hLearn to ID Bees-20240221_130232-Meeting Recording

February 21, 2024, 6:02PM

1h 23m 24s

Droege, Sam 0:14
You may take it away.
We finished up the.
The dance students last week and our returning to complete 13, which is.

Joel Gardner 0:25
You.

Droege, Sam 0:30
Here on my screen and I have my scope up Joel and I have specimens if we need them.

Joel Gardner 0:36
OK, great.
Because they're yeah, now that we're out of the West again for a while, I don't have as many representatives specimens are the ones we're gonna be looking at.

Droege, Sam 0:50
Sure.

Joel Gardner 0:53
OK, so back to 13, so that that's the message queue them entirely dense or sparse in part and in part you really looking at is the the middle, the center of this Hukum.
So last week we covered the species where it's dense throughout and there was all went to Cuba at 73.
So now we're gonna go the other way.
So if this freedom punctures are sparse in the middle and that's most of the species, especially if you're in the east, this is gonna be most of the species you're gonna go to couplet 14.
So I don't know if we want to.
Show the skewed on what that looks like.
They think we've we've done it before, but maybe it would be good for review.

Droege, Sam 1:46
Sure.
Also, do you have a particular species you want me to pull up?

Joel Gardner 1:59
Not really, no.
Most anyone will do.

Droege, Sam 2:04
Right there, there are many.
And I have one of the figures from the paper up for the comparison.
Actually the I I'll go ahead and get this on deck, but if you wanna use that paper copy there.
Joel to explain that it's probably gonna be clearer than what I can put up on the microscope for talking about sparse versus nonsparse.

Joel Gardner 2:33
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, this is actually a really good figure.
Alright, the white arrow on 11B there shows that middle area of this udom, where the punctures are going to be sparse or so if you compare that middle area to the edges over where the perhaps a little lines are, uh, you can see that you can see the definite difference there in the width of the inner spaces.
And then eating at 11 A.
If you look at the middle and you compare it to the edges by the, perhaps the lines, the punctures are they're kind of a little.
They are a little bit sparser in the middle, but it's not super noticeable.

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Joel Gardner 3:29
It's more or less uniformly punctated throughout.
And yet stressed before that, that uniformity is really what you're looking for here.
So if it's, if they're a puncture diameter or less apart, and they're not really obviously sparse or in the middle.
Then there are those are those covered 73 dense throughout ones looking for like, obviously, sparser punctures in the middle?

Droege, Sam 4:07
Yep, I I haven't bonki up or a purported a bonki as I like to think of it.
And we can just show an alternative to the picture.
It's it looks like it's a.
It's pits are pretty well defined.

Joel Gardner 4:24
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 4:24
Should I put that up?

Joel Gardner 4:24
Yeah, that'll be a good example.
Yes, yes.

Droege, Sam 4:33
OK.
Can you see it there?

Joel Gardner 4:34
Can you speak?

Droege, Sam 4:35
Let me get it.
It goes out of focus periodically as the camera heats up.
But here you can see you know these are well separated and they get denser.
As Joel points out to the anterior and lateral or ladder rad of the pair apsidal lines, but the middle pretty shiny because it isn't a bonki thing and but still the tricky thing with a bonky and semi uh subera datum to me is always that there's still are lines there.
It's just a bit shinier than others.

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Droege, Sam 5:18
So anything more to show here?
Or should we move further?

Joel Gardner 5:24
Yeah, I don't think we need to dwell on this too much because we have covered it previously.

Droege, Sam 5:27
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 5:31
So just just some quick review.

Droege, Sam 5:31
OK, right.
Go ahead and take over.

Joel Gardner 5:39
Alright, so the next.
See the next couple of couplets.
Umm, just pull out some kind of oddball unique species that are have some unique characters, so these are pretty rare.
You're not gonna find them very often, but they they just come out individually.
And the key here just because when you do find them are there, they're not hard to recognize because they have these kind of odd characters.
So the first one it couplet 15 uh is dealing with laziness and Palladium.
Which I believe we've talked about in a previous class, but we can review it again and this is looking at, you're going to be looking at the Pro Trochanters.

Droege, Sam 6:30
We.

Joel Gardner 6:34
So the front legs, the segment between the cochlea and the femur and caladium has really short, wide, flat trochanters on the front legs, and then it's also got kind of a weird mandible.
And you have any cow items, Sam?

Droege, Sam 6:57
I do.
We have gone over these and also just saying that the caladium is not at all rare.
In fact, it could be abundant in some of these eastern, particularly southeastern pockets.
Dream seen thousands and thousands of them.

Joel Gardner 7:15
Oh, that's interesting.

Droege, Sam 7:16
So where where are you?

Joel Gardner 7:17
OK, I haven't seen very many.
So I think of it as rare, but it it could be with a lot of these species.

Droege, Sam 7:21
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 7:26
Umm.
They there's there's they can be rare in a lot of places, but then you get like a couple of spots where they're really locally abundant.

Droege, Sam 7:37
Yeah.
Yeah, like good.
That's all in here.

Joel Gardner 7:45
It looks like Jason is in the chat now, so he can chime in with any more details as we go.

Droege, Sam 7:50
Oh my gosh.

Joel Gardner 7:56
He says that caladium is rare in Canada website that fetches that you're you're saying that it's more common in the southeast?

Droege, Sam 8:00
Yeah.
Yeah, you know it is super common and it is so common that I don't have it in my synoptic collection because you know, it says I've got a couple mails here, but not any of the females.

Joel Gardner 8:07
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 8:21
So we we have covered this before.
So I'm gonna say we don't necessarily need to spend much time on it, particularly because I don't have any female.

Joel Gardner 8:31
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 8:39
But it is super abundant in.

Joel Gardner 8:41
Yeah.
So we could there are figures for what it looks like, so we could show those in in absence of actual specimens.

Droege, Sam 8:53
Yeah, we had that whole.

Joel Gardner 8:54
We.

Droege, Sam 8:56
We had a whole session on on call Adam and Adorando and Versam and trigeminal that people can reference back to you.

Joel Gardner 9:09
You have?
Yep, that is good dimension.
Anybody who's watching, if you go back to the archives, there's another class.
Where we talk about, help them and then these other related species in that that same group that look pretty similar.

Droege, Sam 9:23
Yes.
Anyway, if we want to go on but clear pulled the the the major collection of caladiums here and I'm gonna try and put in a good good example.
That you can see the trochanters and the face.
But I'm again, I think we had good looks at these in the previous one.
So I'm not sure we need to move into it.

Joel Gardner 9:57
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 10:03
So I would go ahead, Joel, carry on.

Joel Gardner 10:06
All right.

Droege, Sam 10:06
I'll I'll put something on deck and we can flashback to it.

Joel Gardner 10:09
So with that one. Yep.

Droege, Sam 10:10
I've I've just found a good one.

Joel Gardner 10:14
So then the next one is another kind of rare species, or at least I think of it as rare.
I haven't seen it very often, but I suppose it could be locally abundant in some places and that is they do have some dry spot guy and this is a this is a veered autumn group species, but it's one of the few weird item group species that's actually pretty easy to identify because it has this really unique meets up a sternum sculpture.
It's really coarsely rugose in the top half and then in the bottom half it's smooth and pontage and nothing else looks like this.
So because then it's just we just pull it out on its own early in the key.

Droege, Sam 11:01
And I would.
And I'll tell you that it definitely is rare in the east where we are.
I've only seen a handful of specimens.

Joel Gardner 11:19
Yeah, I have also only seen a handful.

Droege, Sam 11:23
I think it's more northern too, where I'm certain it's more northern.
We don't really even have, we don't have any.
We I have to go.

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Droege, Sam 11:31
Look, I'm not sure we have any specimens for Maryland.

Joel Gardner 11:35
Yeah, I think it is a I think it is a forest because it the type is it again.

Droege, Sam 11:41
Umm.

Joel Gardner 11:44
Process of Michigan has mostly forest and I've seen some from from northern Minnesota, I believe.

Droege, Sam 11:51
Uh-huh.
And well, if you want, we'll just flip back.
I've got a good caladium on deck where you can actually see the true canters you wanna do that for a second?

Joel Gardner 12:06
All right.

Droege, Sam 12:14
And so if you look here, so here's the head.

Joel Gardner 12:14
And here.

Droege, Sam 12:18
Obviously, here's this really wide front trochanter slightly hollow, usually almost always bowed like that.
If you have anything else to add, but it's the the width is nearing the length, and in many other species, and also it's clearly wider than the the the femur here, and it's just really in in the extreme cases, it's very obvious.
It can be a little bit shorter than that.
That's actually a really good big one and then we can look at the.

Joel Gardner 12:56
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 12:57
Umm umm the mandible, which conveniently is right there and show you the angle.
To the.
Of the top edge of the mandible where the Corina, instead of paralleling the other.

Joel Gardner 13:16
Right.

Droege, Sam 13:18
So there's like 2 coronas in that area.
So here's the mandible.
Here's the base.
Here's the eye Carina Wine Kraina 2, and it's got a upward angle, which I'm gonna refer mucus.

Joan joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 13:31
And the mandible itself, in my opinion, tends to be curved more strongly, but if Joel, if you wanna talk about it more or Jason has anything to add more power to you.

Joel Gardner 13:49
Yep, that it's easiest to see if the mandible is open.
Umm, the figure that's in the key shows the mandible when it's open and.

Droege, Sam 14:00
Umm.

Joel Gardner 14:01
Shows that, umm, that kind of angle really.
Clearly when it's closed though, it is definitely more strongly curved like you say.
So even on its closed look for that that that strong bend in the middle of the mandible?

Droege, Sam 14:21
Yeah, it gets subtle, and I'm often using.
Once I'm in that group, I'm using both the trochanter and if I can see that angle or the humped curve.
Processed whatever you wanna call it.
Part of the mandible Corina there to kind of suss out whether I have it or not.
If you have an aberrant dum, this is this area right?
Oversight.
And this is just like a stick, but to mix things up, try the trigeminal is sort of an in between level on that, but has a straight mandible leading to plenty of room for ambiguity.

Joel Gardner 14:53
To.
Yeah.
Actually, I'll try jamming.
Them is not too hard to separate from Caledon.
That looks a lot more like for Sodom.

Droege, Sam 15:23
Yeah, I spent a lot of time looking at all three and add random to some extent to trying to make sure it really slows down my ID's a lot because that whole group is usually a good percentage of almost any catch that we see in the east.

Joel Gardner 15:23
Yeah.
Yeah, alright. So.

Droege, Sam 15:44
All right, go ahead.
Take over again, Joel, and and go on.

Joel Gardner 15:49
Think.
Yep.
Think we can move on?
So the next couplet is an important one.
Uh, this this is a a major split in the key.
It'll pull out a lot of.
A lot of species.
And this is.

Droege, Sam 16:11
Did we want to show our dress talking?
Do you have?
I don't have a dry sparky.
I mean, it's that uncommon.
I mean, I'll look, I don't think I do.

Joel Gardner 16:19
Yeah, I don't have one either.
Not on hand.
So in this couplet.
We're looking at the a carinaria fan or.
Umm.
Let's see.
One fan you just might not necessarily be a carinaria deal.
And whether this is complete or incomplete.
Meaning, whether or not there's a gap in it.
And I was going to put a specimen.
Under the scope but.
The camera does not seem to want to work.
Ohh there.

Droege, Sam 17:19
Did you turn on there? OK.
You should be able to share now and stop sharing.

Joel Gardner 17:36
Alright, you need to get the the specimen positioned.

Droege, Sam 17:41
And I also turns out I do have a dry spot key and it'll be a interesting one to show.
And you guys can help me to make sure that I I indeed identified it correctly, because it's from Pennsylvania, which is pretty far South.

Joel Gardner 17:53
Here.

Droege, Sam 17:55
But you go ahead with yours and we'll come back to the device packing.

Joel Gardner 18:01
All right, I'm still getting it positioned.
No, and.
He looks.
And share.
Alright, so this is an example of a complete fan.
Uh, this specimen actually is, uh, something.
I think in the veered autumn group, usually the third item group has an incomplete fan, but there is at least a couple of them with a complete fan, and this is one of them.
I don't know which species because it's from the West and we need to revise those.
But you can see.
Uh, this is T1 right here, and if I bring the let's focus up, can you see like here is the proposed Yum.

Droege, Sam 19:35
You're not seeing your screen.
Joe, we don't see your screen.

Joel Gardner 19:44
So the back of the bee is at the top of the screen and the abdomen is kind of fold it down.
So you looking at the front face of T1 right here and there's all the all these short oppressed CD and they form kind of a ring around the base of T1 and it kind of gets thin in the middle.

Jason Gibbs 19:50
Can you hear us though?

Droege, Sam 19:51
Hey, Joel.
Joe, we don't see your screen.
Hey, Joel, can you hear us?
I don't think he can hear us now.

Joel Gardner 20:07
It gets narrower and thinner.
Umm, so this is where the gap is going to be.
If there's an incomplete fan, so this one is kind of weekly complete.

Droege, Sam 20:20
Jolt can can you hear us?

Joel Gardner 20:21
But no definite gap, so this would qualify as a complete fan.
And.

Droege, Sam 20:30
Joe, Joe.

Joel Gardner 20:31
Most of what you see in the West is going to have a complete fan like that.

Droege, Sam 20:34
Is he?
Is he logged off somehow?
Kind of.

Joel Gardner 20:39
And a lot of what you see in the East is going to be incomplete.

Droege, Sam 20:41
Well.
Let's see how can we wake him up? Everybody's.

Joel Gardner 20:51
In the east, you get a lot more of the Veritatem group.

Droege, Sam 20:59
He's very concentrated.
I think he only sees his screen.
Joel, can you hear us?

Joel Gardner 21:05
And I'm gonna put on.
Another one.

Droege, Sam 21:12
Let's see.
Hmm, basically you.
Uh would how would we?
How would we do this now?

Joel Gardner 21:22
So this is a lazy blossom add Miranda.

Droege, Sam 21:26
Can you turn him off and turn them back on?

Joel Gardner 21:30
And it appears that front face of T1 again.
And you can see those.

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Droege, Sam 21:38
Yep, after they did it.
Ohh man alright.
So, OK, well, Joel has to log back on, right?
But does he even know he's given logged off?
He's probably he.
Might still be there.
OK.
Well, I see Jason is there and well in the meantime, let me share my screen and Jason, you can take a look at this purported dry spot key that I have and it's the only one I've got.

Jason Gibbs 22:10
Yeah, I'm.
I'm not officially here because I gotta leave in 5 minutes to get my son, but yeah, I can talk until jewel you're back.

Droege, Sam 22:14
Alright, well that's.

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Joel Gardner 22:21
Yes, I don't know what happened there.

Jason Gibbs 22:24
OK.

Joel Gardner 22:24
And I don't know when I cut out how.

Jason Gibbs 22:24
I'll let girl take a look.

Joel Gardner 22:26
How much did you?
How much did A did did you miss?

Droege, Sam 22:31
Uh, everything since you tried to share, like when you should have shared your screen and maybe did, but we never saw anything and then we could hear you, but you couldn't hear us.

Jason Gibbs 22:31
All of it.

Joel Gardner 22:43
Ohh.

Droege, Sam 22:43
So yeah, so we have to start back up anyway.
This is my purported dry spache here and I don't know if it's clear enough to see, but we're looking at.

Jason Gibbs 22:49
I.

Droege, Sam 22:53
Here's the legs down here screwed them up there.
This is the area that is more rugose little hard to see, and then this is the area that's smoother, but.

Jason Gibbs 23:06
It doesn't look coarse enough to me dorsally.

Droege, Sam 23:08
Perhaps in the upper part?

Jason Gibbs 23:11
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 23:12
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 23:12
I go to me, it seems like a gradual change where it's like you really drastic.

Droege, Sam 23:17
Not abrupt enough.
OK, well it is.

Jason Gibbs 23:20
At least at least the ones that I see in call it that.
But how it check the check the skutle punctures like it's usually pretty sparse laterally on dress Boca.

Droege, Sam 23:24
OK, alright.

Jason Gibbs 23:35
There's this thing like filter and stuff like that.

Droege, Sam 23:37
Yeah.
Ohh jump in here.

Jason Gibbs 23:41
And then I gotta run.

Droege, Sam 23:45
Do your familial duty.

Jason Gibbs 23:50
Yeah, I think it's probably too dense.

Droege, Sam 23:50
Right.
That's right. To dance.

Joel Gardner 23:52
Chickens.

Droege, Sam 23:52
OK, alright.

Joel Gardner 23:53
OK, so.

Droege, Sam 23:53
So likely not. Right.
Good.
Now, Joel, you wanna take back over?
I think we'll have to get you to go back to where we are again, and Claire's making you a presenter.

Jason Gibbs left the meeting

Joel Gardner 24:06
OK.
So I'm going to try sharing my screen and.
Not.
Alright, that working.

Droege, Sam 24:21
Because yes.

Joel Gardner 24:24
All right.
So this is lazy blossom and Miranda.
And this is an example of an incomplete fan.
So the this is the back of the bee at the top of the screen and the abdomen is kind of folded down.
And you're the fan.
Is this ring of short, depressed, seedy around the base of T1 and right here you can see an admin?
There's a big gap in the middle of it with no CD, and when there's when there's.

Droege, Sam 25:08
Joel could, could you, could you zoom in a bit so that cause the white is sort of obscuring that gap?

Joel Gardner 25:15
OK. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 25:17
Uh, from, I think the views that I'm looking at and I think if you zoomed in, we'd see that you know where the hair stops and start is not super clear right now.

Joel Gardner 25:22
I think it's easy.
All right.

Droege, Sam 25:32
Alright, that's good. Yeah.

Joel Gardner 25:39
Yeah, it's on a black background, but the that he is the being viewed from the top.
So that as they bright white labels under it.

Droege, Sam 25:50
Umm.
Yeah, I usually take labels off because of that.
That problem the white can be blinding, but I think we can see enough to show.

Joel Gardner 26:00
Alright, kind of pretty shallow depth of field here, so it's hard to get it in focus, but you can kind of see it here.

Droege, Sam 26:08
Umm.

Joel Gardner 26:10
Umm, there's a patch of CD over here on the right and there's another patch over here on the left.
And then there's this gap in the middle with no CD are no, no oppressed.
See you.
Like you see at the sides.
Anyway, there's a few umm, there's a few kind of erecting that are sticking up up here, kind of closer to the top surface, but those aren't considered part of the fan.
It's down here at the base where you're looking and there's this big gap in between is to lateral patches.
So that's what an incomplete fan looks like.
And there's also good figures of this in the key.

Droege, Sam 27:02
And sometimes that gap can be quite there's still a gap, and to be quite small, I'm trying to get a Gotham on deck for you where it's just a training, yeah.

Joel Gardner 27:18
Yeah.
For some of those species, if the gap is there, but really tiny.
Some of those will key out both ways in the key.

Droege, Sam 27:31
That is wise.
Umm, you can continue.
Joel Albert cuddle up on deck when I get a chance.

Joel Gardner 28:00
Alright.
So I'm gonna see.
In foreign example.
Of the complete fan right now.
You can't really see it on that space.

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Joel Gardner 28:51
So this one they can get it.
Visible this should be and and an extreme example of a complete fan.
Maybe that's not your most invisible.

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Droege, Sam 29:58
What species is that joke?

Joel Gardner 30:01
This is lazy blossom elbow.
Hurt him.

Droege, Sam 30:07
A western species.

Joel Gardner 30:09
Yes, this is a western species.
And.
Abdomen is not quite folded down enough for the fan to be really visible, but it should be.
It should be very dense and complete.

Droege, Sam 30:46
Yeah, I'm having a same difficulty showing some of these things.
It's either dark or it's, umm, difficult to angle the thing.
So I think probably generally people have an idea now of what's going on.

Joel Gardner 31:04
Yeah.
And there's a there's a good figure in the key as well of what a complete fan looks like. Actually.
Maybe I can show I wanted to show a more extreme example, but maybe I can just show this specimen that I tried to show when I got caught off.

Droege, Sam 31:16
Mm-hmm.

Joel Gardner 31:26
This is a unknown specimen that I think belongs to the viewed Atom Group, one of the rare veered atom groups that has a complete fan.

Droege, Sam 31:39
While you're doing that, Joel, I, I have a Gotham up.
I can show a very abbreviated gap if you want.

Joel Gardner 31:46
Alright.
Yeah, that's that's a good thing to show.
Yeah.
So I have it on screen now.
Am I still sharing or?

Droege, Sam 31:52
OK.
And yes, I haven't clicked in yet, so go ahead.

Joel Gardner 31:58
Alright, so this is this is a complete fan.
Kind of a sparse complete fan.
Yeah, see if I can get this a little bit brighter.
Yeah.
So this is a tube, right?

Droege, Sam 32:13
Mm-hmm.
No, I think the fan showed up nicely when you did that.

Joel Gardner 32:19
So here's that ring of CD's around the base.
And there's and.
It's actually shows that this is a really good view of the front face of T1.
So T1 will always have this sort of triangular depression at the very base where it meets the proper podium and then the fan is gonna surround that depression at the base.
So you can see here those oppressed CD they kind of go all the way around in a loop, and it's sparser in the middle.
Umm, so this is kind of weakly complete, but there's definitely not a clear gap there.
So this this would qualify as a complete fan.

Droege, Sam 33:06
And if you have questions, for example, if you're in the Discover life guides using the lazy Blossom key, you would just go ahead and click both, you know, incomplete and complete just to be safe to cover your bets.
You don't wanna guess umm, which it might be.
And if you're in a dichotomous key, you would wanna follow both paths and see if which one takes you to a more reasonable end point.
Because we're confronted by ambiguity all the time, particularly because our specimens are less than perfect.
Joel, I'll just click over now to Gotham.

Joel Gardner 33:40
It's.

Droege, Sam 33:42
Do you want me to do that?

Joel Gardner 33:43
Yeah, sure.
You have to go ahead.
Yeah.
And especially it's it's unfortunate with the the that one fan is actually super useful for identification, not just whether it's incomplete or complete, but also umm whether it's dense or sparse and how long or short the Cdr.
And it's unfortunate that in a lot of specimens, the admin will be like pressed up against the podium.
So you can't even really see it.
So even if it's there, we can't always see it.
So you'll sometimes just have to go both ways and see which answer make makes more sense.

Droege, Sam 34:22
Right.
Umm.
You can do that in another little trick, although a potentially dangerous one is.
I just take my finger and I press down on the abdomen and usually there's a little little crack of where the abdomen is.
Feels like it's broken but still stays on, so that's not good for a specimen, and you can lose abdomens that way.
But on the other hand, if you're doing a large ecological study, that might be a way to get in and look at specimens.
Depends on how you feel about your specimens.
You can glue them back on to a card if you wanted to, but I do that in a pretty regularly when I'm like, there's a leg in the way.
I'll just crack the leg or if I'm looking at osmia, where there's a lot of good characters that tend to be hidden in the T1 to the back of the proposed Yum area, I'll just press that abdomen down and see if I can get a a better view.
Not anyway, it is not the best thing for specimens, but it is a better thing for ID and what you're looking at here is I've upped the gain on this picture and what we're looking at is the T1.
So T1 is the the upper surfaces here and this is the fan area and you can see the fan extends up to about here and this is roughly the middle and then it begins again over here with just a few hairs in between and then a a small gap.

Joel Gardner 35:46
Thank you.

Droege, Sam 36:07
So sometimes these gaps can be pretty small, and that again if you have a a lot of goop, goop is more the enemy than the visibility.
Then you can have a difficult time seeing that.
So again, you have to be conservative or put that specimen down and come back to it at the end of looking at all the specimens, because a lot of times the pattern of species within your collection will help you identify the handfuls of specimens that were difficult to key out because of problems like I can't see the character I wanna see type of thing.
Right, Joel, back to you.

Joel Gardner 36:53
It so that about covers the T1 fan.
Umm, so at this point we could either go.
To call it 18 and do the species with the incomplete fan, which is gonna be most of the the veered autumn group.
Is going to be most of what goes this way or are we could go to Copa 39 and look at this species of a sick complete fan?
What do you wanna do?

Droege, Sam 37:26
Still chill, I'd say.
Like when making decisions, let's go with the lower number as a guideline, because we're gonna cover them both anyway.

Joel Gardner 37:36
OK.
Yep.
So yeah, I was and I and we did the we did the higher number when we did the speedom punctures 1 because there weren't very many.

Droege, Sam 37:45
Yeah, that's why I'm going.
Like if you wanna skip down and then we'll end up meeting in the middle.

Joel Gardner 37:50
Umm.

Droege, Sam 37:52
That's what we did the last couple times and that we skipped the farther one.

Joel Gardner 37:56
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 37:56
Either way, I'm is.
There's it doesn't make it really doesn't matter, because we're gonna cover them so good.

Joel Gardner 38:02
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I thought that was a good idea just because there weren't very many species that keyed out that way, and we could do it in one class.

Droege, Sam 38:09
OK.

Joel Gardner 38:10
But with the fan, there is enough species with a complete fan that it'll take a couple of classes to get through them, so makes sense to go into 18.

Droege, Sam 38:20
Yep.
During the 18 or 39.

Joel Gardner 38:26
So then.
So couple of 18 and these have a sternum.
Uh, whether it's ridiculous to tessellate or whether it's strongly rugose, so this is kind of hard to judge if you're not really familiar with what these surface culture terms mean.
So, like strongly rugose or reylos like what is the difference between those?
So it takes a little bit of practice to kind of be able to tell what is strongly rugose.
Umm, but Sam, do you have any?
Uh.
Veered items on hand.

Droege, Sam 39:15
Umm, I should or we can just show like a prisoner eye or something?

Joel Gardner 39:21
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Christoni will be a very extreme example of what sculpture looks like.
Weird autumn won't look quite as strong as that, but yeah, that might be still good to show.

Droege, Sam 39:37
OK, now let me see if I can pull up a a christoni and then I'll try and track down a different data which we don't see you very much in terms of, uh, it's I consider it to be more of a northern species.

Joel Gardner 39:52
Yeah, it does seem to be, uh, pretty northern species.

Droege, Sam 39:59
The.

Joel Gardner 39:59
And not as common as some other beard autumn group ones.
Even in the north.
Have probably add random FL time.
Those are the the most common species that you'll see in the veered autumn group subviewer datum.
Other very common one.

Droege, Sam 40:29
Well, we see a lot of versaterm down where we are now and called him and tried jamming them too.

Joel Gardner 40:34
Yeah, yeah, technically.

Droege, Sam 40:34
Are those considered to be in the?

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Joel Gardner 40:38
Technically, those are not part of the Nerd autumn group.
They look similar, but they're not part of it.

Droege, Sam 40:42
OK. Ohh.
Right, because they have the, UM, fully punctate 2 is that the split?

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Joel Gardner 40:55
Add Miranda M has a similar T2.
But.

Droege, Sam 41:01
But you consider adorando to be part of the verdam group because of morphology or molecular rather.

Joel Gardner 41:05
Yes.
And it's it's my life healer based largely the versaterm group comes out separately from the verdatum group.

Droege, Sam 41:12
And interesting.

Joel Gardner 41:18
If you look at the bar codes, which to be fair, the bar codes in the veered autumn group are not reliable.
So maybe if you got like genome wide data for both of these groups that come out to be the same, but.
Based on bar codes, we think that there's separate groups closely related but separate.

Droege, Sam 41:45
OK.
All right, I'm pulling up.

Joel Gardner 41:51
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 41:52
Prestonia you right now.
Get it centered.
I guess I I need to share my screen right?
We do that.
Little break.
And and you're going to zoom in and we're looking for a lot of surface elevational changes, little hills and valleys.
And more mountainous in a micro level.
If you were a tiny, tiny little person, you would have a harder time walking around on the surface.
Maybe take that game back down a little bit.
It's difficult to resolve at with these microscopes and things, but I think you can see the the group, the cavities and the sculptures, and dramatic for a dilectus differences in surface heights in there.

Joel Gardner 43:21
Yep.
And like I said, this is an extreme example of what strongly rules looks like.
So there is there are two species that will go.
Umm to complete 38 means that this serum strongly rugose is only two species that go that way at this point in the key vault autumn and add would I and they're going to look similar to this but not not nearly as strong.
So the those ridges will be a little bit shallower than you see here.
But.
Yeah, we can might be here.

Droege, Sam 44:07
I have one beer dotum.
Here, let's see if it can be.
Yeah.
So this looks like this fair dot I'm here.
Looks like it's gonna be a useful one to show, so it's going to be as Joel has mentioned.
Have hills and valleys, that'll be.
Present, but not as hard to climb for the tiny micro person you might wish to climb it.

Joel Gardner 44:36
Kind of wish I could be a tiny micro person on the surface of a bee.
That would I'll be able to find some diagnostic characters that way.

Droege, Sam 44:48
But you might fall into a spherical.

Joel Gardner 44:49
Because.

Droege, Sam 44:50
Then what?

Joel Gardner 44:53
Ohh yeah, that's it's a good point.

Droege, Sam 44:54
No.

Joel Gardner 44:59
I don't know how I'd get out of a spherical.

Droege, Sam 45:02
Right.
It's kind of open ended and then inside of a BB, you know, just kinda clamber around.
Make a little nest out of whatever.
Whatever's in there.
Alright, so here is a very Adam and let me go all the way up and we'll take a look at.
Means EPI sternum, which is sometimes called the pleura, but it's the area below the front wing in our terminology.
We can get this to.
There we go.

Joel Gardner 45:40
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 45:42
Umm.

Joel Gardner 45:42
Yeah, the plural, sorry.

Droege, Sam 45:43
And so they.
Go ahead.

Joel Gardner 45:47
I was just gonna go on a nerdy branch about technical morphological terms and what the differences between the plural on and the means of the sternum, but I don't know if that's really relevant.

Droege, Sam 46:02
Every bunch of nerds.
Uh, well, aren't they?
The aren't they essentially different names for the same thing, Joel or not?

Joel Gardner 46:12
Not precisely so that the MISO plura Ron is the entire middle segment of the thorax.
The the side plates.
Umm so everything below the four wing and the middle statement of the store actions that metal claron the medium is and it's it's divided into kind of two halves.

Droege, Sam 46:28
Uh-huh. Yeah.

Joel Gardner 46:34
So there's an upper part in the lower half.
The upper part is called the Hypo Immuron.

Droege, Sam 46:37
Mm-hmm.

Joel Gardner 46:39
That's that kind of square plate just below the wing and then the bigger lower plate is the.
These are the sternum.

Droege, Sam 46:48
Ah, interesting.
I consider them to be the same, but now I'm illuminated.
Yeah, this hyper Myron area basically is like a a hill, a large hill.
And sometimes in like schottis and a couple other species groups, what's in there isn't all wrinkly like a Raisin, but it's smooth and shiny and can be used as a character.
But most of the time, what you find is that the surface sculpturing is the same throughout these areas.

Joel Gardner 47:21
Yep.
So in dialect, just usually the hypothyroid on the means of a sternum are similarly sculptured so that you can think of them interchangeably.
We, but it's best not to get in the habit.

Droege, Sam 47:38
Umm.
So another way to that we often use to describe these as like the the wrinkly, like a Raisin, umm, type of topography versus inscribed with microscopic lines or with small bumps, you know, so it's very difficult to come up with a good language that is within our cultural reference book that immediately applies to like ohh I got it.
I know what I'm looking for, so the experience of looking at a lot of things and and looking at classifications of ruos and lugos is helpful.
So this still would be in the rugose category, but that's just defined by practitioners and it's difficult to, you know, into it I think sometimes for people.

Joel Gardner 48:25
OK.

Droege, Sam 48:40
Anything more there, Joel?
You wanna take over again?

Joel Gardner 48:45
Uh, sure.
Uh, can you zoom out a little bit on?
And maybe you've got there.
Ah, that yeah, all.

Droege, Sam 48:58
Like that.

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Joel Gardner 49:05
Yeah.
I just.

Droege, Sam 49:06
Anything else you want to see?

Joel Gardner 49:06
I wasn't quite sure what I was idea.
Just wanted to see like the broader context.
So that didn't look as strongly rugose is what I usually think of is veered out I'm having, but maybe that's just the lighting.

Droege, Sam 49:22
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Or it could be that I don't get to see verdatum that much, and I'm I've misidentified this one.

Joel Gardner 49:34
That's certainly possible.
All those weird autumn groups are tricky.
But it could be it could be viewed on them.
That is pretty strong, but I have a I have under the scope right now.
Umm and add Brandom as an example of what is ruello S, but not strongly rugose.

Droege, Sam 49:49
OK.
OK, take it away.

Joel Gardner 49:59
Alright, so share.
Alright, that uh, working OK?

Droege, Sam 50:16
Yes. Yep.

Joel Gardner 50:18
Alright, so this is, uh, add Miranda, and this is the meseta sternum.
So Hypoechoic Miron is up here and this lower plate down here is the means of a sternum and kind of got a shallow depth of field.
So it's not all in focus, but you can see there are all of these like hills and valleys like Sam was talking about.
There's all these ridges, but it's it's more it's less regular and it's not as there's not as much contrast.
Uh, contrast is kind of what you should be looking for with the strongly rugose sculpture.
When it's rugulose, it's still gonna be bumpy and and full of ridges, but they're closer together.
They're not as high and they're kind of a little bit more tangled together and the end result is that it has a little bit more of a uniform appearance.
There's not as much height difference, not as much contrast between those high ridges and shallow shiny valleys.
And so the and the other part, also the upper part of the means that the sternum tends to be more strong than the lower part.
So up here, this is a little bit stronger.
Maybe if you are unsure, you might call that more rugose, but as you go down and you get into the lower part of the meseta sternum, it gets weaker.
So down here, it's not so strong.
It's almost punctate even in this lower part.
So this is definitely more weakly rubios it's it's approaching that smooth more punctate condition, and this really is what distinguishes that this is for sure not your daughter because verdatum is going to have it all through those.
It's not going to be smoother in the lower part.

Droege, Sam 52:25
Right.
I think it's mentioned in your key or at least somewhere that that rugo state.
In other words, the not smooth no hint of pitting goes all the way to the is it the middle trochanter or the umm uh?
Or is it the?
Yeah.
And it it goes all the way down to where the leg joins.
I can't remember.

Joel Gardner 52:51
Yeah, yeah, I know.
It'll go all the way down to the to the middle.
Cocksure, so the middle, the middle of Cox show will be see.

Droege, Sam 52:56
And yeah.

Joel Gardner 53:03
Too far.
Alright, so the middle Cox is down here.
And.
There's the Bill Cosby show, and then in view it autumn, that strong rugose sculpture will go all the way to the bottom of the bees.
Have a sternum so down here.
And then here you can see it definitely gets.
This is pretty weak right here.

Droege, Sam 53:41
And other species, it'll be almost completely smooth, but almost always with inscribed lines, microscopic lines.

Joel Gardner 53:44
Yep.

Droege, Sam 53:49
Whatever.
However you wanna call it chagrining.
Tessellations.

Joel Gardner 53:57
Yes.
And I believe there is.
Actually, there's a couplet still to come that separates out whether the meseta sternum.
Oh, I know.
We never mind.
Yep, we already did that.
He's of a certain palmitate or notch, yeah.

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Droege, Sam 54:21
Regaining close to our time, what should we tackle on that?
Very last bit, you wanted to go.
So we're on complete 19.
If we're going the regular route, we'll be in the reverse of the regulation.

Joel Gardner 54:40
We could, if you have geared Adam and Atwood, I we could talk about though, which there's only two.

Droege, Sam 54:50
I do.

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Droege, Sam 54:52
Yeah, I don't have Edward.
I I have one Vera data.

Joel Gardner 54:57
OK, so that there's only two species that go to complete.
UH-39 that we're those throughout and get this 39.

Droege, Sam 55:06
And what do you wanna talk when you talk about Verdatum group?
Is there an implication that there are undescribed species in there in the east that we have to be just like they're just gonna get subsumed by the current?

Joel Gardner 55:25
Probably there is at least one undescribed species that we know about in the east.
Uh, that one actually has it complete, so it's pretty distinctive in that respect.

Droege, Sam 55:41
Uh-huh.

Joel Gardner 55:41
And there may or may not be more undescribed species.
It's hard to tell because the limits are really blurry.
It's hard to tell like what is described and what is undescribed and what is variation.
What is like?
Maybe.
Maybe they're hybridizing it's we're not 100% sure.

Droege, Sam 56:02
Got it.
Umm, I'll pull the beard out.
I'm up here for maybe the last little bit that I have and you can also suss out whether I really do have a very bottom here.
So I'm bringing that specimen that we showed before back up and which part of the specimen would you like me to?

Joel Gardner 56:13
OK.

Droege, Sam 56:21
And show first.

Joel Gardner 56:27
I.
Why don't we look at this studium?

Droege, Sam 56:32
OK.

Joel Gardner 56:36
It's we saw the megabuster in already.

Droege, Sam 56:39
Yep.

Joel Gardner 56:40
And it's not.
In the key, but Weird, Adam also has a little bit of a subtly different skewed them sculpture.

Droege, Sam 56:44
No.
Why I'm getting it ready?
Do you want to describe what that looks like?

Joel Gardner 57:04
Umm yeah, I was gonna.
Let's see.
I'm still sharing my screen right now, right?

Droege, Sam 57:10
No.
Do you want me to share mine or not?
Share mine.

Joel Gardner 57:15
And yeah, I think you can share yours.
I was going to put a bee up that had a smooth piece of sternum, but it turns out this one is not really very smooth.
It's this is more more ridiculous.

Droege, Sam 57:32
Right, so people.
Good.

Joel Gardner 57:34
I was going for.

Droege, Sam 57:37
All right, I will share and I have the skewed them up.

Joel Gardner 57:46
So there is a couple of there's kind of like two different flavors, if you will, of weird autumn group species.
Umm, there's a group of species where the skewed them is kind of coarsely, sparsely punctate.
And then there's another flavor where the sum is more finely and closely punctate and veered.
Adam is one of the more coarsely punctate ones, and that looks like it that looks right.
So the punctures here are pretty big.
It's hard to describe.
It would help if if we had a like an ethereal item for comparison.

Droege, Sam 58:37
Umm, I can pull one out.

Joel Gardner 58:44
Of the punctures are pretty big, and they're pretty sparse.

Droege, Sam 58:45
Oops, sorry.

Joel Gardner 58:48
There's not gonna be any that are closer than one puncture diameter, and they're they're definitely a lot wider than the perhaps it'll lines so that the general appearance of the skewed them.
Is just, UM.
A little rougher and a little dollar.
Sure.

Droege, Sam 59:15
Yeah, there's some definitely heavy microstructure in there.

Joel Gardner 59:20
Yeah.
And the the punctures are pretty big and that's well not not really big, but if you if you compare it to an Felton, you can it's.

Droege, Sam 59:31
You can quickly pull it off, you know.

Joel Gardner 59:31
And add random is another one of these and add random and say yeah are the other ones that look like verdatum in this respect.

Droege, Sam 59:44
They have some what?

Joel Gardner 59:47
Add Miranda.

Droege, Sam 59:49
Steve Jax is another very far north one compared to peer in the Mid Atlantic.

Joel Gardner 59:58
Yep.
So actually Sagax was described from Colorado.

Droege, Sam 1:00:06
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:00:07
It was the IT was described from Colorado.
But funnily enough, it seems to show up more often and further north than that.

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Droege, Sam 1:00:29
All right, I've got a FL team here.
Yet specimen lined up.

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Droege, Sam 1:00:45
Don't lose the tags on the other one if you.

Joel Gardner 1:00:47
I'm also working on another one that has those finer punctures.
Alright.
So.
I've got a a bee ready.

Droege, Sam 1:01:30
OK, I am actually right.

Joel Gardner 1:01:32
I think you're at all.

Droege, Sam 1:01:34
Right into the focus area here.
So this one is an NFL team.

Joel Gardner 1:01:48
I.

Droege, Sam 1:01:51
Or purported F altham.
I think Jason identified that one.

Joel Gardner 1:01:53
Yeah.
So this looks a little ditch.
Coarser than then I would expect it looks a little bit more veered out on like but.

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Droege, Sam 1:02:02
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.

Joel Gardner 1:02:09
There are some.
There are some closer, finer punctures in there, and especially if you look along the midline and closer to the corruption the lines, there's definitely some smaller punctures in there, and there's some that are closer than one puncture diameter.
So this, yeah, this this could be that more finely punctate look that that other flavor of the veritatem group has.
And it is very subtle and it takes a lot of practice to to see it.

Droege, Sam 1:02:41
Right.
You want to show.
Yeah, that's when I wasn't even aware of.

Joel Gardner 1:02:48
So you kind of need to look at it and direct comparison.

Droege, Sam 1:02:53
Yeah.
And also this is not the greatest definition through online viewing.

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Droege, Sam 1:03:01
You want to throw yours up, dear, Are you ready?

Joel Gardner 1:03:04
Yeah, yeah, I've.
I have one up there.

Droege, Sam 1:03:06
OK.

Joel Gardner 1:03:17
Alright, so this is another unknown figured out.
I'm group maybe something related to vacate him, but this is another example of that more finely punctate visa visa skew them.
So a little bit denser.
UM, the punctures are a little bit smaller, not looks a little bit smoother, less less coarse, less widely spaced.
Uh again.
Pretty subtle, but the general look is that.
Uh, it's just.
Smoother in general.
So if you think of it like sand paper, it's more of a fine grit than a than a coarse grit.
So again, it'll help if you can actually see this in direct comparison, but something to look out for.

Droege, Sam 1:04:25
Well, I think people are learning why they struggle.

Joel Gardner 1:04:30
Yes, even even we struggle.
I look at specimens.
Occasionally, and that identify it, and then I'll look at them and I'll say ohh, why did identify that as as we're Saddam, that's obviously an agrande.

Droege, Sam 1:04:51
Yeah.
Well, yeah, we all, we all do that.
But was this one that you had on deck here?
I I missed that.

Joel Gardner 1:05:03
I don't know what it is.
It's something in the yard on I'm groups that's probably related to peccatum, but it's it's an odd one and I'm not sure.

Droege, Sam 1:05:05
OK, unknown.
Right.
And you and another thing that is you're hearing from Joel, is that even if you had molecular data, it's not necessarily going to resolve all these little problems.

Joel Gardner 1:05:17
You.

Droege, Sam 1:05:34
I mean, I guess if you had whole genomes, but if you're just doing the usual Co one level kind of scan of a bunch of specimens, you might, uh, well, actually, Joe, what do you think like let's say I have my collection, I magically have a Co one for every single specimen.
What's my percent of getting it to something that I might call species level with simply molecular data?

Joel Gardner 1:06:07
4 the veered item group or for dialogues in general.

Droege, Sam 1:06:12
And I like this in general, but feared Adam as a subset.

Joel Gardner 1:06:18
Ah, if.
And are you talking about, like, species diversity point of view?
Like percent of species you can identify or percent of individuals.

Droege, Sam 1:06:35
Species.
So here's my question.
I've got all these dialects.
I want the molecular people to tell me how many different species I have.
I don't even necessarily have to put a name on every single group, but I do wanna be confident that I have picked up all the species.
How far off am I from being able to make that statement?

Joel Gardner 1:06:59
So Jason actually did a paper on that.
Umm.

Droege, Sam 1:07:03
Mm-hmm.

Joel Gardner 1:07:03
If you look up DNA barcoding and nightmare tax on uh, Jason actually took all the available our codes and calculated how many of them add distinct bar code gap which which means like can you identify them to species and I don't remember what the exact number was but it's a.

Droege, Sam 1:07:22
Umm yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:07:30
You can identify more to species than you can't, so the majority of of species you actually can identify from barcodes, but the proportion that you can't is is significant.
I wanna say that it's in the realm of like.

Droege, Sam 1:07:46
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:07:50
Maybe like?
20% ± 10 they're the ones that you can't identify.

Droege, Sam 1:08:01
Right.
So in a lot of ways, you know, with a lot of equivocation here, what you're seeing is that a, an expert, you were Jason, for example, from a region who's had a lot of experience, is at this point gonna do a better job of giving you a solid list of dialectics species.
Then a molecular robot.

Joel Gardner 1:08:28
Yep.

Droege, Sam 1:08:31
So you're not out of a job, is what we're saying.

Joel Gardner 1:08:36
Yeah.
At least until next Gen sequencing becomes cheap and commonplace.
I don't know if that will happen.

Droege, Sam 1:08:43
Right.
Well, I'm still waiting.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:08:44
But here's another.

Droege, Sam 1:08:46
I I'm still waiting for CO1 to be cheap and commonplace.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:08:51
It's so Sam.
Uh, a related question.

Droege, Sam 1:08:53
Yeah. Uh-huh.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:08:54
You hear me?
Right, Joe, what do you think about bee machine?
That's that's the other, you know, hope for a shortcut for people who don't wanna get to your level of expertise.
Do you think that AI is gonna give us answers on really good images of specimens?

Joel Gardner 1:09:12
I haven't used to be machine myself that I've I've seen it and it is fairly impressive.
I if I recall, I think it was like something 90 to 95% success rate that it got, which is pretty good.
But but if you're doing like scientific research, 9990 to 95% success is not good enough.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:09:35
Mm-hmm.

Joel Gardner 1:09:44
Umm, so it's it's not there yet and I think it could get there for maybe some like easy ease it could get there, but I don't see how AI is ever going to be able to identify things like a lot of dialectics.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:10:04
Umm.

Droege, Sam 1:10:05
Yeah.
Is the 90 to 95 I mean.
So sometimes in that kind of world where you're looking at asking AI to to differentiate something, if you give it a set of extremely different specimens or a species, it's like, hey, no problem.

Joel Gardner 1:10:09
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:10:22
But then you say, OK, great, now I want you to do dialectes and then it basically ***** with the ones that you're going to have the most trouble with anyway.
So like, is it useful to have an AI machine that gives you the easy to identify species visually like we can all you know, identify them pretty quickly after a little bit of learning curve is that that useful or is it just nice or a morpho sort feature or a double check when it really can't get to the, you know differences in the dialectic species and you're still basically stuck with using a human and even more stuck, right.
So if it's 90 to 95, when you're giving it a, can you tell us xylocopa from a mega Kylie from a osmia versus, you know, the verdatum group or anything in the dialect?
This group where's the game?

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:11:22
Well, one one thing that the one thing that they I can do which will be really interesting is it will look at characters that Jill and Jason have never considered.

Droege, Sam 1:11:23
That's what I don't.

Joel Gardner 1:11:27
Interesting.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:11:33
And this is pure anecdote.
I only heard this from from other folks, but if you just did really good images of wings, my understand is that Brian Spiesman working with with Jason was able to get really good separation of dialectic species on the wings a lot, which are not something that are fully characters.

Droege, Sam 1:11:53
Why not?

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:11:54
They're typically used.

Droege, Sam 1:11:56
Uh, shouldn't.

Joel Gardner 1:11:56
Ohh yeah, I do think that has some promise.
Yeah.
So be machine.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:12:00
Uh-huh.

Droege, Sam 1:12:00
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:12:01
You actually just feed it just like pictures of lives.
These from the field and that is much more prone to error, but yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:12:10
Yeah.
Yeah, for bombas?
Yes, for tile like this, no, no, no.
Yeah, I agree.

Joel Gardner 1:12:15
But if you if you trained an AI on like very specific like standardized images of wing morphology and then you can actually like put landmarks on it, or whether a different veins are that actually has a lot of promise, it's been successfully done in other groups of these they call, it's called wing printing.

Droege, Sam 1:12:16
Well.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:12:32
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.

Joel Gardner 1:12:42
And yeah, that I think that could definitely work.

Droege, Sam 1:12:48
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:12:48
There was a there was a.

Droege, Sam 1:12:49
I mean it's very two dimensional.
So that's a a big plus.
You can actually put them between cover slips or something and get a very accurate angle and flatness which is hard to do on the you know, a body with goopy wings or whatever is happening.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:13:08
Umm.

Joel Gardner 1:13:10
Yeah, there was actually.
There was a paper that I was coauthor on about dialect just from Yucatan, and the primary author on that paper actually tried to do wing printing on a bunch of really closely related species, and there was no good separation based on the wings. So.

Droege, Sam 1:13:32
Hmm, but there was other other morphological traits did separate those, or was it just molecular?

Joel Gardner 1:13:41
There were morphological other morphological traits that separate them, so at least that level of wing printing doesn't work for really closely related species.

Droege, Sam 1:13:44
OK.

Joel Gardner 1:13:55
It might work for more distantly related species, and if you did a more in depth analysis of wing morphology like this in this paper she just did like a couple of landmarks where the veins intersect.
If you did like a more Polygon based analysis, you might get somewhere, but it would be tough.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:14:16
It just.
If I could do a follow up it it it's so if we wanted to get 90% or 99% accuracy in in diagnosing something I can tell you that pretty much 100% of the people that I know who've spent 100 hours on dialect just do not have 99% confidence and what they they can ID at least I'm speaking for myself, right.

Joel Gardner 1:14:25
First thing that.

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David Cappaert (Guest) 1:14:44
It's it's just, there's no certainty which gives an argument a little bit in favor of the machine and barcodes.
If you can afford the time and and money to do it because they get me, at least eliminate a lot of possibilities and maybe I get a this is 90%, it might be X which I I can't get beyond 90% just with the key unless I have a reference collection which almost nobody does.
Does that make sense?

Droege, Sam 1:15:17
Yeah.
And it's a jam almost any way you go, unless you want to devote your 10,000 hours.

Joel Gardner 1:15:18
Uh.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:15:24
Yes, yes.
And I can tell you that that most people it's not their dream to spend $10,000 hours on dialectics, although sure I'd do it if I had it.
I'm too old for that.

Droege, Sam 1:15:37
Yeah.
You actually aren't, and it is very Zen and it is a good way to pass into the next sphere of life.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:15:49
Yeah.
Says you, Sam.
I mean, you're you're pretty biased.

Joel Gardner 1:15:54
Yep.
Also say that for a lot of species the the confidence in my IDs does approach on a percent.
It's just those those, those few tricky groups where where it'll be less.

Droege, Sam 1:16:08
Right.
Well, and probably if you look at Joel's tricky groups, it's gonna be a tricky group for me, for Jason, for the AI, for the robot, for B machine, and even the and even molecular.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:16:23
Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam 1:16:26
So if they're recently derived, then the boundaries are fuzzy and so you know a solution is feared.
Item group.
I don't know which one tegular group right.
I have that problem and so and and so forth and that's, you know, for most things you would like more theoretically, but it may not matter how much does it matter, right.
So we're not talking about things that have grossly different life histories.
The fact that they're recently derived and may or may not be a species based on several different sorts of ways of looking at the you know the next question down is what if we just lump those together?
What differences is it going to make if we're not confident in our identification levels for those things, or it's ambiguous as to whether they're even species to ecological conservation management decisions and where?
Where does it draw the difference between functionally important and academically important?

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David Cappaert (Guest) 1:17:40
Yeah, that those are interesting questions.
And I I can tell you the reason why I've spent lots of time on on dialectics is because unfortunately, it's not only a super hard group, it's a super important group.
So if we just called all of the specimens in the projects I work on Dialectes SP, we would miss most of the diversity amongst bees in the projects we work on.
So every time we can make a split that's legit.
We're really making adversity estimates much, much better.

Droege, Sam 1:18:10
Yeah, I think I'm calling for A to go further down than dialect.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:18:11
You know, so.

Droege, Sam 1:18:15
A species?
I'm talking about we can go down and with confidence like Joel saying and then you get to these groups, these segments where we're really, it's really tough to tell where the breaking lines are and and that's so like tegular group adorando group, that kind of thing, the same thing with nomada, same problem for certain groups.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:18:43
Hmm.

Droege, Sam 1:18:44
And then others like you know, you can identify some of these nomada 100% of the time, but the bidentate groups are just a like I don't, you know, who knows what this is going on in there?

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:18:56
Umm.
Is it one other thing I'll throw out a pitch for.
I mean, this is just something that I do is is for the for the dialectes in the projects that that I work on, we made our own key.
And so if we say something is species X, we've documented what that means in terms of what it means that the sternum looks like.

Droege, Sam 1:19:08
Umm.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:19:16
What the pit density is like?
What the soup to pipilas looks like.
Etcetera, etcetera.
So if you document that stuff, then at some later and and well, actually and and Joel has looked at that key and very helpfully said ohh, the picture of you #7 is actually such and such as species.

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Droege, Sam 1:19:22
Right.
Yeah.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:19:34
It's so if if you're really rigorous about recording like fixed morphological traits to specimens that you give a a morphospecies name to, that's way better than calling it Ms #7.

Droege, Sam 1:19:45
Yeah.
Umm.
And then you can go to drive up to Joel's office and he'll feel obligated to go through your collection with you.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:19:50
Right.

Droege, Sam 1:19:59
And then maybe you can put put real names on.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:20:00
OK. Yes.
Thank you for the offer of Joel's time soon.
Super helpful.

Droege, Sam 1:20:10
Well, I mean, effectively you don't have any other options.

David Cappaert (Guest) 1:20:14
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:20:18
So you can negotiate with Joel offline.
So I don't, you know, I don't.
I feel like we're kind of discouraging here at the end, but it can.
These things can be done.
There are people more than when I started that are interested in taking things like dialectics to the end.
There needs to be and it's maybe catching up some, but there needs to be a funding stream for that, like Joel's position.
That would not probably have existed 10 years ago at all.
That wouldn't have been a consideration, but you know, there's these little signs Canadians are way ahead of us on a lot of things.
But you know, I think, umm, where moving slowly in the right direction so that people more things can get identified and keeping the specimens around, at least your set of morphological specimens is super useful because these things shift and change.
And you know, there's discoveries and you know you want to ohh contrapositive your ID's with someone else's for veracity sake.
When you say it is something that's like, yeah, you can come and look at him.
Well, well, Claire as given the Woohoo signal.

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Droege, Sam 1:21:51
Umm, I think we're probably at a pretty good stopping place there to stopping people are mystified.
Maybe, yeah.

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Droege, Sam 1:22:04
And we'll we'll put out.
We'll have some more discussion, but clear and I casually at least positive that there would be when we come back, it would be a bring your pictures.
Bring your specimens and let's do a mystery bee for the community.
Get together, you know.
Like what is this?
You know, Eric showed some earlier today and they'll be lots of things probably like can't quite tell send it to me, our can't quite tell this group or but others will be like ohh I know what that is or it needs to be divided into 2 possibilities and you need to look for this and I think that's potentially helpful.

Joel Gardner 1:22:54
Uh, yeah, I think that sounds like a good idea.

Droege, Sam 1:22:54
OK.
Yeah.
So we'll give people two weeks to get good pictures and things like that, Tacoma.
All right.
Thanks everyone.
As usual, Joel and for making the time and Claire for putting it all together and everyone who makes comments for being engaged.
Right.
Double woohoo.

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