Learn to ID Bees-20240515_130044-Meeting Recording

May 15, 2024, 5:00PM

1h 23m 33s

Droege, Sam 0:05
We're doing something different for a day transitioning.
Yeah.
Into something new?
Yeah.
So we have David Kappert here and he has as many people know, been working a lot on glossaries, ID characteristics and umm, I alternative identification tools of many kind.
But from an Oregonian perspective and well, actually with global implications.
So today, we're gonna take a B.
If David, correct me if I'm wrong cuz I'm gonna turn it over to you in a second today.
We're gonna take a bee.
That David has that he does not know what it is, and neither do I.
And neither does Claire, and we're going to use it as a vehicle to walk through the Endrina guide and see what we come up with and see if we, in the end, feel comfortable with the ID or do we run into some of the problems that we might have in a guide that is only nominally.
Umm A scored for Western species and then we will make assignments to people like David and other folks to fix that.
Did you get that part, David? Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:23
Sounds good.
Yeah, indeed I did.
Yes, I'm thinking all the time about that.

Droege, Sam 1:28
So I'll give just some background.
A long time ago lay a Larkin myself and and some folks at the Logan B Lab went to the Logan B Labs collection and we scored all the endrina we could get our hands on at the Logan Lab, which is most of them.
Let's say for the east and that's about 500 species, and we pulled at least one all nighter and we just plowed through them.
So in the for the eastern species, we had already done that and we had also made an effort to resolve, let's call it close species pairs.
And also it's used all the time so we were able to catch some of the needs to expand the scoring or errors were caught and those kinds of things.
So in the east, the Andrina guide is fairly robust, always in need of additional help, but recall that each species is scored for in theory would be scored for every character.
So you have both many chances to learn the identification, but you also from a guy preparation point of view you have many chances to mess up like you could.
I'll put in the wrong character or something, and so, with those caveats, we're going to learn how well the guy performs for one andrina species.
And David has a lovely string of photographs that we can use.
And then he also has a specimen.
So I'm going to now turn it over if this is OK for you.
David, 2 David and let him talk through what he's been thinking about and doing and then eventually we will go to identification tools to try and figure out the species.

David Cappaert (Guest) 3:01
Yes indeed.

Droege, Sam 3:14
And if people like this, we can do this with other people specimens and it doesn't have to be from Oregon or anything like that.

David Cappaert (Guest) 3:19
Right.

Droege, Sam 3:22
But I think what we will require is that you have the specimen at minimum and that they're you have taken a lot of photographs of different angles and characters, and then we'll together as a class, we'll walk through and that's going to be a good way to talk through the the philosophy philosophy of getting an ID on this and see what happens.
OK, David, go.

David Cappaert (Guest) 3:47
Cool.
OK.
Am I already sharing?

Droege, Sam 3:50
Yes, sharing your window but not a specific screen.

David Cappaert (Guest) 3:50
Good. OK.
Yes, I'm gonna go to this.

Droege, Sam 3:53
Yeah, you don't have anything? Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 3:55
Yeah.
There you go.
OK, so a little bit more background on one of my like agenda items here.
Beneath the whole, you know, question of Andrina specifically is many of you probably know that that I am super interested in all this.
Be taxonomy.
I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours and I consider myself really quite a bit of an amateur.
Still, at this point, so I don't presume to have like the technical overview, I don't have a zillion specimens to work with.
Uh, I don't have anybody like Sam or Claire to very often say, yeah, come and look at this thing and tell me what the heck it means.
So I'm sort of out here in the dark, and nonetheless I'm going to try to show you with a couple of things that I've done.
I think I can contribute to the field and you know one of the one of the limitations is I need feedback and I'm gonna solicit that from this group, but I want to claim humbly, that somebody who's not a card carrying taxonomist can actually chip away at all this stuff and contribute something and learn a lot in the process.
I've certainly done that OO 1st.
I'm going to show you this this guide that I made which is a guide to the guide, the Discover Life Guide, and I made this because even though there are pictures, even though the text is in generally pretty plain English in the in the Discover Life guide I I I wasn't nailing the characters.
There wasn't 100% sure, so I had to look at a lot of things and one of the frustrations for me with discovered life is that the pictures in the format of the page that are kind of small and they're hard to blow up.
And I like giant pictures.
And so I'm using a bunch of those here and this document.
The ANDRINA deconstructed is my walkthrough of the characters that I find that I think I can understand and that I think are most useful.
So I'm just going to walk through this for a minute and mention these things, and then we'll look at the specimen and decide how it matches up with characters that that I've zeroed in on here.
So this yes.

Droege, Sam 6:04
David, can you tell people where they can get this guide or find it?

David Cappaert (Guest) 6:10
Well it's it's the link in the email.
OK.

Droege, Sam 6:13
OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 6:14
And and like many of my things, it's just sort of sitting there on a server where I put it, and so there it's not listed on anybody's page as far as I know.
We've certainly talked about, you know, I would, I would love it if there were a link to this on the Discover Life page.
That's something we've talked about doing and I could sprinkle this around the into other places.
You know, if I feel like it's serving a need and you know it's up to y'all see what you think about that.
So right now, go ahead.

Droege, Sam 6:43
Can people can people do that?
Can they take and copy your work or should they just talk to you?

David Cappaert (Guest) 6:50
People can take and copy my work.
I am just this sort of rogue science guy out here.
I I don't work for anyone most of the time I do everything that I do as volunteer and my intention very much like Sam and Claire, is just to to make the world better for people who wanna try to understand bees.
So I I don't, I don't worry about my copyrights on anything anyone can copy and use any piece of anything I make, yeah.

Droege, Sam 7:19
Through your tax are now Chris tax Arnica used.

David Cappaert (Guest) 7:24
Right on, I like that.
OK, I'm gonna use that as my title, so here is my guide and we'll just walk through it kind of quickly.

Droege, Sam 7:27
I've been.

David Cappaert (Guest) 7:33
Umm so #1 vertex.
You have to, in my view, spend a little bit of time looking at vertexes to be clear about how to interpret it, and sometimes it it's really helpful for me to make these close up photographs, because if you try to measure in this case is the vertex is the very back of the head, more than one, less than one or about one ocellar diameter.
So there's the ocellus and I've made a circle that's about that size and you can see that the back of the head here is closer to the ocellus than that ocellar diameter.
So that would be clearly less than one seller diameter, another species clearly more than one, almost two ocellar diameters.
This picture is upside down relative to the previous one, so there's the top of the head, and so that's the vertex.
Is this line and then here's one that's you know where the it's about one.
Oh, so diameter.
So we're gonna look on my mystery specimen at that character.
Uh, there is the the only thing that I know of that we deal with in terms of antenna, at least in discover life or in other key I'll look at is the relative length of F1.
The first flagellar segment compared to F2 and F3 and so here would be and again making photographs is really nice because you can measure like in Photoshop or I can even hold a ruler up to my screen and I can get a very clear sense of exactly how many units this is compared to how many units this is.

Droege, Sam 9:10
Hmm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 9:19
And when you do it with a little tiny bee using a radical, everything shakes every.
It's really hard to get it clear, so I'm not recommending that everybody go out and start focus stacking images of antenna.
It's super time intensive, but it's nice when you have the luxury of being able to do that.
So there's our antenna with andrina phobia, you know, are huge.
There's they're they're character rich and until you get enough specimens, sometimes it's a little tricky to interpret these things, so there will be a color question.
This one it blows up a little bit too big, but is it kinda light?
Where is it light?
Where is it dark?
And a lot of times you shift the specimen and that actually changes.
So sometimes you're lucky and this is very clearly an entirely pale uh phobia.
And it's also you can see here in this corner the fovea is kind of deep.
I don't know whether it's as deep as they get, but there's definitely 3 dimensionality here at this corner, so that's another character in discover life.
Another one will be the relative length of the antenna base.
Here the internal socket to the fovea and this would be a case and the most of the entering have broader fovea than this, at least the ones I see.
So here the antenna sacket is broad and it's much narrower at the same level.
Moving over from there.
So there's those kinds of characters here.
I'm looking at it shallow and a very deep fovea and you can see the colors.
Here are something we can try to interpret and another one that we will look at that's in discover.
Life is how far away is the lateral ocellus from the phobia and this one?
It's very close.
One of seller diameter and you're deeply into the fovea already.
So that's that's a very close one and this one is farther.
That's like probably, you know, seller diameter or a little bit more.
So those are some phobia pieces on the clypeus.

Droege, Sam 11:37
Can I can I interrupt this one second?

David Cappaert (Guest) 11:38
Yeah, go ahead, Sam.
Yeah, please interrupt anytime you want.

Droege, Sam 11:39
So, OK, alright.
So David has mentioned a number of the circumstances where he uses a term like about.
So there's two angles to and about thing.
One is the person who has scored the specimen should have understood that it could be interpreted as.
So let's say if it's about equal, right?
So or it's one it's about one.

David Cappaert (Guest) 12:04
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 12:08
OK, so they should have probably scored it for less than one, one and more than one.
Ditto the person who is using the guide.
If they're in a like, well, that's about 1:00.
If you're using the word about, then you should also score for one less than and greater than.
Sometimes it's like, well, it's one or it could be more.
In other words, you would only score for those two categories.
Is clearly not less that kind of thing.

David Cappaert (Guest) 12:37
Right.

Droege, Sam 12:37
So if you're, it's not a choice that has to be made.
In other words, you it's not a pick one and only one is right.
The power here is to be conservative and so you don't lose a specimen because you made a judgment call and that the person who built the guide maybe didn't include the, you know, the full range because it didn't see them or whatever.
So you wanna bracket any ambiguity and then move on.
And because you can always go back and play like clicking on it, click it off.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:12
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 13:16
See what happens.
But anyway, just in general, several of these times you've heard him say about Ben, you are in a position where you're clicking more than one thing.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:18
Yeah, and.
And the other thing I would add to that, Sam, is that, I mean, I don't know nearly as much about this whole field as you do, but I know for sure that some of the endrina that I see, there's quite a range of characters within a species, which is terrible.

Droege, Sam 13:26
Go ahead.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:42
I I wish they would just conform to being whatever that species is supposed to look like, but things, especially colors and so on are pretty variable with some some species.

Droege, Sam 13:51
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 13:52
So that's another reason to be, you know, broad in what you decide the clypeus and and part again part of the reason why I have these items in my little guide is because these are things that I think are fairly clear.
If you got a big picture and you can look at this, you can interpret it fairly well.
So this would be an example of a clipeus that is entirely rough or dull.
It's, you know, it's gonna soak up the light because it's got lots of micro structure to it.
At the other extreme, this is as shiny as you can get, so that I think that's a track injury in assaria I'm clicking the wrong button, so the in discover life the choices are dull, shiny, or in this case it's shiny.
Sensually, immediately, but it becomes duller around the perimeter.
And so that's a third character trait that you can get.
And the other thing that's in DL and I think this is somewhat variable, but is there a in Ponte band vertically through the center of the clypeus and sometimes it's very discreet and sometimes you know like it gets thinner here and I'm not always sure how to score that again.
And in that case I would file a Sam's advice, and I'd probably score it both ways.
So those are clips things Mailer space is for me super hard until I think really hard about it.
So you wanna say what is the distance between the the base of the mandible and the lower edge of the eye relative to the width of that?
So this one and I'm always ready to be corrected if I'm not doing it right.
I think the width is here and the breath is here and in discover lifeguard it's asking you about the ratio of those things is about, you know, five times longer this way than this way or at an extreme.
This is a very long Mailer space, so the ratio of go ahead Sam.

Droege, Sam 16:00
So I was going to say this probably is something that needs some more clarification for for all of us.
OK, so the width.
So when we talk about the the length, that's pretty clear, but the width is a little ambiguous because if you look at a mandible on one side is on both sides really are what are called condyles.
And these are basically like, let's call them hinge points.
And in the middle of that big bulbous thing is slightly off center.

David Cappaert (Guest) 16:32
Right.

Droege, Sam 16:35
That's a muscle, right?
And so the muscle is contracting to open and relaxing, I suppose.
Maybe there's a counter countervailing muscle underneath there, and they're hinging on those outer things.
So the question is, where do you measure the outer points of the mandible?
And it would, you would think, oh, that's pretty obvious, but the problem is, is that that condyle is sort of a complex thing and it's kind of lumpy and blah, blah blah.
So I'm not gonna say that I have.
So right now you kind of eyeball it and with these malar space measurements are quite over scored.
Let's call it because we're not being precise in our width of the mandible character and so it generally works.
And you're generally what you're doing is pulling out things that have really long mall or spaces from things that are really short and in between ones are not gonna resolve super well.
But the reason I bring this up and this terms of the measurement is has to do with bumblebees.
So there was a really nice paper that Dennis and Joan and several other people did on Annelaine on bumblebee characters that ended up having a lot to do with the calculation of the malar space length in bumblebees.

David Cappaert (Guest) 17:42
Hmm.

Droege, Sam 18:03
So to some extent, the longer the malar space, the longer the tongue, right.
So you have more head capsule that can hold the tongue as sort of correlate and you have long term bumblebees and short tongue and the similar kinds of things are probably going on with andrina.
The thing was that there were all these essentially were cultural measurements of Malar spance malar space length to width, but not a lot of really good measuring.
So when they got precise, it turns out it's a really great character and almost every species.
If you measure things correctly, a bumblebee has a very precise set of ratios, but the you have to measure it right?
I'm getting long winded now, but the the the question of that width is some side project that someone should pick up which is measuring it precisely being very clear about where the start and the stop of the width is in relationship to those condyles and then creating what essentially would be a second set of characters that would be the precise maller spacing versus the eyeball, which is what it is now.
More than not.
OK, long winded, but just pointing out a place where more work needs to be done and that the current system is imprecise but useful in a you know you know what long looks like kind of thing.

David Cappaert (Guest) 19:23
You.
Right.

Droege, Sam 19:38
So go ahead.

David Cappaert (Guest) 19:38
And and Sam, I I want, I want to really pile onto to to your long winded digression because I think it's super useful.
This is something that kills those of us who are not specialists.
In particular, tax.
That is exactly what you're saying.
Is where do you measure something?
So this is a bombast and you can look at you wanna be asking it.
You will be asking the key what's the is it longer in this direction than wide?
Like, what's that ratio and exactly what you're saying?
Where in the world do I measure this?
And if I measure long, sorry from here to here.
It's different from measuring from here to here.
Is that at the midpoint is that the longest?
And you know, Ditto sidewise.
This is not entirely clear, but there would be a line here that I might say.
This is the width or I might go all the way over here and this kind of thing.
This is what I think about with this guide that I that I'm making is trying to do that interpretation that isn't gonna be absolutely clear in discover life, where in most keys cause folks don't get into that, and if you don't, you know it's gonna be frustrating because you don't know how to call it.

Droege, Sam 20:54
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 20:55
So yeah, totally agree.
Another item which in my view is fairly easy to see and look at and and assess is.
So here's the clypeus this would be a shiny one in the center and just immediately below the clypeus is the label process and so this would be a label process.
That's fairly long and it is on entire that is the the perimeter of it is either rounded or flat.
There's no indentation here, so that would be an entire and a long labeled process.
This would be a very wide, not very good image, but very wide and short process.
This one would be emarginate, so there's an indentation there.
I this one would be which what would you call the sandwich?
You call this super emarginate or would you call it vidente?

Droege, Sam 21:54
I would call to.
In my mind that's bidentate, but again, if you had a question you would go bidentate or emarginate and click both of them.

David Cappaert (Guest) 21:57
Umm.
Right.
Yes.
And then occasionally, if you are lucky, you run across something like this.
This is a Barbara Labris and I, as far as I know, this is virtually diagnostic of Barbara Labris, unless there's something that's similar to this.
So you want to.

Droege, Sam 22:20
In the east, at least.

David Cappaert (Guest) 22:22
Yeah.
OK.
And well, I don't know of any out here that that look like this.
And you know, if there are, I haven't seen them.

Droege, Sam 22:26
OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 22:27
Umm.
And then I just mentioned here briefly, if you go into the primary literature on andrina, you will see a lot about the labrum and the labrum is immediately beneath the labor process.
The labor process overlays it and here I wanna look at if I look at hold on, it'll take me a second.
Uh.
Return to top.
So I think, yeah, it's gonna be Christa.
Here it is, uh, so.

Droege, Sam 23:06
So, David, what's that resource that you're scrolling, OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 23:07
I'll get there.
Ohh, I'm gonna tell you in just a minute.
I'm gonna tell you so.
So here is a an explanation of the idea of a crysta, which is a Ridgecrest, and it's really important with the andrina keys they often talk about it.
And so here's the label process of an andreina and beneath is this crista or this Ridge that is medial and divides this.
And the keys will also talk about a sulcus, which is sort of a trough that goes transversely across here.
But with Endrina, here is a specimen.
Before I did anything to it.
The labrum here is.
You can't see it for the hairs and so if you wanna spend 20 minutes breaking it off every single hair now you can sort of see and deal with this character.
But so and this is another thing that that probably a lot of other people can identify with.
When you get into a key and there's not a lot of explanation for this, you look and you look and you look and see where is the damn labrum.
You want to think that this process is kind of the labrum, but it's underneath here.
You don't see it.
And so for me at least, someone has to tell me.
No, no.
Take the hairs off and look at this thing.
So anyway.

Droege, Sam 24:22
And also the the mandible often depending on the species can ohh lap over most of the labrum.
So in discover life, we largely ignore.
Well, we include it.
Sometimes it depends because it is useful, but a lot of times you have to have the mandibles open, which is rare to see a lot of Laboral features.
So, you know, in an effective strategy for doing identifications, you're largely going to end up ignoring the labrum.
In most cases, despite the fact that just like genitalia and males, those are sometimes not always though great character places.
But they're difficult to one if it's genitalia to extract.
And two to see if it's a labrum.
Ditto on tongue.
Tongue architecture can be really revealing, but you can essentially never get it.

David Cappaert (Guest) 25:17
Umm.

Droege, Sam 25:21
Went back once it's dried and flipping out everyone's tongue when you are processing specimens takes up a lot of time and is largely unnecessary despite it being a good character.
In other words, you can get to the ID, which is most people's objective without extracting tongues, genitalia and opening mandibles.
But it's done quite a bit, and if you're have a few high dollar specimens, that's what you should do.

David Cappaert (Guest) 25:52
Right.
And actually that segue is pretty good to this next set of of things to consider is the the Darn Pro nodum and and what's called the humoral angle, which is when you look if you take the head off, here's an easy way to look at this.
If you take the head off and you look at the margin of the Pro Nodum which is here, you wanna know whether it's a smooth curve.
Oops, sorry.
Or whether there is a boom boom, a corner, so boom boom, a corner would look like.
Do I have one of those?
Well, this isn't a super good place to see it, but there is more of a angle to this and where it connects to what Sam was just talking about is.
This is a really critical character.
This one is a better example.
I think of the where the angle is, so this is not smooth, it's it's definitely it's almost a right angle, and if in a dichotomous key like the ones that that Mike arduous or uses, this is a pretty important, you know, point in the in the sequence of dichotomous questions.
And the problem is it's number one it takes it least.
It took me quite a while to even understand what the heck it was about and #2 it's very hard to see on a bee that's you haven't prepared to see this because the heads in a way the hairs are in the way.
So I advocate as as I think Sam does, that if you've got spares, break their heads off, it's gonna be the very quickest route to trying to understand this character.
And if you look at it a number of times and eventually looking sort of tangentially from the side, you have a sense of it.
So anyway, that's that's been my experience and I'm not going to go into a lot of detail in the rest of this stuff.
I'd be glad to at any other time, but just to get through them on the skewed them, the Discover Life key will ask you questions about the pits and their density.
So here's pretty close pits.
Here's diffuse, much more much sparser pits.
There's the question of the tessellation or the micro sculpturing on the surface between the pits.
Here in this little blow up you can see these little sort of tile shapes.
This one has a very different arrangement of that smaller sculpturing.
I would call these maybe aerial late, but you know it's it looks very different.
And then here's one that's relatively smooth, and it's basically in punctate immediately.
So these would be very different bees and one other thing, you know, I mentioned, aside from working through a key, I'm not quite to this point, but my guess is that eventually you look at a lot of these and the fact that this tessellation is super different from this microscope. Sure.
Here you will probably eventually sort of incorporate, even though it's not in the key.
A sense of oh, yeah, that's different.
That's a clue I can use.
So go ahead, Sam.

Droege, Sam 29:03
I I'm I just mentioned that area late usually isn't applied to these tessellations and I don't even know the exact definition.
Aerilate usually refers to large open chained networks that usually find on the proposal triangle where the ridges are really well defined and high, and it makes a reticulation or chain and the when you have those fine microstructure things, they sometimes they'll say imbricate.
So instead of being round chains chain like things there fish scale like.
So you could say fish scale, but people again have their their jargon and and something like that is often umm, if you would determine even the terminology is, but it's not the fish scale one and it's usually not.
I don't associate with the term aerilate, but again arelate I don't even know the actual definition.
I pick up terminology just by looking at keys over and over again in my head.
It's a widely spaced set of cells on the proposed gum or elsewhere, where the the height of the topography, let's call it of the surface sculpturing, is quite tall, but needs to be defined.

David Cappaert (Guest) 30:31
Yeah.
And and that's different.
Yeah, it's different than the one that I was just looking at.
And so, Speaking of aerilate and and I think these digressions, I I don't mind if we do a lot of them.

Droege, Sam 30:41
OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 30:42
I I I think it's very helpful.
Sam is admitting, and probably all of us know, that when running to these relatively sort of technical terms, aerilate you wanna know what it means?
And it's not clear what it means.
I just use it in a way that's different from how Sam would use it, and I can guarantee that people who study different tasks I have different ideas about how to use that term.
It may be more popular with some than with others, so now I'm gonna just explain this glossary thing that I'm looking at.
This is another one that you have a link for and we have as inspired by Claire and by Cody.
What's her last name?
Cody.

Maffei, Clare J 31:32
Mathis.

David Cappaert (Guest) 31:33
Yes.
Cody Mathis.
She she initially did a a glossary for for Hymenoptera and we sort of started with that idea and I got all carried away with it because I like to play with pictures and web pages and so the thing I'm looking at here is a glossary and there will there there will be out there.

Droege, Sam 31:50
I didn't realize.

David Cappaert (Guest) 31:53
There's another glossary.
Exotic BID has one.
There's various, you know, things that will be useful for looking up terms, but they mostly do not have a lot of photos and do not have a lot of interpretation.
And so this glossary thing which I'm calling draft, but I've populated it pretty well, I think is intended to try to get at this.
So I have an entry for area late and one place.
This is a very grainy picture, but the only place actually where I know of anybody who has tried to rigorously define these terms is from a 1979 paper on the surface sculpture of ants.
So it's loosely applicable to to bees, but it's it's at least there's a clear definition and photo images of it, and another place.
This is, I think, exactly what Sam is talking about.
Am I right, Sam?
Like aerially.

Droege, Sam 32:51
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

David Cappaert (Guest) 32:53
So that would be appropriate triangle.
And that's definitely used when you talk about a specific codes on what the world needs, and it'll probably be someone else than me on with the world needs is something like this Ant paper.
Here I'll show you that real quickly.
Umm.
If it opens quickly.

Droege, Sam 33:16
I put the link in the chat.

David Cappaert (Guest) 33:18
OK, good.
Yeah, this is worth looking at.
It's not opening for me quickly, so I'll ignore it, but this question of what these terms mean of I'll find another surface sculpture one on so yeah, another good example would be kariny.
OK, so here's here's the simplest really clear picture of a Carina, a Ridge, and with the these green bees.
Some of them have a Ridge that very clearly encompasses the rear face of the propidium, which is what we're looking at.
And here's another example from bid that's really easy when you get to Lazio glass and all of you are pretty familiar with this through what?
What Joel has done in walking carefully through all this stuff.
Now Karina is a kind of hard thing to get a handle on, so there's a little bit of a lateral.
Corina here on a Lazio blossom propidium, so I'm looking at the back of the propidium.
And is there a Carina here?
No, there's not.
You have to be able to figure that out here is very clear case of Corona laterally, Corina obliquely, or across the top of this, and this.
Karina is interrupted in the center, so that's a really solid, easy to use character, but it's not always as straightforward as that.
So this glossary is intended, and ideally it's iterative and other people get back to me and say, you know, wait a minute.
I don't think this works for this other group of bees or whatever, but I'd like to get some sense of how we standardize or how you variously interpret things like color, things like surface sculpture on what Sam was saying about Mailer space.
It would be wonderful if we were able to have a little bit of detail like in a glossary like this saying when we're talking bombast, this is what we mean when we're talking andrina.
This is what we mean in a precise way, so this is just little pitch for this glossary thing.
Uh, so back to these things that we're going to sort of not say.
I'm not gonna say I think I'm not gonna say more about these things.
Cause I'll look at the specimen and I will run out of time, but that's fine.
Umm.
So if I look at this special.
Ohh yeah, it's in light room.
Umm, so here's the here's the mystery bee that I wanna consider.
So this one I collected locally here in Corvallis on the 15th of March pretty early and we're just gonna look at this quickly and sort of summarize what are the features that you can see and how they would be scored in discover life.
So from a lateral view, go ahead, Sam.

Droege, Sam 36:13
Can I just add, I just interrupt so in thinking about a big group like this, when you look at a specimen after, particularly after you've had a little bit of experience, you're looking for things that relatively few species have.
So that's you know, because I'm some of these characters, like they all have something are gonna be scored for having it or a big chunk of them.
You want things that will split out a huge number of specimens because it's a relatively rare one, so over time you'll just do a little inspection and say, oh, look at this one look at how wide that tibia is.
That something that will help me ID this and get rid of a bunch of species or whatever else is.
It is gonna jump out, so go ahead.

David Cappaert (Guest) 37:02
Right, right.
No, and that's good, Sam.
I think the tricky thing is that you don't really know these things until you have a fair amount of experience.
But if you look, it takes a second to look at the wing of an andrina, and I can show you the examples, but you can quickly if it has two sub marginal cells golden, you're really limiting your choices if it has metallic integument, bluish greenish that also limits it quite a bit.

Droege, Sam 37:09
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 37:28
So those are really powerful characters for for, you know, cutting down the choices.
So this one here's here's what I see in this picture.
This looks to me, I would say a shortish male or space.
I mean I can't get super close here, but let's say that's a shortish Mailer.
Space.
I see the corbicula, the thoracic corbicula.
Here is 1 in which there is a fringe of hairs in front here, and if we looked back at that deconstructed guide you'd see an example of an incomplete cubiculum, but this one has a fringe of hairs anteriorly.

Droege, Sam 38:09
Now you mean you mean complete?

David Cappaert (Guest) 38:12
Complete yes, this one is a complete.

Droege, Sam 38:14
Right.

David Cappaert (Guest) 38:15
So it has the curtain of Harris here, and if we brush these aside and looked underneath, we would see a bear interior.
So this would be a complete cubiculum it has a trochanteric all flocculus it's a little hard to see with this image, but there would be some curly hairs here on the trochanter.
So if you had a specimen, you could probably view it a little bit more successfully.
It has.
We can see the top view in a second, but it has very definite apical hair bands and here on T2 the hair band you'll see in the next picture is interrupted medially, but lots of andrina don't have such clean hair bands or clearly defined hair bands as this one.
So that's a clue.
It has the side view.
I'm not looking at this quite right, but the shape of this tibia is.
I think I'm gonna call it Q Uniate.
That is, it's wider here than it is basically, so it kind of, you know, it's a little bit triangular and to pick up another couple characters dorsally.
I'm gonna consider.
Two is where a lot of the discussion ends up.
Is it punctate?
No, there aren't punctures.
Here is the surface.
Shiny or is it roughened or dull?
And it's definitely very much roughened.
Again, this is the medially interrupted T2 hair band, so that's gonna be a DLC character.
Another one you're not gonna see it super well.
Here is the pygidial processor.
Here plate is what we call it and it will either have a raised internal triangle or it will be flat across and sometimes I believe they're worn and it's a little difficult to tell.
So I don't necessarily put a lot of stock in that.
Then we have the propidium here and this is the triangle and this triangle does not have a bunch of corrugated rough ridgy kind of texture to it.
It's got, if anything, right here at the very front of it, a little sculpturing, but I don't think it has sculpturing.
So that's another important clue.
And that's closer of that.
And then on the head, the characters we can get are very much dull clypeus it doesn't has no injunctive median band.
Umm, we'll look at the at the labor process in a minute.
This one you can see the antenna character we mentioned here is F1 and here is F2F3.
So the question was gonna be, is this distance greater or less than F1 distance?
So they're, you know, close to equal in this case.
So we'd know how to score that, and then the next one I'm looking at the fovea.
And it just like I mentioned earlier that I think it's worth breaking off the heads of some some bees to get a sense of, you know the the humoral angle, the pronotal character, it's worth it to scrape off a bunch of hairs.
So you can clearly see the fovea beneath them.
So there were a whole bunch of hers here that were overlaying the fovea and I teased them off.
So the characters for the fovea are gonna be.
Here's the reference point would be the antenna socket broke the antenna off the top of the clipeus.
Here the fovea is this entire depressed area and one question is how long is the phobia?
And this phobia clearly comes below the antenna socket and pretty much lines up with the top of the clay peas.
So that's tells me how I can score it and discover life.
I'm gonna decide how wide is the clypeus or I'm sorry.
The phobia.
So here's the antenna socket.
Here's the phobia.
It's wider than the antennal socket, and it goes right to the edge.
The top side of the phobia is a little tricky to to make a call on because you can see the hair.
There's not as many hairs in this in this depression, so it's kind of hard, I think, of one other picture here trying to get a sense of is this phobia close to the Rosales?
Is it within one osala or diameter or more or less?
So this looks to me like it's a little more, but you can see later if we get to it, I'm gonna hedge on that.
The other thing I noticed here is this texture on the fronts beneath the our Sally and above the antenna basis, this is I see a lot of irrigation in that in that amongst Andreas and some of them have very much a striate sort of vertical scratches through here and this one does not have that.
But that's not official character.
And then here's the label process.
So laborum here.
Here's overlying it and this shape.
It's a pretty wide label process.
It's definitely either emarginate or by dente.
I guess this is sort of intermediate, so you'd have to call it both ways, but it borders on bidentate I think, and then the vertex, if I measure the vertex of this one again, I love to do it from a photograph, cause it's much easier to get the measurements precisely, but here's the ocellar diameter and then here is behind from the ocellus to the vertex to the very edge of the back of the head.
Is that longer or shorter than the ocellar diameter?
And just like in the case of the Mailer space that we were talking about, a big problem is exactly how do you measure this?
So the acellus itself, the lens occupies this space.
The depression.
With that, it lies in is wider.
The vertex is.
It's got like looking directly down on it.
There's the very back edge right there, and then there's the point at which it starts to roll over to the back edge here and exactly where you put your measurement, either from here or from here is going to make the whole difference between whether it's 10 cell or diameter or more than one.
Or cell or diameter and I I don't know.
I mean, I'm sure there's people who know exactly how to interpret this, but it's the kind of thing that we all would love to have more precision about, I think.
So and then one other character for the same bee.
This mystery we're working on is here's the skew them, and the skukum is definitely punctate.
It's definitely very rough and I'm gonna go back now to and I'll never get through very much of this, but that's OK.
So if I go to the endrina key.
With this one I've.
I'm I started, I think.
Umm, no.
This version I haven't scored it so so one thing that for me a lot of times I will use not the initial on the first screen that you see when you go to into one of these guides I'll use the in the menu.
Oops, it's often jumps back and forth to where I don't want it to go here.

Droege, Sam 46:13
Can you zoom up up your?

David Cappaert (Guest) 46:16
Yeah, yeah, I think I can like that, right.

Droege, Sam 46:17
2.
It should be under underview.
Maybe on the yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 46:24
Yeah.
I mean, it's bigger now, right, Sam?

Droege, Sam 46:26
Yeah.
There you go.
Good.

David Cappaert (Guest) 46:27
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 46:27
Yeah. Beautiful.

David Cappaert (Guest) 46:27
Yeah. Good.
OK, so I use the menu on.
Here's why.
If you start with this key when this was designed, I'm sure there were folks saying, OK, let's not overwhelm everyone with a zillion different characters that might be tricky.
Let's give them some initial choices to make, and based on what they choose here, the key will limit the list and it'll offer you some more characters that you might wanna evaluate.
However, I I will often use the in the menu I'll choose has here and this will allow me to look at every single character on one long scrolling screen, and so when we like when I just walked through those characters for the mystery bee that we were looking at, I can now in the haze menu I can get everyone of those characters entered here without having to do some iterations of.

Droege, Sam 47:51
So just for that reason.

David Cappaert (Guest) 47:52
Yeah.
And really good point that that's super helpful.
So helps me be organized so I can quickly say pale on apical hair.
Uh.
Fine lines.
It's not smooth and shiny.
I can say absent, uh, color internment.
Definitely not red or metallic.
Definitely all pale.
My specimen is about 11.
Millimeters.

Droege, Sam 48:35
So let me just make a note.
A lot of times, almost every time when I'm putting in a measurement, I'm bracketing it because the specimen you had was nice and straight, but many specimens have a the head is cocked, so there's a millimeter or the abdomen is drooping and you have to like, OK, you could take a straight line distance, but that's not really the true distance.

David Cappaert (Guest) 48:38
And.
There's not very many things that are that tiny, and there's very few things that are as big as 18.

Droege, Sam 51:07
It's like, oh, OK, that's a I I can clearly see that.
So I'm that's a really good thing and it will drop out.

David Cappaert (Guest) 51:56
We've looked at it and I think I already know it's either shallow or not.
I'm down to 24 out of 500, so I'm starting to feel a little confident.
I think I know what go ahead, Sam.

Droege, Sam 52:33
Let me I was gonna say one more thing.
Is like, yes, there's whatever the number is for Oregon, but that was based on, you know, 20 years ago our initial scoring.
Or maybe there's an existing list and make sure they're scored for being in Oregon in discover life.

David Cappaert (Guest) 53:03
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 53:05
There's gonna be some species that are now known to be in Oregon, that it weren't on that original list.
And so you have to constantly be updating discover life, which we're not doing.
We don't do unless we hear from someone from out West because we're not using the Western material.

David Cappaert (Guest) 53:26
So actually I'm gonna jump to to specifying where I am.
Now I'm starting to feel pretty good.
No, but differences is good and actually this is gonna highlight something important about the western material.
It happens.
They're all in the same sub genus, which is not surprising because they, the characters they have are sort of aligned with the subgenus SIM Endrina, and when I see a differences thing with a bunch of blank boxes, it means I'm gonna have a hard time nailing this because it hasn't been scored or comma or pencils have not been scored for surface texture of two, or for whether they have pits or not.
All of them could occur in that month.

Droege, Sam 56:48
You see what I'm saying?

David Cappaert (Guest) 56:48
Yes, a totally so if I'm lucky and it has this character that this one never has, then yes, I can exclude this middle one.

Droege, Sam 56:56
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 56:58
So yeah, you have to think in that way, but aside from that one, which might or might not nail it, everything else here go ahead.

Droege, Sam 57:05
Well, that's well.
Stop right there.
Look at this.
Look at your seller distance.
So this one is scored only for less than one, right?
So if you had a not.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 57:47
So yeah, it's definitely dicey.
It's just damn hard and we need go ahead, Sam.

Droege, Sam 58:03
Normally what we have done with the eastern ones is if we get to a group of three like that and there's no pathway clear pathway through for identifying and separating them.
That says to us we need a character that is very specific for those three species.
In other words, how do I tell species one from species to species 3 and you'll see it's the guide is peppered with that sort of thing, but they're almost all eastern species, so the scoring for these were done one time on the core characters.

David Cappaert (Guest) 58:32
Right.

Droege, Sam 58:40
No effort was made to look for collisions.
In other words, groups of species that are not differentiable and we can go back at some point to the menu in the key and click on the resolve button and you'll see all the collisions, and that's what we would do.
We tried like ohh these don't resolve OK we need to create a A this versus that on those and so forth so.

David Cappaert (Guest) 59:15
And and it just pops out.

Droege, Sam 59:28
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 59:31
So we've got one definite helpful thing and other than that, it's quite possible that we would not be able to discriminate these three and I think.

Droege, Sam 1:00:40
But there was something with AP also that I can't remember the after.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:00:42
And phillis.
Yeah, all he had pensilis.

Droege, Sam 1:00:44
That's too bad, but we're in no rush, OK?

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:00:48
Yeah, yeah, I I'm aware of the time.
So we'll figure out some way to.
So we're P/E N so so OK, so those are the three and the exciting question is will will it tell us about the conflicts, so submit for resolve.

Droege, Sam 1:00:57
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:01:06
OK.
And then we click on any one of you, Sam.

Droege, Sam 1:01:10
Uh.
Umm.
Umm. Oops.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:01:11
Yeah, that didn't do it.

Droege, Sam 1:01:14
Yeah, it may not be.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:01:15
Hold on.

Droege, Sam 1:01:16
It may not be something that you could have, so the resolve button might just work as we saw in the first case, and then you would just Scroll down and look for each.
Those three species and see if they're resolving with one another.
So if we hit go back up and hit reset and then hit resolve, you get this monster list, but you can then use fine to find you know one of those members and see who it's not resolving with.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:06
OK, so I've is this good?

Droege, Sam 1:02:07
One hit reset first.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:09
I've got ohh.

Droege, Sam 1:02:10
No.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:10
OK, sure.
Reset is over here, yes.

Droege, Sam 1:02:12
Hit not, so that's going to clear everything now.
Hit resolve.
Now hit submit. Yep.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:21
Oops, not yes, submit OK.

Droege, Sam 1:02:25
And you'll get the big list.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:26
So it gives me everything.

Droege, Sam 1:02:27
Now you can either Scroll down to Oracle or commas or or whatever the first ones are.
Do a find and see who it's not resolving with.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:38
OK, so I'm gonna go to, well, why is it giving me every darn thing in the list?

Droege, Sam 1:02:38
And.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:02:46
I thought we wanted to resolve just two of them.

Droege, Sam 1:02:46
Because it's.
Yes, but that's not the purpose of resolve.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:03:12
I'll just pick anything, right. OK.

Droege, Sam 1:03:14
Yeah.
Well, any of the three and.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:03:16
Ohh any other three.
This is one of the issues with discover.
Like there's a lot of Times Now I've zeroed out everything I've done right.
Like when I was initially doing the has menu, I can't get it back.

Droege, Sam 1:03:37
Uh-huh.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:03:38
Now I'd have to start from scratch, so it's a thing you know and and when I get this, I say ohh shocks, I have to start over.

Droege, Sam 1:03:41
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Well, you can still hit submit again and get to resolve and then scroll or do a fine to find a species you're interested in.
One of those three, there we go.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:03:56
Ohh I see like this.
Yeah, I'll do oraculum.
That ohh no or I spelled that very badly.
Uh.
Or call no.
There it is.
OK oops, I took the wrong one.
Damn it.
Is this what I'm expecting to see Sam?

Droege, Sam 1:04:20
Umm, I'm not sure what you did, but I think you clicked on aura so you wanted to find it in that list.
So let's go hit, go backwards or hit resolve again.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:04:34
OK.
Uh.
Resolve it again.

Droege, Sam 1:04:39
We don't want the information you're going to the species page, which we don't want, so hit resolve now.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:04:43
OK.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:04:47
Just just Scroll down so that the you see that species whose name I can't remember from time to time.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:04:54
Here's Ora comma.
OK, I'm gonna click on our comma.

Droege, Sam 1:05:03
But don't.
Ohh no, no, don't sorry.
Don't click on it.
We're just going to look at it.
We're going to look on who's not resolving with it.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:05:11
OK.
OK so.

Droege, Sam 1:05:16
Says it will go if you click on the name of it ever.
So let's look at auricoma.
Don't click, just get to where it's showing on the page.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:05:26
Here it is on the page.

Droege, Sam 1:05:34
So you see, I'm looking at a page that says Endrina agilus matches 101101 other species.
So we wanna go down till we get to or acoma and see how many it matches.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:05:45
Yeah, this is.
This is oh, oh, I see.
I see.
Ah, now I get it.
OK.
And the excellent, I'm sure I understand what you're talking about now.

Droege, Sam 1:05:56
OK.
Right.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:07
Yes. Uh.

Droege, Sam 1:06:07
Well, it's it's not meant.
It's not meant to be a user tool.
It's meant to be a guide builder too, so I'm building the Andrina guide and I'm going to now see.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:22
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:06:28
Things according to its algorithm, which is very broad, by the way, that our not going to resolve in a clear path of choices.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:32
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:06:40
So you were able to get there with and still have three.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:40
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:06:45
So theoretically, those three species, there's angosto, aphobia and what was the other one again with a P? Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:06:53
Uh, penicillus.

Droege, Sam 1:06:55
Right, which is not there, which means that it probably does air quote resolve in the guide.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:07:02
Gotcha.

Droege, Sam 1:07:02
So anyway, so I being a guy builder and you would, you know, say, OK, I think I've got a pretty good handle on the Oregon andrina.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:07:02
Gotcha. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:07:13
Let's see if I do and then, you know, you would go and you'd look at these kinds of things and say, oh, I've got some more work here to do to resolve those species.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:07:15
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:07:25
There's more than meets the eye because obviously we were able to get to 3 species with some simple scoring and this is showing 23 within the guide, but there's reasons for that was we don't need to go into, but it points out in this.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:07:34
Right.
Sure.

Droege, Sam 1:07:40
But this is what we do at the end of a guide that's just, say, for the East.
We want none of this.
This want this to be blank.
In other words, we've resolved every single species.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:07:50
Yeah, yeah, that would be great.
And I bet if we have some that seem.

Droege, Sam 1:07:54
And I bet if we have some that Steve.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:07:57
Very small.
These are either going to be very specialized things, or they're going to be eastern and you've scored the heck out of.

Droege, Sam 1:08:00
Actualized things that we're gonna be eastern.
Yeah, there's.
So there's a this is anyway, I was just curious.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:08:05
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:08:08
So what it showed me is two of those species can't resolve well, given the algorithm of resolution as you suspected, but one of them, the one that began with P, seems to have some character that we overlooked that would have resolved the umm species.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:08:19
Umm.

Droege, Sam 1:08:28
But again, we're deep now into a tool that most people will never want to use unless they're guide, though I'm not convinced.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:08:38
I'm not sure.
I'm not convinced.
I just either.

Droege, Sam 1:08:40
I really yeah.
So I mean what we don't know at this point is what's the right answer, right?

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:08:43
Uh.

Droege, Sam 1:08:47
So I would have suggested that we use the main.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:08:47
Right.

Droege, Sam 1:08:54
Page to answer those questions and then you know you can hit the simplify and and play around with a smaller subset of characters and then click things on click things off and see if we can come up with a that.
And then you would go and say, look at the species pages.
There's not much in the in the Western species pages for descriptions.
Then look online, which there is a lot of information on the maps and see like, oh, one of these is super common.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:09:22
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:09:24
Two are super rare, so you know, and then it'd be like, well, I'm that's gonna enter into my considerations.
Of what I've got?
Is it a rare thing or is it a common thing?
Well, more likely common, but if it's gonna be a rare one, I need to do more diligence in terms of making sure.
So I would go to the literature again.
That's another thing that needs to be added like the Western species accounts should be added and can be added by anyone.
We can set them up to do that, copy and paste from Laberge and put the species accounts in more pictures, etcetera.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:09:59
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:10:04
The more that occurs, the more additional information you have right in the guide to go and work on.
OK, I've got it down to two or three and a very conservative approach.
Let's start looking at the ancillary information and see if I can use a weight of evidence now and some very specific characters and so forth, and then I'll make a note.
I need to add a key a character in the guide to resolve those two or three species so that the next person that comes along doesn't have to do all this other stuff and so that that's a great Tim.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:10:42
OK.
That that's all great, Sam.
And one thing you mentioned was you could go to the.

Droege, Sam 1:10:46
One thing you mentioned was you.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:10:48
So is everyone here this echo or is it just me?

Droege, Sam 1:10:52
Just you just you, yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:10:52
Hopefully it's just me.
OK, so when you go to the species page, if you're lucky, there's gonna be an image there.
And this is one of the three that we considered is aracama and I'm going to exclude Auricoma instantly because it's punctate very distinctly punctate on T2, and my mystery beat would had zero punctuation.

Droege, Sam 1:11:13
Mm-hmm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:11:16
So I I can eliminate just at a glance at a photo like this.
This assuming that decapper correctly identified this thing as a or or a coma, I believe.

Droege, Sam 1:11:27
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:11:27
I believe that you know, so if I'm right, it can't be this.

Droege, Sam 1:11:29
OK.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:11:32
So I think I should consolidate because I'm, you know, we're eating up all the time and people will probably drift.
So can I just say a few concluding kinds of things?

Droege, Sam 1:11:41
Yep.
Yep. Please.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:11:43
Yeah.
Cool.
So.
So for me, I mean we got sort of sidetracked on some things and and that's absolutely useful to me.
And I think probably to a number of people.
And so we didn't get through, you know, the Lesson plan today and that's fine.
I think I know what my mystery be is I won't say as yet, but the other thing to do when I get this far in discover life and let's say we've kind of selected three choices just using the normal set of relatively easy characters.
We didn't look at the maxillary palps or anything obscure, so that was pretty good.
And I think to get what we know in order to differentiate the three choices we got, we need another tool.
We can't nail it and discover life, and so the other thing I could do if we wanna do this as a follow up next week or something, we could look at the at the harder path to get all the way to species with some kind of confidence.

Droege, Sam 1:12:35
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:12:44
And that would involve looking at the literature at a liberge paper.

Droege, Sam 1:12:49
Yep.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:12:49
And before you look at the livers paper, you need to be clear about what subgenus you have.
So I have another tool for looking at that, so those are things that we yeah, that would be great.

Droege, Sam 1:12:56
Yeah.
Yeah, we can tackle that next week.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:13:00
And so let me just say quick as a you know, a couple summary other things, I would love it if anybody in this group can give me any feedback you have on this endrina guide, things that I say that are not clear or things that you know that are important that I should consider.
I'm so obsessed about this, like many entomologists are obsessed about the all of these details that we do, that if you sent me a weird, twisted tibial spur of an andrina and you know what it is, I'll shoot it and and I'll put it in here, you know, cause this needs a lot more on refinement, you know, although I think it's a reasonable first cut.
The other thing I wanna just highlight is this whole glossary thing.
This I would.
This is where I really need feedback because I've spent 500 hours on this.
I mean, I'm seriously working on it, but I'm doing most of it just in my own little silo, so I really wanna know what other people say about what's useful and what's what should be here.
That's not, and that the general intention here is for discover life audience.
The kind of people who routinely use that kind of tool, where will they run into terms that are either not adequately explained in in the discovery life because it can only do so much or not even translated?
Plus, there's the papers you look at.
If you look at Joel's work or it on a ferco's work, or whoever, there will be terms that don't appear in discover life, but you need to know what they are in order to, you know, to get anywhere.
So anybody who wants to give me feedback on this would be great.
And yeah, I guess that, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:14:52
He, David.
Hey, I'm so have you put out your glossary and said anything about it on the DB monitoring listserv.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:15:02
No, it was talking to Claire about this.
And of course, as you might guess, am I'm.
I'm trepidatious because, you know, I don't want to expose, you know, my my ignorance.
But the truth is, I don't mind.
Actually I I I want experts to come and say, listen man, we don't agree and.

Droege, Sam 1:15:18
Yes, this is this is this is mature and this goes for everyone who's listening right now.
You know you have to take some risks.
Like what I'm hearing is like I don't wanna be like called out as an impostor or or make a mistake in front of.
Like whatever, whoever I make mistakes all the time.
But if no one says anything, nobody else is gonna learn.
It's generally not always we've added some problems.
Generally with 1300 people or is it 2300 people?
I can't remember many people out there, a pretty welcoming thing, and you'll get really good feedback really fast if you just sit.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:16:01
Right.

Droege, Sam 1:16:02
I'm.
I'm just gonna hit you for a little bit because you're just an easy target right now.
If you just continue on your merry way and then find out later that maybe we should have done something different or someone else has a really good idea at the time of the throw it out is right now.
And umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:16:19
Yes.

Droege, Sam 1:16:20
So this goes for.
I'm just gonna now generalize and say a lot of you have questions or have seen cool things or have observations that should go out on that list and questions you will never be the only person with that observation or that question.
But if you don't share two things, one, nobody knows who you are and the second is you're kind of like ruining the idea of a list service which is community and helping everyone else.
So the some of the best ways to help someone else out is to say I don't know.
I want to get some feedback.
Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong and take that risk, but again, you can look at several people on that listserv and we hear from them a lot.
We know who they are, and in some ways this is a really good way to get known by a much larger community.
But again, you've got to type those little typing things.
So I'm getting off my soapbox now and.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:17:21
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, but to to to share the soapbox for a second.
See him?
I would say the one thing I don't wanna do is, I mean, it's OK to be naive, of course.

Droege, Sam 1:17:26
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:17:31
But but I need to do my homework right?
So I don't wanna put on be monitoring a question that can be answered trivially with a quick Google search.

Droege, Sam 1:17:35
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:17:41
I I want it to be something that maybe other people share.

Droege, Sam 1:17:42
Great.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:17:44
And so for this glossary thing, if I'm wrong at this point, if I've spent 500 hours thinking as hard as I can about be taxonomy and I'm puzzled about something, I guarantee much of the rest of the non official taxonomy world is also confused about it.
So I I have no sense of shame at all about getting it wrong and and more generally, on the soapbox.

Droege, Sam 1:18:05
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:18:08
I agree with Sam.
Any of us should venture forth into into this whole thing because most of the people who need to do identity identify things to species are not folks in state laboratories with giant collections and a intimate familiarity with the with the literature.
There are folks like us, you know, I assume many of you are me.
I I need to have ID I can't get.
Probably Jason Gibbs to look at all my stuff before you know, two years from now.
So we need to be able to use these tools, so anything we can do that gets us closer, that's my mission.

Droege, Sam 1:18:50
Boom.
So you're gonna put out a message today.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:18:52
Cool.
I you know, Sam, I will and I'll blame you if I get a hammered.
You know that's OK.

Droege, Sam 1:19:02
Yeah.
Well, I mean you you don't say I'm done with this.
You say I have developed a a general concept.
It's mature from my point of view.
I want some feedback on the approach.
You also can give me individual feedback on some of these characters that I may have misinterpreted or is perhaps have a more specific meaning, and then ultimately so that's a good first round, right?

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:19:27
Sure.

Droege, Sam 1:19:30
And then ultimately, it's like I think I'm done, but maybe I have five questions about some areas and I'm also open for anyone else to just scroll through it and find you know something else that they think needs to be shifted fixed or whatever.
And just remember that people like to shoot down other people.
'S That's academia, right?
You're like, I look through your stuff and it's wrong.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:19:53
It is.

Droege, Sam 1:19:55
So if you provide a nice target, that's what you do, you throw it out there.
Let them shoot it up.
But you're gonna learn a lot and not that they're really gonna do that in that harsh way.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:20:05
No, no, no, I right.

Droege, Sam 1:20:06
But but people like to, they don't want to be like, hey, why don't you help me do a glossary?
Like that's gonna get zero people.
But here, tell me where I'm wrong now. Game on.
So yeah, great. Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:20:19
Right, right.
And one other one other tiny thing to say about that.
Same is I got a little taste of this one I posted on be monitoring the question about the technical color terms or creations ferruginous you know, et cetera.

Droege, Sam 1:20:30
Yeah, yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:20:34
And there was a quite a bit of discussion there, and it was one of my take homes was there's plenty of people who say, ohh man, you don't know what ochraceous means.

Droege, Sam 1:20:37
Yeah, that was great. Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:20:43
I know what ochraceous means, but that individual did not agree with a bunch of other super experts about what it meant.
Because if you're an arena guy, this is how you use it.
If you're a bombast girl, you use it differently.
Probably.
So you find that the experts.

Droege, Sam 1:20:59
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:21:01
Yeah, there are experts in their own little bubble, but maybe it's not universal, so that's that's the sweet spot for me.
It's learning now where interpretation is going to be necessary.

Droege, Sam 1:21:13
Yeah, yeah, good.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:21:14
Yeah, cool.

Droege, Sam 1:21:14
Alright, well I look forward to your post.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:21:17
Yeah.
And and yeah, we'll do it.
I promise you and anybody can email me anytime.
And as Sam is suggesting, try to shoot down anything I've done, or alternatively, collaborate with me on anything.
I I would add a coauthor to my glossary if I had anyone who wanted to fritter away the amount of time that I do on it.
Be great so.

Droege, Sam 1:21:40
There you go.
Good.
Now we're rolling and then after that we'll get you to start scoring a better scoring, a lot of those Oregon Andrina and so forth.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:21:44
Cool.

Droege, Sam 1:21:51
It's not rocket science.
You just have just has to be done like you know that you have the tools to complete the scoring of the specimens you have and yeah, good.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:21:54
Yep.
I do.
I do.
Cool.
Alright, thanks everybody.
Ohh and well, the other thing of course, next time around I we're both.

Droege, Sam 1:22:05
Alright.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:22:08
We're both speaking into a, A an audience that's completely silent.
I'm really interested in what other people are thinking or questions they have, so maybe we can squeeze more of that in.
Did we get any chat items?
I haven't checked.

Droege, Sam 1:22:23
Not really, or else it's it's not usually a chatty group.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:22:24
It, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:22:27
Yeah, gotten got me out.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:22:28
Yeah, I I agree.

Droege, Sam 1:22:31
Too, too deep in the weeds.
They're afraid of clear.
Ohh that's definitely it.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:22:34
Yeah, I I know.
I'm afraid of Claire.
I mean, jeez.

Droege, Sam 1:22:39
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She is reporting now.
See you next week, alright.
Uh, yeah.
Let's let's go to the next.
Yeah, she's got a wicked upper cut.
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:22:53
Uh-huh.

Droege, Sam 1:22:53
So let's let's say if David's into it, that will continue with looking at how you would approach looking at the literature and things like that and to help with the resolution and we can continue looking at characters and or, you know, just discussing how to become like Wally Laberge or his students in thinking differently in a different world of keys that has come from a different background.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:23:03
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Great.
OK, good.

Droege, Sam 1:23:25
Right.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:23:25
Yeah.
Thanks very much.
I've enjoyed it a lot.

Droege, Sam 1:23:28
Night.
Right.
Thanks everyone.
Thank you, Claire.
Thank you.

Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription