Learn to ID Bees-20240522_130236-Meeting Recording

May 22, 2024, 5:02PM

1h 7m 8s

Droege, Sam 0:07
I don't think I have any introductions or announcements at the moment of.
I think Mike might be joining us next week to start going through.
Through with us on andrina.
OK.
But I I think that's it for a couple of weeks of information I need to share.
Got it.
Alright.
Uh, David, just take it away.

David Cappaert (Guest) 0:32
Yes, cool.

Droege, Sam 0:33
You might just give people who didn't show up last week where how we got to where we're gonna be today.

David Cappaert (Guest) 0:39
Sure.
OK.
Yeah, actually, I mean, that's sort of the first thing.
So tell me when you see my screen.

Droege, Sam 0:45
We got it.

David Cappaert (Guest) 0:46
Alright.
And then I'm going to go to.
Is this the one I want?

Droege, Sam 0:53
Got discover life on track.

David Cappaert (Guest) 0:53
Oh, then yeah, no, this is the one I want.
So, so let and actually I have an alternate view of discover life.
So let me go to that one, uh, too many, too many.

Droege, Sam 1:03
And Claire or myself can also show uh and some other things if you want.
If that's efficient, FYI.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:11
Yeah.
Yeah.
So hold on.
I had ohh.
Here we go.
OK, so first just to quickly review the specimen.
So we had this is our bee and we we were able to talk about the the fovea.
It's dark above light.
Below we are able to talk about the distance from the phobia to the lateral Celis.

Droege, Sam 1:36
David, David.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:37
Go ahead, Sam. Yes.

Droege, Sam 1:38
I tell people why it's got the subgenus.
Name it does just so they don't get confused.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:46
Yes.
Well, we haven't got the subgenus yet, Sam.

Droege, Sam 1:48
Well, it's on there.
It says class hendrina whereas I think is clever, but just not to confuse people.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:54
Ohh yeah, no it's.
I'm not confused about class and and and genius it.

Droege, Sam 2:00
No, but it might confuse other people.

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:02
Yes, yes, yes.
OK. OK.

Droege, Sam 2:03
I thought I was good, OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:05
So yeah, the big the big overview, yes, for people who weren't here last week.
So I had a mystery injury and I photographed the heck out of it.
So we could easily discuss the traits and I was also using my own.
I cool.
Let's see.
Where is that sucker?

Droege, Sam 2:25
Boss, OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:25
Why?
No, no, no the sorry, the.
Traits key the guide to discover life.
It'll just take me a second.

Droege, Sam 2:39
OK, putting it in the chat.

David Cappaert (Guest) 2:41
Yeah, and here it is.
OK, So what I did last week was was to take my mystery specimen.
Look at it carefully and then talk about how it ranked for these characters that are in this guide that I made because it discovered life.
Although it's a go to for me as a step to to to figure out these angina, I just like many other people was even though you think it's straightforward to talk about the vertex length in my first little examination here, it's not entirely straightforward for me until I really looked at it carefully.
Compare the different alternates of that trait and look at giant pictures of them.
So this guide to discover life is for me taking the characters that I think are the most useful and just walking through what the difference traits of the phobia might look like.
Whether it's shallow here or very deep here at cetera, OK.
So we walked through last week and I'll I'll just review it quickly with our specimen, how we applied these various things.

Droege, Sam 3:40
Yep.

David Cappaert (Guest) 3:47
So with our.
Specimen.
We walked through the key and we named these things in discover.
Life we named the trait conditions and came up with.

Droege, Sam 4:02
No.

David Cappaert (Guest) 4:02
Go ahead, Sam.

Droege, Sam 4:04
No, I'm a green you.

David Cappaert (Guest) 4:05
Yeah.
OK, so we came up with this short list right now.
It has seven kinds that match and that was based on everything we saw about.
Not that one about, sorry.
You think I'd be super organized with these things?
Where is this?
Ohh yes.
OK, so based on all these things, width of the phobia, this is the skewed them and it's it's pitted and it's one to three pit diameters separation.
It's very rough.
The vertex is relatively long, so here I calculated 1.3 or seller diameter, so I'm making the comparison and this is the label process.
This is gonna be a problem and Sam suggested I think that he thought this might be by dente.

Droege, Sam 5:00
And we're not saying that we're not seeing the labor process.

David Cappaert (Guest) 5:00
Or.
Right here.
No, you don't see my screen with a little toothy thing.

Droege, Sam 5:06
There we go.

David Cappaert (Guest) 5:07
Yeah. OK.

Droege, Sam 5:07
Now we now we do OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 5:09
Yeah.
So I mean that's either by density or strongly emarginate probably.

Droege, Sam 5:14
Great.

David Cappaert (Guest) 5:15
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 5:16
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 5:16
And then this is the special go ahead.

Droege, Sam 5:16
So you would click both.

David Cappaert (Guest) 5:19
You could click both for sure, yes, and then this is the specimen from the side and we can see the right here.

Droege, Sam 5:19
He was.
So you would click both, yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 5:27
The propyl corbicula is definitely complete.
It has this anterior, and I'm sorry if my cursor is not big like it's supposed to be, but the anterior of this curriculum is fringed, so there's a sort of a wall here and it you could look inside.
It would be bare with no internal hairs.
Another thing you can kind of see here is that the shape of the tibia is a pretty good character, and it's cuneate, so it's much narrower at the origin than it is apically.
And then we have almost complete.

Droege, Sam 6:00
That's.

David Cappaert (Guest) 6:03
Hair bands.
So that's that's a character that we selected and.
A distinctive thing about this one is no pits and a rough T2.
Here is the proper deal triangle and it's got no sculpturing here and we could look at some contrast like in in that guide.
But there's a few, like the track injury, you know which I think you're soon gonna consider that are super sculptured here.
This is like the opposite sort of condition.
There's no.
Rugi or roughness there and so anyway, these are some of the things that we saw looking at this mystery specimen and another.
There's some features of this.
One are a completely dull clypeus, so there's nothing shiny about any portion of this.
And what else do we see here?
I think we talked about the antennal segments and comparing F1 to F2 plus three so that one into our calculation and that's it for that one. OK.
So if I go back to the engina key here, we had seven choices, and last week we did a thing where we compared the trait sets for some of the choices we have and for whatever crazy reason this happens all the time.

Droege, Sam 7:08
Mm-hmm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 7:23
Last week we came up with three choices and now I have 7 because there's just a slight difference in in how you're interacting with that.
You know, system to come up with the list.
So if you make a call a slightly different, go ahead Sam.

Droege, Sam 7:36
Yeah.
Let me yeah.
So I'll just mention this happened does happen all the time.
It would be absolutely the same.
It's not the guide that's flipping, it's that maybe you on the first time you only clicked on bidentate and not emarginate, and the second time you did a marginate plus bidentate.
And so when you did that, you added a few more species to that possible list.

David Cappaert (Guest) 7:56
Right.

Droege, Sam 8:02
Pool.
It also points out that, umm, that going through the guide more than once.
First of all, my correct your mistakes.
If you had any and then you can take more conservative and less conservative passes and you can say maybe I'm gonna drop this character because I'm not.
I'm like 98% but not 100%.
Let's see what happens.
Theoretically, you would always end up in the at the end in the same with the same answer, but the ultra conservative approach is always the best one first, because that increases your confidence that you've ended up with the right species.

David Cappaert (Guest) 8:41
Right, right.

Droege, Sam 8:41
So anyway, this is mentioning that as background.

David Cappaert (Guest) 8:42
Yes.
No, that's and the.
That is my experience.
Any key you probably have to go through it three times before even approaching confident.
So one thing I wanna point about this and let's see can I make my to little bigger.

Droege, Sam 8:51
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 8:56
So if I I'm I'm gonna show one thing over here on the left.
One of my matches is Angustia Charsadda and I'm going to spill the story here that I believe that's what my mystery specimen is, and I'm pretty confident of.

Droege, Sam 9:11
OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 9:12
But look what happens in the Discover life key if I change from if I say that it is by dente, which is one way you can interpret the image we saw just a minute ago.

Droege, Sam 9:22
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 9:24
If I choose that.
And search again, and Gussie Charsadda drops out.
So either the specimen I have go ahead, Sam.

Droege, Sam 9:35
So hang on, because it looks like you have both emarginate, but not by dentate and bidentate clicked, not ah no.

David Cappaert (Guest) 9:45
Right.
So that's a little puzzling to me.
So let's say if I took weekly in margin is Angusta, Charsadda comes back.

Droege, Sam 9:56
Uh-huh. Well.

David Cappaert (Guest) 9:56
So that's I'm a little puzzled by how this works, but go ahead Sam.

Droege, Sam 10:00
Well, let's so one thing is you're using the has feature rather than the guide feature and it's possible that something else is going on that would not occur in the guide proper because you're using this back door.

David Cappaert (Guest) 10:09
Yes.

Droege, Sam 10:21
See what I'm saying?

David Cappaert (Guest) 10:21
Yeah, right.
I do.

Droege, Sam 10:22
It should be explainable, but I'm not sure exactly and so I don't know if clicking on the characters in has is absolutely the same as clicking on the characters in the front end of the guide I I just don't know the answer.

David Cappaert (Guest) 10:23
I do.
Right.
And I agree it it.
It feels to me different, and I should say why I use the has feature rather than just the conventional way of making some clicks is that if I start out with a specimen and I think I have a pretty good sense of many of the traits.

Droege, Sam 10:46
You.
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 10:57
If I do has I can see every single trait and make a declaration on the ones I know.
If I use the normal system, there will be about 12 things initially, and then it simplifies and so on.

Droege, Sam 11:02
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 11:07
So it's a different way to interact.
So yeah, I agree it might be sort of different, but what I want to do.

Droege, Sam 11:14
Ask you a question.

David Cappaert (Guest) 11:15
Yes please.

Droege, Sam 11:16
So or this is first this first say I'm in the function and maybe for everybody we've we've talked about that like you can skip past the first page, the first page is just sort of usually a really good way to assess out and bring the lists really down.
OK, this is Claire's talking about.
Using the guide as you normally would, go ahead.
Yeah, as you normally like and we've talked about this before, about you can use the guy as you normally would and those first like, you know, dozen of characters on our first page are usually ones that kind of like nicely break out morphospecies.
But you can just jump right by getting the search and then simplify again.
That'll jump you right into the really big list of characters that you see in has, and that you can then be toggling and you can control F for that like they'll have hot links at the top right.
So I I would wonder if like during this we can experiment with those and see like maybe there's like something on the back end of the coding is weird and we can go and look at those characters that you were just jumping to and see how they were because yeah, usually I use the has I often use the has two for the same reasons that you're describing.

David Cappaert (Guest) 12:19
Right.

Droege, Sam 12:24
But since we're seeing this weird coding thing, let's experiment with this right?

David Cappaert (Guest) 12:29
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 12:29
So I you I also use the has approach, but I usually use it when I know there is one one couplet that I'm interested in like I know.
Ohh is it you know and I can jump to that melon Drina couplet.
Because I know it's in there, like the answer is living in there and rather than and then and the rest of the time I use the guide and the simplify button to trim things as quickly as possible.

David Cappaert (Guest) 12:51
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I and and I think one bottom line Sam is that with discover life, I mean there's a little bit that's sort of hard to suss out about it and my experience and it made me just because of cognitive limitations on my part is that it takes 100 hours of fooling around with it to even get a good sense of how to interact with the character sets and what when to use the different approaches to it.

Droege, Sam 13:03
So I'm yeah.
Exactly.
Right.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:27
So what I'm.

Droege, Sam 13:28
Yeah, it's more complicated than the a piece of paper with a dichotomous key and more powerful and more dangerous depending on whether you know how you approach it.
You know, if you approach it like I'm just gonna answer questions, you're in the same boat as just going through a dichotomous key and guessing.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:42
Yes.

Droege, Sam 13:49
So yeah, to get back to the idea, I do have a question in the chat.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:51
Right.
And the other problem of.

Droege, Sam 13:55
So continue your conversation.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:55
OK, good.

Droege, Sam 13:56
But then there's a question.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:58
So I mean the other thing to point out about discover life's andrina key is it's facing enormous odds against the tremendous diversity of andrina, and many of these are separate on on fine characters.
And so it's a big challenge in Oregon when I when I use that in the Discover Life key, I get 140 possible matches.
So it's hard to end up with the fine distinctions that differentiate penicillus from angusta, torsade or whatever.
So you can't expect discover life to nail this unless you have another year and two full time staff to really, you know, chase it down.

Droege, Sam 14:31
Mm-hmm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 14:39
So it's always a question of.

Droege, Sam 14:40
Well, you should be able to at this point have discover.
Like nail it east of the Mississippi.

David Cappaert (Guest) 14:49
Right.

Droege, Sam 14:49
But West of the Mississippi, we would be depending on someone else's going in and doing these, resolving these problems right where you have.
I've keyed it out using all the characters I have available that I'm confident of, and I still have a list of five species, so if that were true and it's going to be dependent on the specimen you have and things like that, you would probably want and to develop more characters that are more specific as in the eastern guy, there's tons of characters that this species versus that species, and it just goes through a an extensive usually list of characters, some subtle, some not.

David Cappaert (Guest) 15:14
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 15:33
For differentiating these two almost exactly the same specimens, and so that that's the part that's missing from Oregon, and also just vetting like we did all the Western stuff in a few days, so mistakes were made for sure.

David Cappaert (Guest) 15:42
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 15:50
So that's the thing.

David Cappaert (Guest) 15:51
Right.

Droege, Sam 15:52
Is that having you or someone else go through and taking known specimens and, you know, checking out the key for the West, for the western specimens and also then developing these updated characters where you're separating groups or pairs is what's needed to make it truly high functioning in Oregon.

David Cappaert (Guest) 16:15
Right at.
And just to underscore that, so if I use the has menu for andrina, the very first detailed comparisons of similar species comes at the front, right?
So this is what we don't have for the West and and as you say somebody, it would be super helpful if someone went through this.

Droege, Sam 16:31
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 16:38
So if I get here it says super similar species.
Ohh good.
OK, maybe in discover life I'm gonna hit both of these species with every character I can throw in there.
And now I know a very detailed set of things that differentiate these two similar species.
So that's a step that, as you say in the East, you've got it in the West, you don't.
So that's an issue.

Droege, Sam 17:03
Great.

David Cappaert (Guest) 17:04
So.
So I wanna take it slightly different tack now.
So let's say we've done a pretty good job in discover life last week when we got to the end point, we had three possibles.

Droege, Sam 17:08
OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 17:15
Today I had seven.
We haven't completely differentiated what this thing is.
So another approach and this is kind of as far as I know, special for andrina is that if you want to go to the literature to the papers that were written describing all these species, the there is no paper that's endrina of North America.
There is a a paper.
There is a publication from you know decades ago for the SIM andrino or for the track ingerina or for the et cetera for the subgenera, which is about 50 in the US, so darn it, to go deep, you must figure out subgenus and one way that I do that is with.
Umm ohh yes. Yes.

Droege, Sam 18:04
Are we back up real quick so we don't lose this next shot? Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 18:07
Back up.
Yes, you wanna.
You wanna see the specimens?

Droege, Sam 18:11
Yeah.
Can we?
So this person was wondering if this specimen that we were talking about that we're just switching the bidentate and marginate, what are we gonna call that?
Is this fast to make weekly, clearly weekly?
This person was like, maybe not.
I wouldn't select that you mean.

David Cappaert (Guest) 18:26
Yeah, well.

Droege, Sam 18:27
What?
What?
What the label process be?
Yeah.
What would we be scoring that for?
What?
How do we how do we do that?
What's that?
Yeah, I I'll tell you what I would do.
I would have called it by dente or emarginate, so I would scored it for both OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 18:42
Yes, and I agree with that.
I would call it either definitely a marginal or by dente, and what I just pointed out a minute ago was that in the Discover life key, if I call it definitely a marginate rather than weakly, I will end up excluding angustata ASADA.
And I'm gonna make the case in a minute that I think actually, that it is angusta Charsadda.

Droege, Sam 19:07
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 19:07
And so my path to doing that is going to be going to to this key.
I'll go to the blank one here O just that by way of introduction, this is a key that I made and I didn't make it on the basis of some deep understanding of andrina.
I'm just like, you know, many people are.
I'm not as true expert.
I'm trying to get there.
I'm still puzzled about a lot of things, so this key is based not on my calls, but it's based on every trait that has been entered into discover life and to.

Droege, Sam 19:41
We're not.
We're not seeing the key.

David Cappaert (Guest) 19:44
Oh, I'm sorry.

Droege, Sam 19:44
Yes, we are.

David Cappaert (Guest) 19:44
You're not right here.

Droege, Sam 19:46
Yep, I don't see it.

David Cappaert (Guest) 19:46
You don't see a big picture of a bee.

Droege, Sam 19:49
I I I don't see I see the bidentate.

David Cappaert (Guest) 19:49
No one.

Droege, Sam 19:54
They're like, are you seeing something different, Claire?
There it is.
And now ohh, now we see it.
OK, you're on the Wi-Fi, yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 19:58
OK.
Yeah. Sorry.
Yeah, there's a delay.
There's a delay.
OK, so this this is my key to the endrina subgenera of the Pacific Northwest and I basically took the trade information associated with everything called a particular subgenus in discover life.

Droege, Sam 20:02
Nope.

David Cappaert (Guest) 20:16
So I selected for let's say SIM andrina and there's this a number of species in discover life.
And I said, what are the whole range of traits that occur for any of the simants arena that are seen in the Pacific Northwest?
And I then looked also at the literature and said what is what is the original author and usually it's Laberge who's like the king.
Historically, of all this, Andrea and stuff and or coauthors.
And so I looked at his description, and I crunched all that stuff and I put it into a key.
So this is my system for for trying to get to subgenus and one of the advantages of the key is it's only valid for the Pacific Northwest, which means that I only have to consider 20 some subgenre rather than 50.
So if we don't have it, I don't contaminate my key with a bunch of extraneous possibilities that just won't occur here.
So there's one great thing you can do with.
The key is if you go regional then you eliminate a lot of effort you'd spend looking for things that are not likely or possible.
So the way this key works and try to make it as big as I can, it's just kind of like a discover life.
Uh, so you just make choices and in this one I start out with what I call it.
Easy calls.
So my specimen has a pale thorax, hair color, and then my list sorts over here with all the possible sub genera and the orange at the bottom.
These are things that don't match that character.
So that doesn't help me a huge amount.
This won't help me too much either, so I say the thorax is not metallic.
Basically that it's dark brown or black if I say complete corbicula.
Now I've sort of cut this down to 7 out of the 20 some, so I'm getting a little bit of clarity about at least what are all the sub genre that I can exclude as possible and if I continue to work through this for the same specimen, we've looked at the same characters that we entered into discover life.
I can end up here and it's the print is very small, so it's going to be very hard to make sense out of this, but I end up if I enter all mostly the easy things that my specimen is the most likely to be endrina or SIM andrina, and then it's totally unlikely to be calendaring it in the middle of the pack, year or melongena it.
These orange circles say it's not a match on those traits, so I had to use a lot of traits, but I got down to these two and there are I could continue to go with this and maybe I would be able to say for sure which of those two top candidates andrina or Simm andrina it might be, but I don't wanna fool with this key a lot more.
The only thing I'll say before I leave this key is that one of the advantages is rather than giving you an unambiguous answer because it's very hard, these things are not all phylogenetically true.
So there's a lot of cross in the characters, but it does give you if I go back to just from the start, it tells me and we talked about this a little bit last week.
If I start out with umm let's say a trait that is a bit unusual, so I say it's metallic.
Well, I can instantly sort to these five these five subgenera.
So it really helps me discriminate.
And the minute I do this, I start to realize ohh that's a great character because it really it really cuts things down.
Or if I take another somewhat unusual case of a short Arvind in the wing again, I can exclude a lot of the possible subgenera.
And so this is just like with discover life, you fool around with it and you get a sense of what's powerful and what's in it.
Really not super helpful because everybody seems to have that.
So I'm gonna tell you that I played with this enough to say I'm pretty sure that this is this is SIM andrina.
And so once you know that it's Simon Andrina.
You can go to.
There would get my things open here.
Umm.
And again, I'll have trouble with the size of things.
OK, let me make this bigger.
So from come on here.
I'll just make it monstrous if I can.
There we go. A.
Let's see.
OK, it changed pages so so I'm going to the liberge key for Simon Andrina and I'm waiting for it to.
I don't want these knowledgement.
This full screen display edit seems to take too long to load. Uh.

Droege, Sam 25:30
Well, while David that's happening, let me just add in that at the end of the process, you will have a name that you have confidence, not confidence, could be whatever it is.

David Cappaert (Guest) 25:33
Great.

Droege, Sam 25:43
The gold standard would then be going to museum and comparing it directly, like pulling out the drawer, pulling out the tray with whatever this species is taking over to your microscope, taking your specimen, and going back forth back forth.
Sort of looking at whether it matches and if it doesn't then you might have to go back to the drawing board and that we all do that right?

David Cappaert (Guest) 26:02
Umm.

Droege, Sam 26:07
So that's still the gold standard, the semi gold standard will be there's information like pictures, discover life has some.
David's been adding others.
Umm.
Other people's notes looking at the species descriptions and things like that to see if you have a match.
So there is still just because you keyed something out should not be considered the last step.

David Cappaert (Guest) 26:34
Right.
Unfortunately, we wish so.

Droege, Sam 26:37
Mm-hmm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 26:38
So my my track today has been we looked at discover life.
We did our best to winnow down to a fairly small set of possibilities.
I use my own subgenus key to get a feel for what's like what's the subgenus likely to be, and so semendria is a pretty good match.
So now I'm going to the primary literature to get the key to North American females of subgenus Siman, Drina and walking through this you know we don't need to really drill down on everything, but I'm going.
Here's a couple of two, and the question is, are the clypeal hairs all Plumas or are they?
Uh, some of them.
Simple and so if we look at our specimen again.
Let me see it.
I gotta face here somewhere.
It's a little hard to see for sure here, but umm, these hairs are plumose plumose across the board.
And if you, you could actually see this better through a microscope.
But this this suggests they're pretty fuzzy, so I'm going to say that is how I would call that particular couplet.
So if I peel hairs all highly plumosus and I go to four hind, tibial scope, will hair short.
There I have a teeny bit of trouble because you sort of need the comparison.
Go back to here and.
Here you can kind of see the.
Click the the tibial hairs and these don't look short short, but we can look in a minute at some other SIM endrina and see some that have much longer hairs.
But this is tough because what the heck is short and a lot of times, of course cheese will say that it's the length of the antenna.
Flagellum.
Number one, or they'll compare it to the oh seller diameter, or some other such thing, which is helpful.
It's much better than short or long.
What would be super helpful in my view would be show me a picture of what you mean by short and what you mean by long.
So that would be the Holy Grail for keys to to to make it that explicit because it's a little easier to interpret.
But I'm gonna call this short for, you know, and I can defend that if I need to, on.
And so then I go to couplet 5 and couplet 5 asked me whether the facial phobia are broad above.
And whether they're close to the folk, to the whether the fovea are close to the ocellus, are they less than about half an ocellar diameter, and in my specimen they're clearly more than that?
So just to keep things rock solid here on see what am I looking for?
Oh yes, it's an in the first picture.
This distance?
Here's an ocellar diameter in the upper corner here, and then the distance here to the beginning of the phobia.
It's more than one.
Is clearly more than one, and that's one that I think discovered life has scored incorrectly.
So if I go back now to.
This one so is the facial phobia narrower than the above and separated from ladder or Celis by one or more or seller diameters?
And I've said definitely more than one.
So I'm gonna go on to six.
We looked at the clypeus and the choice in #6 for clypeus of Dold.
Finally, chagrined or tessellate is definitely a fit.
It's not shiny, so it's not.
Not Wheeler eye femine gone to 7 and I'm almost getting to the end of this.
So you may recall that we also took a look at the vertex length.
So how far from the ocellus the lateral ocellus to the back of the head?
And I had calculated from the photo for mine that it was 1.3 of stellar diameters for the vertex length, so that would get me to Angusta Charsadda.
So that would that.
And then the other thing I can do if I want to, I should want to do as Sam says, if I could go see her actual angusta Charsadda, that would be fantastic.
But you're sort of unlikely to have that available to you.
I I don't.
So then you can go in this key if you want to.
You can go to on any particular species, so this one is for lessonii and I can see some of its host associations and get a very detailed diagnosis.
So now I can start to look at those things that are in the eastern key, like those fine distinctions between similar species.
I I assume that for the eastern key somebody looked at this Laberge stuff as well as a bunch of specimens and they decided which of these things to pull out as bonus details that help you differentiate the similar species.
It's these things are not in the key.
They're not in any key except for the Laberge key, and the details are, you know, it's you're gonna know right away that if the length is 7 to 9 millimeters for lessonii, and if you're just 13, you can probably exclude it.
So those are the steps and and the discouraging thing to say about this is it takes forever and it takes me not only takes me forever, but also I often I'm not quite sure at the end of it in my particular case, I I am pretty sure that my specimen is angustata ASADA, and partly because I've looked at other specimens that were called that partly because I looked at every possibility of alternates that are close.
There are similar SIM andrias.
OK, so here's mine which I'm calling in guisada and then.
Here is another SIM endrina.
This one is pensilis.
It's not a great photo, but look at the front of the face here.
You remember in the key we just looked at one of the couplets was is the clypeal or the clypeal hairs all plumose or they're simple hairs here and you can see above the clypeus and the and the top of the head.
These are pretty plumose and down here these are pretty darn simple, right?
There's there's no fuzziness to these hair, so that would be an you could exclude if mine had simple hairs, I would say can't be angustata asada.
But in this case, I'd say, Yep, I buy it.
So then, here's the here's another one of the same pins.
Silus umm.
Here's the face of penicillus.
You'll see this one has a an entire if you look right at the bottom of the five piece here, it has an entire label process, so it's smoothly curved.
It doesn't have bidentate or an E margination, so that looks like a difference.
Do we know how variable that character is?
I don't.
So is it a rock solid thing?
I don't know other features of this.
If you look at this, pencil's are quite similar to the angusta Charsadda.
The distance of the lateral cellus the relatively rough clypeus, et cetera.
So it helps to be having another thing to look at and say ohh good, my specimen is not this one.
Here again you can see these simple hairs on the clypeus.
They're not fuzzy at all.
And yeah, this is a close up the same thing.
This is also pensilis another SIM endrina and this one has the the characteristic cuneate.
Uh. Tibia.
So narrow at the beginning here and very wide at the end, and that's a fairly strong character in terms of subgenus.
It helps you narrow pretty, pretty quickly.

Droege, Sam 35:35
Here's a I was looking at that picture.

David Cappaert (Guest) 35:36
Yes, Sir.

Droege, Sam 35:37
Here's a a thing to note, if at the let's go back to the the tibial character, if you look in the center of the, the one that's the flat face facing us center of that segment, those hairs are simple.
But if you scan through the upper edge, I believe you'll see that they're plumose, right?
So you have to.
This is just, I'm just pointing things out.
That and when you're looking at keys, sometimes when they talk about the hairs on the on the tibia, it's really talking about the hairs in the center of the plate.
And sometimes they mentioned, sometimes they don't mention that there's a fringe of plumose hairs along, sometimes both of the sides.
I think there you might see a couple plumose hairs below, but it looks to me like the entire interior is simple and that's what probably the key is focusing on.

David Cappaert (Guest) 36:38
Right.
And one thing you're pointing out, Sam, is that.
Umm, This is why you have to have a big class is because this kind of detail trying to get clear what these things mean it it's hard to write a key that that accommodates it and you almost have to talk to it or know somebody or look at a bunch of specimens to finally figure that out so that that keeps happening for me.

Droege, Sam 37:01
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 37:03
So yeah, I love your class.

Droege, Sam 37:04
Yeah, over.

David Cappaert (Guest) 37:05
Here is another go ahead.

Droege, Sam 37:07
A listen, this other sort of notion of how do you?
Work with bees and become a expert in develop a good eye for these things.
So what we're hearing from you, David, is classical, right?
Like I have keyed these things out, but I'm a little.
I'm not a I'm like I'm not rock solid like I could be convinced that maybe I took a left turn or something because I'm not able to see those specimens or things like that.

David Cappaert (Guest) 37:36
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 37:36
Over time, you'll you're going to build up your own collection, and so all your polyphonia are gonna go into a box, and then all of a sudden you'll be like, they're all in a box, but you then go back and look at that box and you're like, hmm, there there is more than one thing in that box.

David Cappaert (Guest) 37:45
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 37:55
And So what could that be?

David Cappaert (Guest) 37:55
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 37:57
And now you then become able to just with your own specimens, to begin the process of differentiating of things because you don't have just one specimen which you key out and then throw into the wilderness, you have a specimen that you keyed out and put into your collection in over time.
You accumulate a volume that you can take to the museum, but again, if you don't have museum, at least you have your boxes of specimens and parsing through all the specimens that you claimed were the same thing you'll find, and we do too, that it's like, ohh this one doesn't belong, you know?

David Cappaert (Guest) 38:40
Uh-huh.

Droege, Sam 38:40
So that's another thing for people to keep in mind.
And that's one of the reasons that we have a huge surplus section instead of just destroying all the specimens that we no longer are using, we want people to take them and use them for their own, you know, creating of collections and also practicing with known specimens, the keys.

David Cappaert (Guest) 39:00
Right.
And and go ahead.
So a couple other things, some some of it to follow up on what you just said, Sam.
If you can't go look at someone's collection and most people simply cannot.
I mean, I'm in Corvallis OR and we have Oregon State University and for me to go look at the specimens and organized state, it takes a lot.
I gotta jump through a lot of hoops.
I've gotta be able to make an appointment to go in there.
There's just a bunch of logistics that make it difficult, and if I live 100 miles away, it would feel much less likely that that would be a resource that I can really exploit.
So one alternative, and I'm gonna make the case that it's very useful with this specimen we're looking at is if there are high quality images in discover life or anywhere else, they can actually be really useful.
And sometimes you really need to see the traits so the whole image doesn't tell you much, but this particular image, this is Elida phobia is another SIM andrina as many of the characters we've already talked about has nearly complete apical bands.
It has a phobia.
That's you can even see the distance between the cells and the phobias relatively long.
It's got a complete corbicula mum.
It's got a bunch of features that you say, Oh yeah, OK, I get a sense now of a simian.
Drina, the other thing I notice in this one is that you remember I sort of.
Choked on the character that said are the tibial hairs long or short?
Well, this is another SIM andrina and this one, they're long.
So it's only by comparison to my putative and gustar SATA that I say ohh OK.
Now I know what they mean by long and the other thing to say about this specimen is that this one, if you're lucky, you go to your local university museum and you find a specimen like this.
And it has a species name and in this case it was determined by Laberge who was the guy who pioneered all of the basic taxonomy of andrina.
So I like to think, OK, this is a solid ID, it's better than mine because he wrote the book on this.
So having specimens like this super useful, you know, so we need more and that's, you know, that's sort of my mission is to try to try to add some of those.
On this is another.
See mandarina.
It's got a lot of the similar.

Droege, Sam 41:39
Let me it, Tanya.

David Cappaert (Guest) 41:40
Go ahead, Sam.

Droege, Sam 41:42
That key about the legs of being short versus long, but it also had added short and simple, long and plumose.
So you have which is a good thing about keys is that you have extra information that can help like that.

David Cappaert (Guest) 41:52
Right.

Droege, Sam 42:00
I can see it's plumose on the edges like the other one was too right?

David Cappaert (Guest) 42:04
Right.

Droege, Sam 42:04
But I can't quite tell because of the all the pollen in there, but it probably.
I'll just say it probably is plumose in the middle, but this the sort of the the clarity of reading closely the characters and not quickly and it, you know, like it's not reading a book where you just sort of your mind puts things together.

David Cappaert (Guest) 42:12
Umm.

Droege, Sam 42:25
It's like they wrote things very specifically to for very specific reasons.

David Cappaert (Guest) 42:30
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 42:30
Is an important approach.

David Cappaert (Guest) 42:34
Yeah, yeah, I think I just have a couple other Simmons arenas and again like this, it's super helpful again to have one at Liberge determined the way like in 1963.
And so I'm going to consider this a, you know, a a standard that I can compare to.
So I can look at features on this one and look for the differences that are.
Yeah.
Amongst this immagina represented by that one, there's a dorsal view of it.

Droege, Sam 42:57
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 43:01
Is there anything that stands out here?
Umm.
Hard to tell.
It's not a super good image, so yeah, I don't.
You can see this one though here at the bottom, long hairs, and maybe these central hairs are pulling most.
It's a little hard to tell for sure and another thing in terms of photography is it would be really nice if whoever photographed this specimen, that being me had also had the chance to take the time and do a really close up picture of this tibia, or even cleaned the tibia.

Droege, Sam 43:20
Mm-hmm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 43:39
I could have brushed those little pollen tears out and positioned it so that you can see those hairs and whether they're plums or not.
I couldn't do at this specimen because I don't clean or touch or mess with something from 1960 that has, you know, huge value of is my own specimen.
I would tear the leg off and shoot it potentially so.
And here is the face of that same ortho carpi.
It has the same very rough clypeus it happens to have an entire.
Labor process, et cetera.
So this not again not a super good image.

Droege, Sam 44:16
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 44:17
So just to summarize a couple things, sort of what I did last week and this week.
Uh.
I consider discover life to be a really great tool for winnowing things down.
I don't consider it to be the clear, unambiguous.
Here's your answer, at least for Western Taxi, I am quite sure that it will not differentiate, for example, the different melongena or in this case the the same endrina is the key will not differentiate them until, as Sam says, somebody goes in like based on what we've talked to about today, I could easily already put in something, say saying and gussets arcada versus what's my other one, penicillus.
If it has simple hairs, it's penicillus.
If it has plumose hairs, it's going to be angustata arcada.
So that's just a question of of whenever someone has the time and bothers to do that, that part will be very helpful.
So the other go ahead.

Droege, Sam 45:21
So David, let me so you keep diminishing yourselves as not an expert and you know that is that is becoming less and less apparent over time.
So, but this is true of anybody.
So you may not want to bother with like actually hands on like I now have the keys to the Kingdom and I'm modifying directly the keys.
Which we can set up and do with anybody, but you can always send us this is a problem.

David Cappaert (Guest) 45:49
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 45:54
This is an error like this.
Scoring is wrong.
You have all these specimens that we again where we've haven't seen ever since that one.
One trip that we did and you said I compared, you know, cause you have up there in the upper left hand corner of what's on there.
Now you have characters.
You can click characters and then whatever the specimen, and you can double check them all, or you might find it because your key like this does.

David Cappaert (Guest) 46:16
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 46:19
This is not right, right this I know what this is and it's disappearing off the face, but you could also prophylactically just go through and double check everything, send us things that either need to be changed or bumped, right.

David Cappaert (Guest) 46:24
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 46:33
So you may be it might be recorded as being by dente, but you say, uh.

David Cappaert (Guest) 46:34
Right.

Droege, Sam 46:39
I think I would call that sometimes emarginate so would be like no big deal.
We'll call it emarginate and bidentate.
And so you send those to us, we'll change it.
We do that pretty regularly with other people who find stuff and you say ohh I have a way of differentiating these two which is does not base.

David Cappaert (Guest) 46:49
Umm.

Droege, Sam 46:58
These two do not resolve in discover life.
Again, we could set you up to do that, or you could just send it to us and we'll put that character up and fix it in place.

David Cappaert (Guest) 47:01
Right.

Droege, Sam 47:09
Nothing has to be done completely and particular, just like we work with several of you who are on this list to get like, oh, you know what this species does occur in Wyoming.
So and we don't have a score for Wyoming.

David Cappaert (Guest) 47:23
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 47:25
Please put it on and we're like, fine, we could do that like in an instant.
So I'm just making argument to everybody, not just you.
You're just the example person to, you know, send us these changes and if you wanna do it more directly and really be serious about it, we can scale at lots of different levels.
But if no one says anything, then you and everyone else is, you know, dealing with a less than accurate thing which you know you're talking andrina 550 species Times 100 characters, like something's gonna get messed up in that matrix.
So anyway, my I'm off the soapbox now.

David Cappaert (Guest) 48:09
For sure, at cool and and one other thing to note here.
So Sam just mentioned that I can do a character comparison for different species selected from the from the menu list, and I just did this now on my left I have and gustar sada which is what I think my thing is.
And then the right I have polytopia another SIM.
Andrine I just selected for the phone of it and I would say that these things match almost entirely accept on this character that clearly differentiate.
So politic phobia.
The distance from the ocellus to the fovea more than one.
The key here says that that is polluted phobia and and dussasana.
It's either about one or less.
My specimen would have matched on this character politic phobia so darn either discover life didn't score it right or I misinterpreted something.
I'm positive that because I have a big photograph, I'm positive that it's just one.
Umm, where's my picture of this?

Droege, Sam 49:23
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 49:23
I'm positive in my first picture that.
That's really close up.
This is more than one O I've got an issue with this one, so it's it's always gonna be tough.

Droege, Sam 49:31
Yep.

David Cappaert (Guest) 49:37
I'm gonna stick with Angustata Arcada, partly because I have another person determining it, partly cause I've looked at a bunch of these specimens and thought hard about them, but I rarely get to any 100% about anything.
Uh, so.
So that's sort of.

Droege, Sam 49:54
So the the thing here.
The thing here, David, is we can add that it's greater than one and and and you know what?

David Cappaert (Guest) 50:00
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 50:05
Maybe it's a sport, this ones, a sport.
Maybe it's maybe even a misidentification, but we're not really harming the guide except making it less efficient, right?

David Cappaert (Guest) 50:16
Right, right.

Droege, Sam 50:16
So you, you're keeping it and the guy could just be wrong.
Like it could have been just scored in completely.
And you know what you'd wanna see is like, oh, I got a whole box of angustifolia from, you know, the museum.
And they all are always created than one.
So we need, so therefore we need to add that or it'd be like, well, let's just add the greater than one to discover life and that'll be conservative.

David Cappaert (Guest) 50:33
Umm.

Droege, Sam 50:42
So you sent me an email.

David Cappaert (Guest) 50:43
Right.

Droege, Sam 50:44
We'll make a change.
You're a guy.
You have to kind of figure out where where that is and that's good.

David Cappaert (Guest) 50:50
Yes.

Droege, Sam 50:51
That's good for everybody.

David Cappaert (Guest) 50:52
And I have to say one other sort of revolutionary thing here that that certainly occurs to me.
I'm sure it occurs to many of us the what Laberge said about the species that Andrina is not determined by God.
You know laberge?
He's was an andrina expert in the 60s, seventies into the 80s, but he could got it wrong very easily.
And so he made a differentiation between, let's say, pollute aphobia and a quite similar and gustar sada.
And he decided what the species concept was, but if someone revises andrina this year, they may.
They may very well consolidate this too, or split them, and especially as DNA becomes a bigger tool, somebody may say well, frankly, genetically pollute aphobia and angusta Charsadda, they fall into the same batch.
So give him a new name.
So that's certainly always possible.
I'm sure it happens all the time.
Uh, between me and Laberge, I'm gonna trust Laberge.
But I'm not gonna trust him till the you know, end of time.
So.
So we're getting close to the end.
I wanna just sort of summarize not so much about this specimen.
The images are on the web and you can look at them and play with them.
I wanna certifying on some of the things that Sam said.
Emphasize what somebody who is not a taxonomist can do to get into the game with be taxonomy with all the other people that do it.
And so Sam is right that I'm possibly too self deprecating but it's because it's an uncertain thing you know and I don't have a bunch of people in the cubicle next to me that can confirm everything that I see.
So a pitch that I make to this group is that you don't have to just be an audience for all this taxonomy.
You can be a player even if you are not Jason Gibbs or Thomas on Africa or whoever, right?
I can make a contribution, so my examples are my andrina subgenus key, which where the heck did that go?
No, not there.
So this subgenus Key I did this with existing data.
I did not make interpretations.
I just said I know I need to know subgenus to use the proper literature and there is no tool out there that will nail this for me for Pacific Northwest species.
So I just made it.
I mean, I just said I'll spend 200 hours doing this.
It's not trivial by any means, but I decided this was worth it and at the moment that anybody else says, you know, I think your key is helpful.
Here's some things I would change about it, but I wanna do a version for the state of Florida.
I would happily give anybody all of the underlying data for this.
Everything you might need to know about how to set up this particular kind of key, which is called an identical key and you know you would be 80% of the way compared to where I started towards creating something and this key would work just as this key structure works just as well for a bunch of other things.
And anytime anybody says, yeah, I wanna spend 200 hours drilling down into some are, you know, our cane details about attacks on, I'll help you do it.
So this is one thing that someone like me can do.
The other thing I can do is this andrina guide.
This is just taking a bunch of fancy pictures and thinking really hard about it and being ready for someone like Sam or Claire or anybody else to say hey, I don't think you quite got that right.
And then I'll fix it, but I would love to see the same kind of walk through of the discover life characters for osmia or for whatever other tax on, because for me, the use of this is I can use more words than fit into the discovered life key.
I can have details here and I can also have giant blowups which is harder to do and discover life.
So this I personally like to see a picture as big as my computer screen to really be able to be clear about what this thing is showing.
So that's anybody could do this type of work and I would give you also on let me just find one other thing that's not there.
Yeah, here I use the same structure for the.
The thing I just showed you for the andrina guide to discover life, to use it for my own stuff, and probably I have the same problem with tons of other people do, which is how do you share stuff?
How do you put things out on the Internet in such a way that people can interact with them, respond to them, learn from them, challenge you, et cetera?
So I used that same structure.
Right now I'm interested in all of the things that are associated with an endangered species here, a Lupin called Kinko's, Lupin.
And so these are all the things that I've been seeing on looping.
And so if I want to talk to somebody else about this project, I can either give them, I will give them a list of all the taxes that we observe, but I love to give them a link to a page that shows them these things in detail.
So that's a tool I would give anybody the the HTML to use the same sort of format.
The blowup stuff is great.
That one was a mistake.
There's mistakes for sure, but this is the same specimen we've been talking about.
Or is it a different one?
This is a second one that I saw more recently, so I've seen these occur in the same site, so this is another thing you can do and then I touched a little bit on this glossary thing.
OI have this and you have the link for it and the alphabetical list of all the things that that I feel like I need to understand better to interact with keys and it has the same giant pictures and umm anybody else could have done this if they wanted to spend.
I'm gonna say 400 hours.
Just walking through Google searches and asking other people and taking a picture that's in a crude line drawing and redrawing it and adding colors and measurements and things like that.
It's not trivial to spend the time on it, but it's the kind of thing that people can do.
And if you don't have 500 hours to spend doing this kind of thing, anybody who wants to spend 50 hours more with me doing this stuff can be a coauthor.
You know, I I don't feel any sense of wanting to own all this.
I just want it out there, so that's some of my pitch for you know how to be involved in a taxonomy space and not to be afraid of.
You know what?
What you commit, like the naivete that you might come into with it and I have to also say as part of my pitch for being a tax anarchist, which is a wonderful descriptor.

Droege, Sam 58:27
Well.

David Cappaert (Guest) 58:30
I also have to say that this class and Sam and Claire very definitely are the kind of people that make this doable for me.
So a lot of the images I have Sam mentioned that you'll send specimens out for people to look at.
You don't throw them away.
You give me your junk.
I've looked at a lot of the so-called junk that's full of great traits.
They came from the east and it was probably not super hard for Clara to put those things in a box and send it to me because she knew that if she does that, I will spend endless hours photographing the tiny details of it.
It's a total win win where I feel empowered to be participating in this.
I get material that I otherwise never would have, and hopefully I throw some contributions in that eventually link to discover life or under score.
What?
Discover life how that keyworks, et cetera, et cetera.
So that's my big pitch.
So any questions or feedback or ideas about how useful this might be or what I should be doing next? Or?

Droege, Sam 59:40
I totally invite people to unmute, umm, the question in the chat about naming and how how that happens, but nothing yet about the guys.
So open the mics or chat.

David Cappaert (Guest) 59:52
Sure.

Droege, Sam 59:56
OK good.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:00:02
Oh, there is.
There you are, OK.
And of course, I'm always happy to get emails from anybody, anytime.
And I'm I'm always looking for collaborators and ideas about how I should spend my time, because I the other thing I have to say about this when I toss out that I spent $400.00 doing something is there's two reasons why I can do that, and most people can't.
One is I'm retired and two, like many people who are in this business, I'm completely obsessed.
It's what I want to do is stay up late and stare at be parts.
Some people get that most people don't general public, but uh, it's not for everybody, of course.

Droege, Sam 1:00:49
Who's working on Andrina right now?
Anybody have a batch want to bring their pictures in?
Will says he has the box of Endrina that he's gonna run through David's key over the next couple weeks.
Well, where are you from?

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:01:11
This is my Oregon.

Droege, Sam 1:01:13
I thought so.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:01:14
Pretty sure. Yeah.
Yeah.
And and and will is a very I want will to do that because I'm sure he'll come back at me with, I think.

Droege, Sam 1:01:18
Yeah.
Washington.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:01:23
Ohh, OK.
Yes, Pacific Northwest and and I'm sure Will will we can't write this, we'll we'll come up with stuff that that I've missed or that I should add.

Droege, Sam 1:01:26
Same thing.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:01:33
So that's super valuable to me for other people to to look at these things.

Droege, Sam 1:01:40
Their specimen.
All right, Eric, still on.
I have not done your andrina yet, because I knew that we were about to start andrina and this will be helpful.
So those are from South Dakota.
We have than some USDA's.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:01:59
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 1:02:01
Yeah.
And David, I shared your glossary on Facebook.
And did you get any feedback from anybody on it?
I saw a lot of positives from, you know, on the Facebook side, but is anyone interested in expanding it or converting it to Spanish or, you know, check with some luck in?

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:14
Yeah.
Ohh yeah, I would I would convert to Spanish.
I'm not bad at Spanish.
The thing to say about that's in two things.
One is, uh, you're you are very powerful in the taxonomy world in that this glossary, which I've been, I called it a draft and I'm sort of picking away at it over time.
And I was very shy about sharing it and Sam encouraged me to put it on the be monitoring lists or.
And then you did it on Facebook.
So I went from zero to five hits over a long period of time to 150 to 750.

Droege, Sam 1:02:55
Whoa.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:55
So super helpful, because if I don't get exposure, you know I want exposure.

Droege, Sam 1:03:01
Great.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:03:02
So people either can say ohh I'm sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree.
This is just not interesting, but if it is and I do think it fits a niche, I need to have a bunch of eyes on it.
The other thing to say about that is it's very hard.
As you all know, to get.
Feedback that involves effort on the part of somebody else because everybody is overcommitted.
Everybody is deep into their own rabbit hole and for someone to just sort of walk through and say here's what I want you to know about flagello mirrors versus flagella.
It's very hard to get that sort of feedback.
So one that I would call out in a big way is Lawrence Packer gave me a message.
Lawrence is, you know, got huge credibility.

Droege, Sam 1:03:44
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:03:47
He's a very kind person and he gave me a bunch of here's my sense of what these things mean and, you know, good job, blah, blah, blah.
But it doesn't help me very much for people to say.
Ohh that's great.
I'm really glad you're doing it.
I mean, I like that, but it's much more useful to know.
What do I need to tweak?
How can I make it better so there's all of that?
So that's yeah, that's.
Ohh and the other thing that Lawrence and I discussed a little bit is and sorry, this is too much of a segue to to nowhere.
But on being monitoring, you know, I sort of ignited this discussion about what colors mean when we use terms like, oh, gracious and ferruginous and so on.
And there's a million different opinions and I suggested to to Lawrence.
I really would love for there to be a general discussion of what surface sculpture terms mean, and Lawrence looked at my stuff and he said, you know, I think maybe I've been using chagrined, wrong forever.
Now I'm not someone to tell that Laurence Packer that he doesn't know what the green is.
He doesn't think he knows for sure what it means, because there's no rigorous definition of it and people use it in different ways.
So for me, something like this glossary or some similar effort that says hold on all you Wizards of taxonomy.
If we were starting from scratch right now, we would probably all say let's try to be clear about what parallel raised impressions it should be called striate versus rugose.
What's the difference?
Et cetera.
And that's being a taxi anarchist at the end of it all, I think that this is the kind of thing we really need to do is to say we we can own this stuff and we can try to say what works and doesn't work for us.
The majority of people who are not super duper experts, but we need to be able to identify our stuff.
So let's try to just be not be shy about saying why it's hard for us and what tools we need to make it easier.
So that's my soapbox.

Droege, Sam 1:06:04
They're so clean today.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:05
So.

Droege, Sam 1:06:09
Cool.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:11
Alright.

Droege, Sam 1:06:12
OK.
Thanks David.
Thanks, David.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:14
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:06:14
I think.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:14
No, it's a huge pleasure.

Droege, Sam 1:06:17
I think next time we'll probably start working in through the bees subgenera by subgenera and always invite more people to bring photos like David has worked through individuals, maybe at the end of each gene.
The subgenus section.
David, if you want to have, like, another mystery of that subgenus that we could practice on, that would be fun.
We can coordinate, umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:41
I I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't mind.

Droege, Sam 1:06:43
Or maybe I can take pictures of Eric's.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:46
Yeah, I don't mind shooting the heck out of a bead, because for me it's it's very useful to see giant, you know, close up.
So yeah, if that's useful, of course I could if I have that subgenus, I'd be glad to develop it.

Droege, Sam 1:06:58
Yay.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:59
All right.

Droege, Sam 1:07:01
You all next week.
Thank you, David.
Alright.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:07:04
Yeah, good.

Droege, Sam 1:07:04
Thanks David.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:07:05
Later, you bet. Bye.

Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription