually it is for this group.
What am I saying?
OK, so track endrina, yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 1:08
It is.
I've I've one more little announcement.
I'm we one.
I had a there was a very long period where there the videos weren't making it up onto the Elmira site phase are completely up to date now.
And also we found a nifty way to use AI to go back and make transcripts better, but time is always limiting factors, so if anybody has a student who needs something to do, I could walk them through how it works.
It's just a little time consuming, but way less time consuming than going through it manually.
So anyone interested in that let me know.

Droege, Sam 1:51
Say OK, I'm gonna share my screen.
And.
Who to this particular view?
And you should see Claire.
Do you see the spreadsheet?

Maffei, Clare J 2:13
Purdue.

Droege, Sam 2:15
OK, so everyone has access to the spreadsheet.
It's also, you know, the a kind of thing that you can modify too, so feel free to change things, move orders around, add additional characters, drop ones.
It's, you know, it's your spreadsheet we have been going through.
Just, uh plugging through the different species, I have to say I love the track endrina females.
Umm.
And I'm going through one on one.
We're now on Andrina Miranda, for anyone who hasn't been here.
Basically what you're looking at is a spreadsheet with characters in the columns.
You can see the character at the top at the bottom is some simple.
Information about what that character, how it's measured or a little more explanatory information to explain the heading.
Umm, there are a bunch of different characters here, some of which are pretty subtle, but the idea is this is a subtle group, so you wanna use that?
Umm.
String of evidence to help identify it.
So you don't want just one splitting things on one character because a lot of times it's a little ambiguous and there can be variation in the amounts.
So it's better to weigh a whole series of things and say yes, this makes the most sense.
We also don't forget we have the other species that the particular species in the row is similar to.
We also have highlighted in Yellow key characters to be looking for in addressing the identification of the species at hand.
So with that, glad to answer questions.
If that comes up too on that with Miranda, if we skate through here looking for yellow, we really only see this.
So two oppressed area I have a Miranda under the scope.
We'll take a look at T2 and that's pretty broad .75 to .9 and if you look here, we do have a range, but a lot of times these specimens are kissing up to .7 or .75 or firmly within that range.
And then there is a bunch that fall below.
So in itself it's not going to give us an identification string.
So we'll look at several other characters.
Miranda tends to be northern and I think mid summer in a lot of ways, but a lot of lot of these species, these endrina species in particular, unlike their cousins which are more spring oriented, tend to be more mid year.
So let me take us to the microscope.
Maybe I'll shift the specimen a little bit here.
Better look at the abdomen and I'll bring down the.
Lucas.
OK, So what we're looking for here is another sort of just general character of tracking andrina.
Is that the oppressed area of the rim, which under most circumstances for most bees and most bees, have an oppressed area.
So by oppress, we mean slightly the elevation of the area along the rim is slightly below the rest of the area.
Or another way to look at it is there is some demarcation in the rim area that shows a change from a lower it IE depressed portion of the rim to a more elevated area above it and often with that are changes in pitting density and patterns like that.
So these are subtle, and so it often doesn't show really well in a photograph or a.
Like we are looking at now with this video grab, but if you look here you can see that something's going on right about there and that's the indeed, it's the change from this is areas depressed and this is elevated and you can also see like oh, look, there's a lot of pits up here and the density is a lot fewer down here.
These are smaller too.
So what we're looking at then is what's the ratio or what's the percentage that this depressed area comprises of the entire segment, the entire segment sometimes is difficult to come up with a measure because the segment of T2 and all these other segments, they can expand and contract under Neath the previous segment in different ways.
So for example, if we go down here to teeth three, this is pretty clearly the rim of T2.
So the and this is remember these things go under each other, so T3 is under T2, But this area right here is probably a portion of the abdomen T3 segment that is more pulled out than normal.
So you don't see that up here.
You don't see this bear area, and this fringe little bit of hair is maybe peeking out.
So just to give you some indication that you can't always come up with some absolute measure, because this distance varies.
And in the situation of how retracted it is or extended from underneath the previous segment.
In this case though, you can see that this is pretty is comprising a pretty high volume.
We could say, you know .75 no problem.
Maybe even more like .8.
Yeah, you can measure it, but usually these ID keys are designed to be done by eye.
Note the great white and here patches on to the side so we can see here distinct hair patches.
There are no other yellow ones, so nothing that we thought was immediately distinctive here.
If we scan through, we see pitting on T1 as the first one.
If we go back here, we're looking at this.
The distances are really close to a little bit expanded out, so here you can see a variety of distances in there.
But we're saying .75 to one pit apart.
When we look here, maybe we'll go a little closer.
We can certainly find that range in the, you know, here very close here, more expanded out.
So yeah, reasonable in that one distribution not pertinent to the topic at hand, active in the summer as a special note, this brand is part of this, a group including virginiana that tends to be pretty generic.
So sometimes you really want to have comparative.
Ah, a comparative specimens.
So if we look at Virginia as our out group, the one we're trying to contrast is those are that's the same.
That's the same.
So borders are triangles absent long, tall, long, kariny in their rectangles spewed them, pitting .5.
But here it's .2 to more than three, which is sort of a sends a little red flag that maybe something's going on.
Then maybe we have more than one thing going on in Virginia fovea, distance .5 to .75.
So not very much, certainly not like ragosa and correctly, which we looked at before, so not a lot to go on.
So if you're looking at something that might be Miranda, you should be.
Here's here's a difference, though.
Well, actually, no, it's not.
So it's just had it more digits in the number 2.5 two to three, right?
That's not also very illuminating in most of these things.
So these things are pretty darn close.
You know slightly greater than 1.5 versus one to two.
It's very and hippotes, but that has a red most of the time a red thing in Quintillus are also very similar.
So when we're looking at these things, we would be looking at multiple.
Project.
Let's see if we can find some difference.
So they're pretty subtle.
So here, for example, pitting on T1 we looked at this .75 to one and in Virginia it's averaging much larger wider.
So the spacing is much more set apart for those pits, so 1.5 to 3, so that's would be a character you definitely would want to assess when looking at a specimen to see if it's Miranda or Virginia, and that's about it.
You don't have a whole lot to go on.
Umm, I guess.
Ohh actually wrong.
Look at this point 9 to .75.
This is .6 in Virginia, so that is so it looks like you have a couple of things.
I think we should make this see yellow then here.
Umm, what was the one I was going to make yellow?
Umm .75 only three.
Umm Oh yeah, this one should be all I'm going to do that right now because we have agency to make changes.
OK, so that's a quick introduction to Miranda.
Next we go to one of the most distinctive ones, Nuda, and I'll pull up a specimen.
After I put the labels the back on this.
I don't want to lose track of things.
Union this goes back into Miranda Pile.
Which I had out and nuda and out.
Do the I'm gonna guess in general.
In several nuda species that use the last name nuda usually end up being specimens that have relatively few pits on the skew them in the B world.
Well, that's exactly the derivation of the name.
I don't know, but it does at least rhyme with the right answer. Perhaps.
OK, so here it's the sparse pitting that's really the key.
So here you can see the yellow is designating an important character much greater than four apart, and you'll see that's almost none.
And are are sparse, and that is the sparsest of all of these.
So almost right away you can tell what it is, and I'm not sure.
Let's see, vertex height is pretty low.
Most of the species have a greater than one.
This has a a vertex height, so that's the distance between the back of the head and the lateral ocelli, and it is much closer to the back of the head than a lot of the others.
So we'll look for that.
And is there anything else?
Well, we have a T2 oppressed area that's quite wide and that's about it.
So let's take a look now on our screen.
Bring the mag down trying to get our specimen in there.
It's not in center.
There we go.
Bring this up.
OK.
So we're looking at the skew Dome primarily it's a little bit of a oblique shot here, but it is super easy to see.
There are just we'll bring me power up here.
There is some dirt on here, but even with the dirt it's pretty darn clear this is old specimen.
Pretty darn clear that these pits.
There's just really a few here and there and there, and mostly the surface is smooth and unblemished by bidding.
So very easy to tell from that point of view.
We said the vertex is.
Look at the very broad spacing on these Karina, those cells that are made by the raised lines.
You have a short vertex.
Let's take a look at that and bring that into view.
We can do control F. Let's see.
Well, control F to get us a full screen on this.
And indeed, we have good shot here.
There's a piece of dirt in the view Finder there.
It's right there.
There's the ocelli.
There's the back of the head.
If we look at this this aselli distance here fits in this slot between the two and a little bit more agreeing in general with a very short distance to the back of the head.
As we said here.
Near the front that 1.75 to one.
So that's good.
Then the last one that we had, but we really don't need it because the the we don't need to see it.
But again, it's good to just review the characters.
Is we have such a strong character in the?
Skewed them, pitting density.
But let's take a look at cause depressed areas on the rim are just, you know, it's like you wanna wanna look at those.
And when I zoom in here because there's so many variations in what could be going on.
So what appears to be here is that I'm guessing that I don't see it well that this this is part of the depressed rim and is running almost all the way up to the edge of the I'm going to bring in some more magnification here up to the edge of the.
Segment not clear.
Possibly just a bad shot, but it is a supposed to take up 90% of the.
Segment, we go back.
So.
Can't see it?
Well, that could be it.
There it seems to disappear up here.
Usually you do see something.
It's possible that it's just running right along the edge, so we'll keep looking at depressed areas to get better.
Feel for that?
I don't know that we need to spend a whole bunch more time on nuda because it does have such a great character.
Now we flip over to our spreadsheet.
The next one is Quintillus.
Now Quintillus I believe because I almost never see it of a Midwestern species.
And it falls into that category of more or less difficult to ID.
So let's take a look at the characters and then we'll see if we can find them.
Taking off some of this material.
I believe this also may be.
Something.
Found far to the West, but I'm not looking at the distributions right now, so when we look at Quintillus, we're gonna go start at the beginning here and.
Look for our yellow areas.
So here we're looking at the internal parts of the proposal triangle.
It says talk Carini large shells, not rectangular.
So in other words, there's not that pattern of tall rectangles, and if you look at elsewhere, most of the other species have that rectangular aspect to the cell structure.
So it's probably netted or something like that.
Again, I will be interested as well as you, and then it's got distinct bands of dense white hair on T2T3 with complete bands.
So normally when you see these dense white hairs, they aren't complete.
You know the words.
They are not running across the entire room, they're just simply parked on the lateral edges.
Let's see, mostly Midwestern pitting, pitting all across T2, uniformly dense pins.
Pins almost touching.
OK, we got a lot to look at here.
I'm bringing up a specimen towards the abdomen.
Part of that specimen and.
Umm, I'm going to change the.
Angle a little bit.
And we're going to look for a complete bands and dense pitting.
Look at those dense complete bands, so that's very unusual to begin with.
So there's T2 has a broken T3 and T4.
I think that's what they said.
T3 and T4 right?
Well, umm ohh it I I'm not sure.
It means here if we look up here.
Distinct bands of dense white hair on T2T3 with complete bands, so you could read that as T2 and 2-3 with complete bands, but I believe looking at the specimen you have T2 with bright went bands but not complete and T3 with a complete white band.
You also can see that throughout this segment we have very dense pity.
And to again work with our what is a depressed area?
This would be the boundary here with the depressed area and the sorting becomes hard to read there.
But you can see the shadowing here.
So if we look at this, I'm gonna say this particular specimen, roughly 50%.
Let's go back and see what they say.
That's not one of the characters.
Look at that 50% and so I'm other characteristics here are the not rectangular parts of the.
Predial triangle.
And dorsal proportion of the proposed Yum in other words.
You.
And.
And move it more to the center.
So Orient everyone.
And it wasn't just bump up the magnification a bit, so here's what we're looking at skewed them.
Boundary scutellum boundary Meta Notum boundary for podium and triangle of the podium.
This section here would be, I believe, almost certainly the vertical.
Face that's facing the abdomen and I just went out of focus.
But now if we look at the raised Carina and the cell structure within here, you can see that basically this is just like a big netting, right?
There's none of what you see in other ones where you see within the proposal triangle area what amounts to a series of long rectangles where the north, South, or the what would that be? Longitudinal raised. Carina. Striations are forming big cells, but here it's basically a net.
So in other words, there's no particular direction to the dimensionality of the different veins.
If you want them or corini and it just says like a netted structure over here that's I'm a little bit more true.
But we're really focusing on the middle part here.
OK, so I think also just a note, look at these thickened hairs up here.
It's not something I mentioned in that guide, but that strikes me as maybe distinctive also, but I don't know.
So I think we have looked at the key characteristics here for our friend Quintillus.
Again, something I don't see, yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 24:40
But.
Yeah, let's interrupt for a second.
Our friend will asks about the column.
Ohh which is about the oppressed area.
Is that the same as the depressed rim?
I usually look for hairs or see sets in see tight when I see that word.

Droege, Sam 25:01
OK, let me go to the spreadsheet.
So column O, ah, abortion of.
So what was it?
Can you repeat the question?

Maffei, Clare J 25:14
Are you using a pressed and depressed as synonyms, or what's going on there?

Droege, Sam 25:21
Yes, sorry.
Is that sloppy?
Should it be?
Should it always be depressed?
Is oppressed and depressed the same?
Probably not.
Otherwise, it'd be different words, right?
So that's probably umm, maybe better as depressed with 1P.
What is the difference between appressed and depressed?
Let's ask our friend no.

Maffei, Clare J 25:43
So I looked it up.
There you go.
Look up for the Google.

Droege, Sam 25:49
OK.
Oh, you want me to do it?

Maffei, Clare J 25:54
Yeah, that would be good to have it on the screen rather than me just reading it.

Droege, Sam 25:58
OK.
Umm.
Are you depressed, Claire?
You might be suffering from oppression.

Maffei, Clare J 26:12
I still enjoy a I still enjoy things.
I think I'm getting better at that.

Droege, Sam 26:17
Ohh, I wonder if it's ad pressed.
I think this is spelled wrong.
Is that how it's saying that doesn't that is not a word.
Someone, some English major help us?
Test.
He likes it as a word.
Oppressed.
But does it?
Google does it.
Deep breaths versus at breasts.
It really doesn't show you what is your Google version.
Say it says oppression.
Depression versus oppression.
This is not helpful.
Uh, maybe we have to categorize it.
There's the morphology.
How about that?

Maffei, Clare J 27:08
Hey, here are my quick definitions.
Addressed is like start with a D so not on the spreadsheet right now is lying closely against an adjacent part or against the ground, such as scales, depressed.

Droege, Sam 27:13
Ah.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Maffei, Clare J 27:25
So the first definition is the clinical definition.
But yes, two to push or pull something into a lower position.
And Apress is to press something closely to something else.

Droege, Sam 27:36
Uh-huh.

Maffei, Clare J 27:41
So I think that's where we use that for the for the hairs.

Droege, Sam 27:45
Right.
Ah, right.
OK, so anyway I think I am convinced at this point that we should be just using the term deep rest.
If not, I mean someone can email and that's might be a good interesting bee monitoring notion.
I pressed and pressed hair, so pressed hairs makes sense hairs.
We know what those are.
Those are like the things on EPS tribulus and things like that.
So hairs are flat to the surface, but those are those oppressed APP or ADP?
OK.
We're we're let's.
We're losing focus here, but I think that was in that's an interesting thing that I'll have to be followed up anymore on that clear.

Maffei, Clare J 28:42
There is consensus, I believe, that we're going to change test and keep talking about hairs as oppressed, and we're gonna skip this new word adpressed.
We're gonna ignore that one.

Droege, Sam 28:55
All right.
Gene will look it up, OK, so.
Done with Quintillus.
Now we get to Rennie.
So let me did it pull the specimen?
I think I did.
So Renny is interesting because it is a castanea specialist.
So in other words, it's a specialist line.
Chestnut American chestnut and also on.
Chinkapin and so that that's why there was this big hiatus.
Like no one could figure out there's why is there no recent records of right?
This is, but this is in the wrong place, correct that Quintillus you go there.
So Rennie is interesting.
So anyway, if anyone is near any chestnut trees, we've been finding them on the plantations that people make for the back crosses of American and Chinese chestnuts, and also on chinkapin.
So there's a short bloom period.
Well, not that short.
It's actually just no one pays attention for both and, and they're late.
They're June.
Uh.
Bloomers, which is in keeping with track entering as being a late in the year species and it is the was the last big blooming ohh factor within forests.
OK, so steep.
What is different about Rennie?
So 1.25 to 1.4.
By one.
So it has a very long F2, so that's the second Flagler segment.
The others are basically all one to one, so there's a a Gimme right there.
Vertex height also very long, so 1.5 to 2.
The others?
There's some others that are in that same category, but that's in general a pretty distant one to come, particularly when we were up just up here with nuda as being very short.
Umm, so this is another cell snot rectangular situation.
Umm.
T2 depressed area.
Pending on T1 widely spaced 2 to 4.
Alright, let's.
OK, here's uh, some notes shall shallow facial phobia compared to others.
Labrum made may be broader than others, so we don't haven't seen that many specimens to track down.
Some of these things.
So let's look at, say, pitting on T1 first on the specimen.
And it should be pretty widely spaced and it appears to be so compared to July 2 to four, I think they were saying we could see that over here.
You can see it maybe the best.
OK, now we are in shooting distance of the proposal triangle which should be have that netted effect that we just looked at the previous specimen, and that also seems to be the case where you just have squiggles.
There's no particular one type of dimension in that in those raised cells are ridiculous.
Zions.
Then we jump to.
Not sure if I'm missing anything but ohh the vertex height and to the internal length of the second flagellar segment.
But some busted in Tenney, going on in this very old specimen which was collected on castanea.
I'll tell you when we at the end, what year period.
Of course it's from Falls Church.
OK, so let's get this in focus.
We may have two weight of a background, but we might be able to see that we're gonna see if I can.
She she was a lot of little bit hesitant.
I'm going to get another pull another specimen to get the antennae.

Maffei, Clare J 33:32
When you pulling out of specimen, can we see T1 again?

Droege, Sam 33:37
T1 again, sure.
All right.
And let's look at this one.
I wanna see where that one was collected.
So that one was collected in Falls Church, VA, in 1916 on Castanea Paula.
So, but that's so that's pumla is chinkapin not and dentata is.
The American chest.
Right.
What do we got here?
And this one has a yeah, we should be able to see this one better against a black background.
Also from Falls Church looks like the same collection date.
Is a collector green?
These are the things to think about though.
Is that we're looking at over 100 year old specimen and if you can get your specimens into.
A museum, then we will not we, but someone will be looking at your specimens in 100 years.
And any insight into your collection efforts?
Right. So.
This is the scape.
This is the pedestal.
This is F1.
This is F2F2.
Usually length tie width is about 1:00 to 1:00 and you can see here depending on whether you measure down there up there, I'm not sure that we specified, but in either dimensionality this length here is immersive slightly not on this in.
In other words, we're looking down this specimen.
You can see that's out of focus, so it's a little bit off in a way that diminishes the length, but you still can very clearly see this is clearly longer than it is broad.
We go back here, we see in looking at Rennie.
Here.
Wait, whoops, sorry.
Looking at vertex height 1.5 to 2.
Where was.
Oh, there we are.
1.25 to 1.4 by 1, so that's fits and again clearly longer than the others are gonna be for takes height.
Also, should be extensively long.
But everyone should be visiting.
Interestingly, it is a question mark how important Chinese, like Chinese chestnuts are planted regularly.
No one looks at them very much.
They do appear to have specimens Tracy Zarrillo has found them on just a, you know, random Chinese chestnut.
And let's see what we're looking at the vertex now.
Yeah, I'm starting doing two things at once.
Right.
It would be good to do more sampling my Chinese chestnuts.
OK, so look note here.
This is just that area below the central ocella that we sometimes look at, not smooth.
Rugged, hard to see, very dulled by lines and pits here and there, but if we look at this distance you can see that this distance to this distance is much greater than the diameter of the ocelli.
If we put in our pretend decelles, it's like 1 1/2, and indeed there it says 1 1/2 to two that could have changed depending on the angle that we were looking at.
You wanna see T1 again, so that should be umm.
To to do 2 to 4, let's do that.
The meal has some interesting characters too, that are pretty distinct, but for you what they are.

Maffei, Clare J 38:13
And the other like follow up to the vertex height is.
You've highlighted that on the runny, but there's a couple others, particularly the virginiana that has that kind of depth. What?

Droege, Sam 38:29
Uh-huh.

Maffei, Clare J 38:31
Why?
Why?
What I mean, we'll get there, but that's a that's a question for later.

Droege, Sam 38:33
Right.
Yeah.
Well, I think the UM so personal choice, not a algorithm.
And I think the answer lies in that the in, but obviously not was not the case in that first one that Miranda, one that we saw.
That I would have chosen a set of yellow markers.
Yellow marking things that if you saw that combination that that would equal a species ID.
So I think that's largely the case, but maybe not necessary and obviously not always cause that one was the the thing, but I think that's the general idea.
OK, so this should be T1.

Maffei, Clare J 39:26
So I wanted you to bring this back up because I think it relates to when we were talking to Joel about his definition of sparse meaning, more like it's inconsistent spacing.

Droege, Sam 39:27
Yeah, go ahead.

Maffei, Clare J 39:38
And you do have in your notes that it's the average number of diameters to nearest neighbor in central area, discounting the rim area.

Droege, Sam 39:39
Hmm.

Maffei, Clare J 39:46
But I think you can maybe explain a little bit like where where that means and is this like the farthest distance that everything is apart or is that one is a really umm distinctive example of what that might mean?

Droege, Sam 39:47
Mm-hmm.
It could be right.
It is something that when you talk about pit inner pit distance needs to be defined like is.
So if you're at a pit, you could one distance measure could be what's the nearest pit.
OK, what's that?
Distance.
The other would be and that's the one I think that we're using.
So what's the nearest neighbor average distance from any choice of pits?
And it's several.
In this case, it could even be more than 4, but it looks you know four is not unreasonable.
It's very well spaced.
The other would be I choose a pit and now I'm looking at, you know, its neighbors, whatever that means.
And looking at the number of pits between them.
So the more consistent definition is to say.
If if for a set of pits or for a particular pit, you're going to measure the distance to the nearest one, right?
So that's just one measure and it's clear there is one pit other pit that is going to be the nearest one.
What's that distance, then?
Take an average will give you a description.
Of the average distance?
Uh, and maybe if it's very variable, you would want like a standard deviation, but that's going beyond I think what most people are willing to do in terms of time.
But I think yeah, so does that make sense?

Maffei, Clare J 41:30
Yeah, I don't.
I don't think we're doing that level of detail.

Droege, Sam 41:37
I don't know what else you would do in terms of pit describing the distances between pits.

Maffei, Clare J 41:39
No.
Yep, I just wanted.
It was seemed like a really good example there to to use to really nail that one in.

Droege, Sam 41:52
Yeah.
Yep.
So and the the functional bottom line, these are pretty sparse and certainly not piling on top of each other.
And we can compare that to other species, and it's much less sparse.
So I think we covered Rennie, so we should jump to rugosa.
And as the name implies.
It should be. Oops.
Not put them in the wrong spot.
Here we go.
It should be pretty easy.
Well, it should.
Something should be very rugose, very rugged, very.
Skilled with topography on this and indeed we will see where we can go first to our spreadsheet and again you guys can make your own spreadsheets for anything.
I find this useful when I'm really have a tough group with lots of possibilities just to find an anchor in terms of making decisions without holding too many variables in my mind.
OK so here if we just keep going and we go back here, so student pitting highlighted basically overlapping so zero to overlapping like no spacing whatsoever.
Ohh, we go here.
We 2.75 to 9, so pretty long depressed area and when we go here special features.
He uh.
It's basically saying let me look up here to see all the words that this is very rugose, so very sculptured, very ruggedy.
I also know, although I don't think that I put it in here as important, that the distance to the rim of the eye is pretty wide.
So you pull a specimen.
Yeah, I think it's we'll start with, yeah, why not take a look at that.
You power down.
And we are looking the abdomen.
No.
Umm.
There's.
Yeah, there we go.
No, this is you're venient.
Here's the fovea.
This is the wide part.
Remember, we sometimes we look at the ratio so and next down quite a bit.
We didn't highlight that when I talked about it and it's very arched, it's not straight down, not paralleling this so very much arches out and you can see that this is quite wide.
So that's a good marker.
Next, we will travel to the Skum and what we should see is very rough surface, lot of topography, lots of hills and valleys and also the pits.
So closely spaced these since they are overlapping one another.
And that does not look Mike the case.
So I'm wondering if I have a wrong specimen here because I'm going to pull another one.
That just does not strike me.
Am I missing something?
They're close, but they should.
I mean, my impression is there's too much smooth area in there, so I'm going to put this back on and we will get another one and see if we see something.

Maffei, Clare J 46:25
In discover life, while you're looking for that.
What it says for rugosa to separate it from neuda and some other ones that it's unique in this group for punctures on the skew Dem large course overlapping or separated by at most half a puncture width throughout and at the puncture is give rise to long hairs with my new branches, which sounds like maybe what we were looking at, but just a little bit farther apart than expected.

Droege, Sam 46:28
Yeah.
Umm.
Yeah.
Maybe a overemphasize the roughness of the surface, because here on this second one look at my other specimens here it's essentially looks the same, but maybe even or maybe a little closer.
And we should change that to be not so to include us a spacing that is not touch type.
The implication in that one I've moved this one interesting.
I've got one that I'm looking at that does seem to fit the bill of like everything's touching another one, and then I have another one that I'm going to show on.
Well, show both.
Why not?
So here is the second one.
We look at the umm skewed them.
And we can see essentially what is the same as the last one, maybe a smidge.
Now it's basically the same.
You see all the hairs coming out of those pits and it was very hairy.
And the some of the pits are touching, but a whole bunch of them are basically just close, always within half.
That's for sure.
Let's go to this other one that I have here and yet.
Take a look at it's pits.
They have a bunch of old specimens that.
Just for qualification, I don't think I wanna get too.
It's right.
So here.
Kind of the same thing.
There's some touching so about the same.
Here's coming out of the pits.
Let me look at these old specimens.
And.
Just look at them the microscope rather than delaying things by going further.
Yeah.
I think The thing is that if you look at them from afar.
Everything looks like they're touching, but when you zoom in, you actually see, oh, you know what?
There's spaces between a lot of these.
OK, I'm going to modify things so.
Surely put in the right place.
Ghosa and also we will take a look at this one.
I believe we also mentioned did we not that it has a long.
So first of all, we're going to modify this to be not zero to overland, but 0.5.
We're going to changing things on the fly.
You don't like the things we just change the definition.
So we'll look at the rest area, .75 to 9.
I think everything else it says, indirect converses, serve as a skin was much more sculptured.
I don't.
I'm gonna get rid of that.
And make that change the color later.
So let's look at depressed areas.
Center it.
So .75 to 9 is what we're looking for.
And if we look on here, so T-12 this.
So bring up the magnification.
Pretty subtle.
Depressed area.
You can see it's roughly going right through there and that would be somewhere in that neighborhood point 8.85 uh percent value.
OK.
So.
This is what happens with guide you.
There never really finished as you go through.
Umm, what time do we have Claire?

Maffei, Clare J 51:55
It's time to wrap up.

Droege, Sam 51:55
Who? Where?

Maffei, Clare J 51:56
We got like 5 minutes.

Droege, Sam 51:58
OK, I have 150.

Maffei, Clare J 51:59
I said in the chat, while you're finding something that since you've been talking, I found and I've made these in my own little quick notes that the associations, especially when you're just like dropping them casually or super helpful in some of these, you'll have like the more geographic note in your quick guides.

Droege, Sam 52:07
Uh.

Maffei, Clare J 52:18
But you know, I wrote down the chestnut thing.
And when they're associated with forests, they're spring times.

Droege, Sam 52:21
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 52:23
So those are things you might want to take note of, and then on certain species guides we have like kind of quick notes that are that are helpful as well.

Droege, Sam 52:27
OK.
OK.
Yeah, I'll also note for ragosta that having looked at people's results and umm I that we're also seems to show up a lot in canopies.
I think we're still in infancy in our canopy exploration of what Beezer doing, what the heck they're doing up there.
Besides getting caught in our traps, but rugosa may be something to look at.
But I can't remember if they were mostly males or included the females.
We did some canopy stuff too and found unbelievable numbers of imitate tricks, but they were or slash Morrison, Ella, but there were almost all meals.
Perhaps they were nectaring.
OK, so next time we'll go through Sigmund D, which is tricky.
It's a tricky one.
It's periana virginiana.
It's Brianna.
I think is a Willow specialist.
It could be wrong.
So, umm, anyone have any questions about umm?

Maffei, Clare J 53:45
Not in the chat, but you're welcome to unmute.
This is a tricky group, fully support you on muting.

Droege, Sam 53:52
The real tricky group, or the males of this group, which I I don't identify, I just called them track except and hippotes which has orange legs.
Easy enough.
It's on the list of things to investigating.

Maffei, Clare J 54:11
You do have a little spreadsheet for it, but it's not as as clear as the one you're providing for the females.

Winsauer, Joshua 54:11
Uh.

Droege, Sam 54:19
No, I didn't realize I even had one.
It's been that long, I think I've just given up for the moment.
We hope to do some.

Maffei, Clare J 54:27
Maybe I made it myself.

Droege, Sam 54:28
We're kind of good.

Maffei, Clare J 54:29
I don't think I did.

Droege, Sam 54:31
I don't know.
I don't know.
I hope to dabble in molecular stuff here.
We're dipping our toe into that, but the molecular stuff that we'll be doing is in relationship to morphology and identification.
So this is gonna be one of our target groups.
Ah, in that effort, long term effort and it will be.
Let's start the DNA barcoding.
A bunch of males and then we will begin collections and then we will have higher confidence that we're actually looking at a species of track endrina with a name of well, that's consistent.
So the names you know, I just don't trust even the stuff that's been identified so far.
So that's the problem.
Like if when we do a lot of guide work, we'll go to the Smithsonian or go to sell, you know, a collection that we've gotten or people have sent us specimens.
The assumption is that those identifications are correct, but inside case like this, then what can happen is you have specimens, but they aren't correct, and then you get really just the rabbit holes galore. Bottomless.
But kind of fine for those of us who like that and we hope more of them, more people are interested in that.
OK.
Well, it sounds like we're ready to go.

Maffei, Clare J 56:02
Well, thanks everybody.
Check out all the endrina links.

Winsauer, Joshua 56:09
Thank you for today's lesson.

Droege, Sam 56:11
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 56:12
Of hello new friend.

Winsauer, Joshua 56:14
But hello.

Maffei, Clare J 56:17
Awesome.
I'm gonna stop the recording.
Like I said, Elmira has been brought up to date, and I'm gonna push this one immediately.
So yay I I guys.

Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription