109_Lasioglossum species_2022 Canadian Dialictus Key_couplets 6-10_Joel Gardner_Jan 24 2024

January 24, 2024, 6:02PM

1h 11m 16s

Droege, Sam 0:13
So that's where we're picking up.

Joel Gardner 0:22
OK.

Droege, Sam 0:22
Goal and start? Yep.

Joel Gardner 0:27
So cool.
What 6 is where this set of kind of closely related species gets pulled out that are all characterized by.

Adamson, Nancy - FS, WV joined the meeting

Joel Gardner 0:48
This really quite coarse strong sculpture, especially on the cheap, primarily on the measles zoma or the thorax.
So the the two characters that it mentions in the couplet are the.
That's the the punctures on the skukum.
And then the mediastinal coarsely rugose.
And then the the other one that it that it mentions is the proposed Yum with this this strong Carina, that's separating the proposed the, the lateral and the posterior surfaces.
So there's a lot of species that can have either one of those characters on their own, but for this carpet, you're you're looking for both at the same time.
Which can be tricky in some cases.

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Droege, Sam 1:56
And can you turn up your speaker?

Joel Gardner 1:57
Ah.

Droege, Sam 2:00
Got it.
Thank you, Sir.
Sorry, bill.

Joel Gardner 2:06
Yep.
Did you?
Need me to turn?
Do I need to be louder really?

Droege, Sam 2:16
No, no, no, it's it's on us.

Joel Gardner 2:19
Oh, OK.
All right, so I'm going to try to.
Demonstrate or show it be.
That has some of this strong sculpture.
So I'm gonna.
I have my microscope working again, so I'm going to try to share my screen.
Uh, if I can remember how to do it.

Droege, Sam 3:01
And I can always show things now on on mine if if we need to or bounce back and forth.

Joel Gardner 3:08
Oh, it says.

Droege, Sam 3:08
Ohh Joe, sorry I need to center.

Joel Gardner 3:11
Yeah, it says that I don't have permission.

Droege, Sam 3:13
Now you're good.
Now you do.

Joel Gardner 3:17
OK.
Here we go page like.
OK, so now you should be seeing the bee.
I say did that correctly, and when he sees it.

Droege, Sam 3:49
They sure do.
What you have on that?

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Joel Gardner 3:52
This is laser gossom all the penny so.

Droege, Sam 3:52
Then.
There.

Joel Gardner 3:57
This is one of the species that will go umm through Tuplet 6 and it will go along to couplet 7 and it's one of the more common ones.

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Joel Gardner 4:11
There's two really common species.
I maybe 3/3 really common species in this group.
As valid Penny and crysania and then oceanic come.
And also be quite common.
And then there's a couple other ones that are much, much less common.
But this is one of the probably one of the big two.
Yeah, very widespread.
You can kind of like pretty much anywhere in the country, US or Canada.

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Joel Gardner 4:45
And.

Droege, Sam 4:45
I would say not so much in the Southeast.

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Joel Gardner 4:54
Yeah.
Yeah, you're probably right.
Come to think of it.

Droege, Sam 4:58
We see it every once in a while, but it's it's really uncommon in the mid Atlantic and I think as you go further South, you know you're picking up a lot of things like Cressoni and Brunei.

Joel Gardner 5:09
Yes.

Droege, Sam 5:09
And what is it, remind Goddess?

Joel Gardner 5:12
Yes, it does tend to it.
It does occur, but it's a it.

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Joel Gardner 5:16
It tends to be like a a Prairie grassland associated bee.
So you find it most often in those sorts of habitats, but like anywhere, there's, like, open grasslands, you can you might be able to find this fee.
But here you can see.
Umm.
If you look at the skew Dum you can see how it's kind of or sleep punctate.
So I'll I'll zoom in and try to get more.
More focused on these punctures.
And that is way too bright.
So see if I can.

Droege, Sam 6:05
You might.
You might try and flip and you might try and flip your microscope plate underneath to the black if it has it, then that's good though OK.

Joel Gardner 6:14
Yeah, I don't.
I don't have that.

Droege, Sam 6:21
That's good though.

Joel Gardner 6:23
Yeah.
So you got the size of these punctures.
Like if you look at enough punctures on laser bossam, you kind of get a sense for like what is coarse and what is fine and when you talk about coarse and fine sculpture or puncture is what we're really referring to is the size.
So, like how big the punctures are and also the depths.
So how deep they are?
How distinct and you can also talk about that with just like microscope or in general so and we say coarsely rugose uh what we mean is that the ridges that are sort of like tangling together to make this rugo sculpture, that those ridges will be very.
I'm very high with deep valleys in between them, so these these course punctures here.
They're very deep.
They're very distinct.
They don't blend in to the rest of the microscope.
As you can see, like up near the front of the beat where this median line is, there is some much finer micro sculpture there, kind of dulling the surface, but the punctures will still stand out. Really.
Obviously they don't blend into that at all.
Where when you have fine punctures, they can sometimes they'll be less distinct and they can blend into that background microscope.

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Joel Gardner 7:52
Sure.
More so, that's really what you're looking for with this course versus fine room microscope.
Sure.
And punctures and the other thing to look for is like if you don't have a sense yet for what is big and small punctures you can sort of compare with other areas of the beat.
So if you look at the head and you'll get those punctures, you can see that there are much, much smaller and much less distinct than the punctures on the skewed them.
So it these these punctures?
Here they're like I don't like 50% or twice as big as the function on the head.
So you do that kind of a comparative comparison with punctures on the beach.
Yeah.
Yeah, those are pretty big punctures on the scutum.
Maybe I should go to complete 7?

Droege, Sam 8:50
Hmm.
Joel, would you also say that they tend to be larger bees and the lazy gloss on dialectics group and also have coarser, more rugose plural sides too?

Joel Gardner 9:05
How they do?
Yes, yes, the it's not the the court, the, the, that Clara, they're real sculpture on the clear out that is in the.
That is also in the key.
I haven't talked about that yet.
Umm, the size is not mentioned in the key I believe.
But you are correct, yes, it's not mentioned in the key because it's not that reliable.
It's kind of hard to judge, like, especially with dialectics.
Umm, there's kind of a general rule that.
The small species are always small, but the big species are not always big like you can often get runch specimens.
They'll be much smaller than usual, so size is not always a reliable character in in the laser Lawson.
But these this group is species do tend to be on the big side.

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Joel Gardner 10:13
So yeah, now that you mention it, I can.

Droege, Sam 10:21
We're saying big and small and you give us the I mean, these are matters of millimeters, right?
But what are we talking about?

Joel Gardner 10:33
When I'm talking about big and small punctures.

Droege, Sam 10:38
Pizza size millimeter branch for a for those who's what?

Joel Gardner 10:38
It's ohh guys.

Droege, Sam 10:43
6 millimeters for that group.
And then the smaller ones or it's not a big range, right?
So the smaller ones are, uh, you know, 4-5 and the bigger 16 to 8 and then you get to the census, stricter groups which you know, you can move up to 10 millimeters, but it's a it's a kind of thing that again, if you have, you want to have access to known specimens and you have to look at a lot of stuff.

Joel Gardner 11:04
Yeah.

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Droege, Sam 11:15
And again, right at the beginning when you have your 5000 dialect, thus specimens in your collection don't just dive in and pick the first one just to go through them a bunch of times and sort them into your groupings, and you'll get a like.
You get these flavors.

Joel Gardner 11:36
Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's not a huge difference when you actually measure the bees, but if you have like a like a box full of laser blossom, you'll be able to see like ohh those ones are bigger than the others.

Droege, Sam 11:53
Yeah.
And a lot of times it's really the small ones.
The smallest ones are the ones that really stand out.

Joel Gardner 12:05
Yeah.
Alright, so here's the mazeppa sternum.
This is not Alba penny anymore.
Uh, because all of Penny actually has a little bit of a smoother mesaba sternum, and it can actually cause a lot of confusion because it's not quite as rugose as this.
So you can occasionally miss it and like decide like ohh that's not course enough and you you know the other way and the key.
So I can show that later to show it that looks like, but this is cressoni, which is a very, very, very coarsely sculptured bee.
And so this is like kind of like what the extreme end of that course sculpture looks like on the on the MES EPA sternum on, on the plural.
So there's very strong ridges that are kind of all tangled together to make this this rugose sculpture and they're very pronounced with very deep, umm.
Deep hits not round punctures, but deep hits in between them.
So it's like, uh, it's like crumpled, like a crumpled tinfoil kind of texture.

Droege, Sam 13:27
Umm.
Or a Raisin.

Joel Gardner 13:31
Yeah. Yeah.
Raisin.
That's another good one.
So that's what you're looking for.
In addition to those those big punctures.
Today at Cressona is the the other one of the the big two common species in this group, and this one tends to be more of a umm, more of a woodland forest.
Also, mountain Bee, I'm not not found so much in the prairies.
Uh, so there's not as not, you can get both of them in the same collection occasionally, but they tend not to overlap a lot.
Alright, now I'm going to get the Alba penny back.
And I'm going to show our little bit smoother sculpture.
All right, so this is all the penny.
Get this in focus.
And here is the meat of the sternum.
And it's still pretty coarsely sculptured.
There are no distinct punctures there.
And you can see like there's all those those high ridges tangled together.
But it's not as extreme as it is in christoni.
So much they're they're they're kind of like closer together, so it gives more of a uniform appearance.
So you kind of have to, umm, kind of know what you're looking for because you you could possibly you could call this more rugulose.
But this is when you would want to look at those other characters like this huge, umm, punctures.
And also the proposition.

Droege, Sam 16:03
You have a good shot of the podium there.

Joel Gardner 16:09
Ohh did I alright?
Maybe I don't even.

Droege, Sam 16:11
Yeah, you could see you could you could you could see the edge from the lateral edge, it was really prominent but.

Joel Gardner 16:19
Alright, let's see.
Yeah, I can.
I can get that back.

Droege, Sam 16:23
And actually now Cressoni is a good one to show because I often use the fact that the top Corina tends to be absent in the central part and it's like little.
I caught a little hearts, umm on the back.
You know that are formed because they just curve over, which is umm uh distinct.

Joel Gardner 16:44
Yep.

Droege, Sam 16:48
I think 2 cressoni and then it's got some interesting hair patterns on the very back back side that are good.
And I I find that alpha penny is often got very, very white wings.

Joel Gardner 17:05
Yes.

Droege, Sam 17:06
Compared to the other groups, which is hard to see on your screen because it is so light, yeah, I was gonna ask if we could switch at some point to Sam's and almost be like a side by side on those two things.

Joel Gardner 17:18
Yeah, we totally.

Droege, Sam 17:19
What?
What would you like to see on the two wings?
Like pull up an Albany, pull up the persona and I and like, OK, I'll, I'll work on that.
And then when I'm when I have it in things, I'll let you go.

Joel Gardner 17:31
Yep.
So yeah, we can we can talk.
I think it's a good idea to talk about kind of the difference between cressona and allophony, because those two.
They can get mixed up and they're not that hard to tell apart if you know what you're looking for.
But then you get mixed up, so it would be good to can I do the comparison between the two, but for a notifying the group umm this is the last really important character.

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Joel Gardner 18:00
This Carina, right here on the proposed Yum.
So you can see like this is a side view, but you can kind of see like the posterior face of the podium also in this shot and you can see like from the lateral part of the proposed Yum where it goes on to the posterior face, there's this sharp edge, it's not smoothly rounded, there's a there's a Ridge here and it starts at the bottom and it goes all the way to the top of the properties.
So the lateral surface and the posterior surface are completely separated by this sharp edge, so that is this is what you're looking for with that propositum here after.

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Joel Gardner 18:49
And there are actually lots of species.
Yes, they are not in this group that have a proposal.
Carina.
Like this, but they're not going to be as coarsely sculptured.
So again, you gotta you gotta.
You gotta look at everything.

Droege, Sam 19:06
I'm gonna throw out there with the the blunt like the a good picture of the Carina.
I just put a link in the chat.
If you go on to, we don't have this included yet on the discover like characters like as an image, but if you go to some of the least 2 glasses, particularly persona I, I look at the pictures and then on the species page and actually throw down to see the thumbnails underneath it will link you to more pictures and we have some really good ones of that feature that we just haven't gotten a chance to reorganize so that they're more obvious.
Just putting that out there.

Joel Gardner 19:49
Alright.
So I think that will just about cover couplets 6 uh.
We could, umm, let's see.
I could show the alternative states for comparison that might be a good idea.
So I'm going to get another common species.
And this.
This is lazier, gossom incomplete gum.
Which is extremely common in the West.
It doesn't occur in the east, but an extremely common over in my part of the world.
And this one has uh Karina on the proposed Yum, but it looks different from what you'll see in this this cressoni Albany group.
And then also.
If you look at the medieval sternum.
This is a pretty good example.
Here is this the means of a sternum in in complete them is not distinctly punctate, but it's more.
Umm, more what you'd call Ember Cage?
Or maybe weekly rugulose.
There's a few kind of punctures.
Kind of visible, but they're not really strong, but you can see this is a lot smoother than what we just looked at with christoni and L with penny.

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Joel Gardner 22:04
Umm, there's not really any high ridges or or deep hits on this.
This integument year.
And then if I just twist the bee.
Should be able to get a good view of the podium.
So incomplete them.
As I said, also has.
This Karina.
Uh, and you can see it right there, right here.
This is that lateral Corina on the proportion, but you can see it doesn't quite make it all the way to the top.
It's broken, so there's a Carina up here at the top of the proposed Yum right?
Here there's a line you can kind of see, and there's another one over here.
So there's a strong crying out the top, and that is actually a good diagnostic character for this species.
And then there's another Carina down here at the bottom, and it doesn't get all the way to the top.
There's this smooth, round and surface in the middle.
Umm, so that is the kind of the key that like, OK, this one does not go on to complete 7.
This is a something else.
Alright, so those are the alternative character states. Uh.

Droege, Sam 23:59
I can.
I can show the Joel if this is a good time for you.
I can show the the weight brown versus pale wing stuff.

Joel Gardner 24:08
Yeah.
So let's see what couple is that that would be jumping ahead a little bit.
Yeah, jumping ahead a little bit to complete at 9.
So yeah, we're gonna do that with kind of skipping over brunori and oceanic comma.

Droege, Sam 24:25
OK.
Right not to be come back because they are also can be super common in some places.
Alright, I'm gonna share then and.
Umm, stinking.
Right.
Can you see that clear?
You sure?
Hand.
OK, so I'm not going at Super, super high.
Umm.
Magnification.
But what you're looking at is the wing of cressona eye.
So this is more typical of most of the dialectics group and most bees in general, which is dark and just keep in mind that the lighting isn't like absolutely optimal and you can look at some of this in the better picture better online.
But what you're looking at is a.
Basically, the veins are a darker brown and actually if you look at the little minute hairs on in between, they're also brownish.
OK, now the contrast.
I can move this correctly will be with Alba penny.
And then there's a series of other bees that also had this pale venation that there's not that many, but the you know, it should be a trigger like ohh, what's going on here?
This is really pale, it's.

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Droege, Sam 25:50
Something that is going to be different.
So if we look at this one now, so the the veins here don't really show as white, but this is probably more typical, which is there's sort of a light yellow sort of definitely not dark brown.
And you can see even more which really adds to the whiteness.
Let's call it of the wings that the little minute hair is even at this, you know, like lousy magnification.
Slash videography.

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Droege, Sam 26:23
You can tell her a whole heck of a lot.
Taylor, they're pretty much white then the cressoni.
And So what that presents is like ohh those wings are pale or are white.
And so that should be a little like ohh pay attention because you don't really get a a bee species that has sometimes white, sometimes brown.
Usually that's pretty fixed.
So anyway, to all they have more talk about there.

Joel Gardner 26:57
Yep, I just mentioned that's generally true in the east, but when you get into the West, there are a lot more species that have pale wings, like Alva, Penny does.

Droege, Sam 27:04
Uh-huh.

Joel Gardner 27:09
It tends to.
It's a thing that you tend to see more in hot, dry habitats.
Generally, the wetter and colder that habitat, the darker the bee is.
So you see, there's a lot of desert species with pale wings, and then there's a lot of sand species.
And then there is species that are variable, so species that can live in multiple types of habitats.
There are a few that can have white or dark wings the same species, but those tend to be Western, yes.

Droege, Sam 27:42
Yeah. OK.
I have a definitely eastern bias.
OK, I'm going to turn it back to you.

Joel Gardner 27:49
Like uh, Hudson Hallum is a good example.

Droege, Sam 27:56
All right, now you should have it back now.

Joel Gardner 27:56
All right.
All right.
So I'm just going to.
While Sam was talking about.
The wings I was setting up some abdomens.
Has the abdomen is another good way to tell apart allophony and cressoni?
Now they have the deeds. Here.
Let me just.
Yeah, in focus.
And share my screen again.
Alright, so here's the abdomen of Alberta penny.
And this is a.
There's nothing really special to special about it.
Umm, it said.
It's fairly typical for a dialect.
Just abdomen you have, like these patches of like, oppressed home and Tom, that basil corners of teach two.
Then you have more on teeth.

Droege, Sam 29:21
And.

Joel Gardner 29:21
Three kind of forming a distinct band across the whole thing, and then you have these dense fringes at the edges of the rims.
Uh, yes, maybe I can turn down.
Flighting a bit here.
Not so glaring.
Yeah, that looks better.
So you can see like here on T3 the rim is kind of like got this dense fringe.
Quit getting brighter.
It's got this dense fringe of of CD on the rim.
And then if I just to move down.
Have a Crescent eye.
Year.
And you can you should be able to see right away that this this abdomen looks a lot different from what you just saw.
So you still have these this suppressed home and Tom in the corners of T tube and you look at T3, there's a lot less of it.
So it doesn't.
It's kind of absent in the middle.
It doesn't form a band all the way across.
It's only in the corners and then especially the rims.
Cressoni has these very bare rims of T2 and T3.
There's hardly any hairs there at all, so there's none of those dense fringes.
There's a there can occasionally be a couple of Spire city on the rim, but it's never going to be like a dense fringe like you just saw an alpha penny.
So that that is a another good way to tell these two apart.
They personi with these, uh, kind of smooth glabrous dark rims.

Droege, Sam 31:49
You can also see in your picture a little bit of what often presents, which is on umm T3 on the far lateral sides in addition to the little short appressed hairs are usually these very bright white, longer slightly.
What am I wanna say?
Slightly plumose hairs that I, you know, I think of as kind of a distinctive character.
So, but you know, sometimes they're missing.

Joel Gardner 32:24
Which ones are you referring to?
T3.

Droege, Sam 32:27
Be in your yeah.
See on your picture on the far right you can see a few of those long hairs.

Joel Gardner 32:34
You mean the ones on the far edge?
They're kind of like glowing in the light.

Droege, Sam 32:37
Yeah. Yes.
Yep, over the black dot or whatever that is.

Joel Gardner 32:44
I had a.
Yeah, that's that's part of the text on the label.
Umm, that's.

Droege, Sam 32:49
You think?

Joel Gardner 32:52
That's actually a common thing in most dialects.
Just is that you'll have these longer hairs on the sides of the segments.

Droege, Sam 32:57
Umm.

Joel Gardner 33:02
And I didn't actually know that was diagnostic for cressoni.
Uh said doesn't. Almost.

Droege, Sam 33:10
I use it.
I use it.
I use it as my and often a quick and dirty when I'm just glancing through things like ohh that's a that's a cressoni.
But you know from all the others?
Umm.
I get to the that and they're very bright white, which might be the reason they stand out as different.
And maybe they're slightly more plumose or something.
It certainly just keys me into doing a double check of other things, but it's something that stands out.

Joel Gardner 33:34
Yeah.
I guess.
Yeah, all the penny does have those.
So they're right here, those longer hairs.

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Droege, Sam 33:46
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 33:46
But because it tells tend to be a hairier be in general, they blend in more with the rest of the segments, so that that's probably what you're seeing.

Droege, Sam 33:52
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 33:57
They're just more distinct.

Droege, Sam 33:57
And you can see the you can see the paler bination now and your wings pretty well.

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Joel Gardner 34:05
Ohh yeah.
Yep, so very clear wings and you kind of have to look closely to see the hairs on the wings because they're white.
And it won't show up the step outside.

Droege, Sam 34:18
I would also say that in general in the East the the Alba penny tends to the thorax tends to be a strong blue and in the cressoni eye it tends to be a strong brassy green.

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Joel Gardner 34:36
Yes, I agree that does tend to be the case.
Yeah, so probably not as reliable, but it's it's kind of like in the same vein as like using this size, so can work.
It's kind of a general trend, but less reliable than the and the structural characteristics.

Droege, Sam 34:58
It is, yeah.
Still in have a comment in the chat that we might want to dress.
The hairs must vary because the buttons on the 2010 paper look carrier.
In fact, the amount of hair looks very similar to pictures of Alex Penny as well in the 2010.
Of cressoni, I think that's what Dylan referring to.
Welcome to pop in there.

Joel Gardner 35:28
Uh.
Yeah, I guess you must be talking about Christiania.
Looking hairier.

Droege, Sam 35:42
In the, it sounds like maybe in the photos on the publication I'm not.
I'm not looking at it, so I'm not sure.

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Joel Gardner 35:50
Ah, let's see here.

Droege, Sam 35:53
While you're looking that up jaw, I'll just say that what Joel presented on screen is what I would call super typical and I don't know what the picture shows, but I don't think you don't usually see.

Joel Gardner 36:00
Right.

Droege, Sam 36:07
Umm.
An unbelievable amount of hair on cressoni rear ends.

Joel Gardner 36:12
And.
It the the the hairiness does vary as well.

Droege, Sam 36:20
And.

Joel Gardner 36:25
So one thing that can happen is the hair can get worn off.
So the the bee can actually look smoother than it normally is.
But even if they're not worn, uh, there is individual variation.
So like some christoni are that you look at, there will be no absolutely no punctures and no hairs at all on the rims of T2 and T3.
He'll be totally smooth and and bald.
Uh, but other specimens will have some scattered minute punctures, and they might have some short fine scattered CD on those rims.
So it won't be totally smooth, but it will still be much less hairy than elephant.
But yes, there there is variation.

Droege, Sam 37:34
Do you want to talk about Bruner aim?

Joel Gardner 37:39
Sure.
And do you have specimens on hand? Yeah.

Droege, Sam 37:43
I do.
Yeah.
Do you want me to just do the OK?

Joel Gardner 37:46
I do not.
I do not have any prayer right.

Droege, Sam 37:49
OK, I can just go right to the hypostome wall cavity.
You wanna talk about that?
And I'll I'll put that up.
Is that good?

Joel Gardner 37:56
Yeah, sure.
Uh.
Let's see page 58, figure 66.
Which this is.
This is in the 2010 paper.

Droege, Sam 38:21
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 38:23
And actually having having trouble opening that PDF now, so I can't get to it.
I don't know what's.
Wrong.

Droege, Sam 38:36
Here I can I can share.
Getting over.
Wait, you eat you?
But that page 58.
Yes.
And the Deep South, there's another species.
Why I always forget it begins with R, but I wanna call it when they got it.
But it's not.

Joel Gardner 39:08
Uh, reticulatus.

Droege, Sam 39:10
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 39:12
Say yes.
So yeah, when you get to complete 7.
Yeah, it'll be this character with the hypostome macaroni and whether they're diverging or parallel.
And that's actually pretty easy to see.
As long as the underside of the head is visible, if the head is kind of tucked under, it can be difficult, but as long as if you can see it you can see it and it's it's not hard once you do.

Droege, Sam 39:47
So.

Joel Gardner 39:50
But yes, there are actually two species.
That have this.
One of them is only southern, so it's only in the heat of the eastern US species that Brunei occurred in Canada.
So that is in the newer Canada key.

Droege, Sam 40:10
So oddly, because Brunei is one of the most common bees around here, I apparently have not put it into the synoptic collection because it's so easy to ID.
So I don't have one.
Really.
Yeah.
And so, I mean, they're all over the place, but I don't have time to pull them out.

Joel Gardner 40:27
What about reticulatus?

Droege, Sam 40:27
And then go.
Yeah, I'm looking now.
Yeah, I got it.
So we'll use it.
We'll find it in infusing.

Joel Gardner 40:34
All right.
Well, OK, looks like Claire.
Looks like Claire has Chris.
Up.

Droege, Sam 40:41
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 40:46
So yes, they, well, they OK.
I should also mention Albanian. Chris.
Sonia, I are similarly hairy over most of the body.
It's just those rims of T2 and T3 where the primary difference is going to be.

Droege, Sam 41:10
Sorry.
Yeah, back, honey.

Joel Gardner 41:14
And you can you can see it on stage two in this picture you can see that broad.
All shiny rim of tea 2T3 does look Harrier in this picture.
This is probably more probably a bit of a Harrier specimen, but part of that is due to the angle, so there'll be all these short seedy on the segment, and if you, if you look at the abdomen when it's tilted at an angle like it kind of isn't that picture.
All the seedy are gonna be more visible than they would if you're looking straight down.
So you you can't see as much of the surface underneath, so it's it's a little bit of a Harry or specimen, but also a little bit of an optical illusion.
And then, yeah, here's Albert Penny.
And yeah, actually this specimen looks a little bit worn to me, so that's a little bit less hairy than usual.
So I I think I see what you're getting at with them looking similar, yeah.

Droege, Sam 42:27
Giving full some pictures from discover life too.
I'll for Bernerie while we're together talking about particular. Well.
Well, Claire does that.
I have reticulum up and uh.
So should I go ahead and share and we can look at the hypostomus cavity?

Joel Gardner 42:42
Yeah.
Yeah, but yeah, yeah, so.

Droege, Sam 42:47
But when it when it comes up check out.

Joel Gardner 42:48
For those those points in the in the key are probably not the the best for comparing the rims of T2 and T3.

Droege, Sam 42:56
Yeah, check out all the mites on this.
This is very unusual in terms of on a dialectics thing, but there they are all over.

Joel Gardner 43:06
Google.

Droege, Sam 43:07
But umm, if people can see my pointer, this is what Joel is talking about here.

Joel Gardner 43:10
Speak.

Droege, Sam 43:13
It's a little more disguised on the other side, but the hypostome will cavity I think of it as the place for the tongue to rest.
It's the channel and normally it follows in a parallel lines on either side of the.
All that weird tongue architecture, but in this case it's sweeps out.
So this is a concave area and there's a corona between whatever you want to call this the general area and the edge of the crony and the edge of the hypostome will cavity.
So it's not the cavity is still holding the tongue.
This is just a ohm.
Ah, I don't know what to call it.
A hollowed area and you, but you can very clearly see there's a difference in sculpturing.
And this corona is here.
And Joel, if you want to talk about the coronal differences between Brunei and Reticulata M, We can, but the orange legs of reticulated are really a better character because sometimes the relative raise edness is tricky.

Joel Gardner 44:25
Uh, yeah.
So Bruneian reticular autumn are tricky.
Do you tell apart?
And I don't actually remember off the top of my head when the character is where to do it.

Droege, Sam 44:44
Uh, so in the key, the one compound of the character is that they both look like this, right?
Big scoops out of the front, and that's gonna separate almost all the other species in the east except for headered Nathan, which is tiny and looks completely different.
And so if you had comparative material, you can see a very strong Carina here.
And you looked at Brunerie from the side, you'll see that in this one particular item that this line does not project upwards.
In other words, it's not like a big fence.
It's a line and it's raised a little, but when you look at Brunerie, you'll see that this whole line is, umm, is sitting proud of the surrounding surface.
But and I'll back off here.
What really stands out when you pick up one of these bees is the red legs or the orangish legs in reticulate of so brunori never has that and we look tell me tell you what we see thousands of them and so.
In particular, item my opinion when I see it in the South, it's coastal plain deep sand, type of material and it's mostly lower coastal plain.
Brunei can be most anywhere in the East, particularly South of, you know, the Mason Dixon line, essentially.
So those are my vibes, but these orange legs are really, I think diagnostic when splitting the two.
Otherwise, it's got, you know, it's got core sculpturing and it's got the the shovel shaped hypostome wall cavity and from the top you might easily mistake it for cressoni in terms of the look, there's differences probably in the abdominal hairs, but these are the characters here red and scoop that are going to tell it apart.

Joel Gardner 46:42
Seems pretty.

Droege, Sam 46:48
You can see also the Laboral area as a reddish component as a lot of times these do and it's very southern, so you don't know if it gets it might get to possibly Virginia on the coastal plain does not get to Maryland and may just get up to the Carolinas.

Joel Gardner 47:12
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm not.
Not too long ago, I actually.
Was checking some specimens and I found a specimen I called BRUNERIE in the collection and decided that it was actually reticulum.
Say yes, I was just checking the 2011 Eastern US key and it doesn't actually mention the red flags in that heat.

Droege, Sam 47:38
Umm.

Joel Gardner 47:40
Uh, because I guess because Jason and me too, to to some extent we don't like to rely on color characters because a lot of times they aren't really reliable.
They can vary Butch.
In this case, it might have been a good idea to put the red flags in the key, but you're not in there.

Droege, Sam 48:04
Hello there was this.

Joel Gardner 48:06
In the 2011 key, but that is something you can use.
Uh, yes, there's the.

Droege, Sam 48:10
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 48:13
You kind of got to look at the hypothermal, Carina and lateral view otherwise to tell these apart, there's also this Pearl trochanter character.
Umm.
And yeah, Sam mentioned that Brunei looks like Chris Onii from dorsal view and he's totally right on that.
I can't.
I can't tell them apart, just looking at the top.
Like if you see Brunei and Crisona eye from the top, as far as I can tell, they're identical.

Droege, Sam 48:49
Everything.

Joel Gardner 48:49
You you have to look at the underside of the head.
You have to look at the high blastoma in order to identify Brunerie and reticular.

Droege, Sam 48:57
Yeah, I'll.
I will.
I will mention having seen thousands of Bruner eye and Cressoni is that there is a slight difference in the proposal triangle area.
It's thick it, you know, it's like one of those things that after looking at thousands of them, you get get used to looking at that, but it's not something that is easy to define or articulate.
You have to look at it, but be that as it may and also would not have quite the same rear face of the prodigal area.
But again, you flip it over and it's pretty obvious.
And after a while you learn which ones to flip over and which ones not to.
You know, double check your bruner eye.
But almost always I'm I do turn them over.
So it is, as Joel has mentioned, not an absolute kind of thing.
So it's like I think that's Brunei based on these vibes.
But I'm gonna turn it over and look for the hypostome cavity, because that's super easy.

Joel Gardner 50:04
Uh.
Yep, I guess, yeah, it is possible that there are more subtle characters you can use that you can see from the top, and it's just no one has noticed them because it's much easier just to look at the hypostome will herina.
Alright, so those are those.
Species. Umm.
These are just the weird hypostome ocarina.
And most.
Dialects are going to have them parallel, and you're going to go to a couple of eight then, and that takes us to Oceana come, which is like if it's all of hennion cressoni are like the top one, and two species in this group, Oceana comes as #3.

Droege, Sam 50:50
It.

Joel Gardner 50:59
So this one is are quite common, not as common, but definitely not rare, and it has a lot of kind of unique characters.

Droege, Sam 51:13
First question.

Joel Gardner 51:13
It has the same kind of course.
Sculpture and large punctures as the other ones, but it's also got yes umm.
This hearing on the proposed Yum that not only goes straight up on the sides and gets the top, but it it actually goes all the way across the top of the podium too.

Droege, Sam 51:26
And so.
With that.

Joel Gardner 51:38
So it's it's like it's like it is an egg aposto.
Amen.
Almost.
It's like if you got a good pasta, man.
If you're doing like genus IDs, bag of Hausman, have this this ring.
This complete ring around the back of the tripod, Yum and Oceana come is like that too.
It's less circular.
It's more like up and then straight across, so it's more rectangular than a ring, but it's the same kind of complete Carina over the whole back surface.
And then it's also got these punk tape tegula so not to the same extent as you see in like the gem group or lazy awesome you are, but definitely more punctate than than usual dielectrics.

Droege, Sam 52:32
Umm.

Joel Gardner 52:32
So I actually don't have any oceanic come on hand at the moment either on this.
This is a eastern species.
We don't get it out in Washington, but if you have.

Droege, Sam 52:44
I should have.
I should have some.
I'll also say that once you learn that proposal edge, all you have to do is glance at it from the top and it's a it's an ID ID sperm, but you have to spend some time looking like.
Look, I have one.

Joel Gardner 53:06
Yeah, I should also mention that.
If you are using the 2011 key to the Eastern US, DC, uh ladies and guys and oceanic come is called nymphaeum in that key.
So Nymphaeum is another name that when Jason was doing the 2011 revision, he decided like ohh this other name is older.
This should be the valid name for that species, but then after that was published then he kind of figured out like ohh wait an MPR is actually not valid for these kind of complicated nomenclatural reasons.
So the the valid name should actually be oceanic.
I'm like it was in the in the 2010 Canada Key, so it it's it's a bit of a unfortunate mess, but yes, nuclear.

Droege, Sam 54:09
And.

Joel Gardner 54:09
I'm an oceanic come same thing.

Droege, Sam 54:14
Fortunately, they're not splitting them.
They're just changing the names.
OK, I'll share and I'll have oceanic come on deck here.
And click on that you go to here.
OK.
Can people see that?
Yes.
OK, so here's the Carina.
So here's the scutellum adenota.
This is the proposed Yum.
There's the abdomen and this is the rim between the upper surface and the rear facing surface.
And there's just this really straight flat raised line, very prominent and the this color blue, it's not showing up well here.

Joel Gardner 55:03
The.

Droege, Sam 55:05
This color blue is pretty also indicative.
Not in.
In a color sort of way, which is it's very blue.
And these striations here also very prominent, but it's that line right there.
You see that line?
You're done.
You know there's no break like in Cressoni and it's very tall and it's very straight.

Joel Gardner 55:33
Yep.
And then I can you show the Taylor too.

Droege, Sam 55:38
Ohh yeah yeah, actually I don't even know that character cause I never have to use it, but let's check it out.
If the darn thing in focus.
I think I have to bend it a little.

Joel Gardner 55:55
If you're in the West, it is probably a good idea to not just look at the proposed Yum Parina and call it done.
Uh because.
There are undescribed species in this group and I don't remember off the top of my head, but.
They might have a similar looking for podium.

Droege, Sam 56:31
OK.

Joel Gardner 56:33
But not the punctate.
How you all that is that is still going to be unique.
But in the east, for if you see that that straight across Karina there that's gonna give you Oceana.

Droege, Sam 56:39
Ready it? Umm.
OK, it's not a great shot because I got a lot of glare going on here.
Maybe I can change this a little bit, but you can see at least in that part of it there, there's a bunch of of pits going on.
Trying to change some of the lighting which I turn this I will it's going to.

Joel Gardner 57:04
Yes.
Yeah, this is actually a pretty good with you.

Droege, Sam 57:06
We're just that time, OK?
We're not in a rush here, but had that OK?
So our so I what time is it?
We're pretty much at time, but OK, we're we are personally not in a rough, alright, so maybe we'll wrap up oceanica and call, yeah.

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Joel Gardner 57:25
Yeah.
And that when we're done with oceanic come, that will pretty much cover this group of species.
Umm, that, that kind of cressoni group.

Droege, Sam 57:36
Yep.
Right, so I is this showing up well enough those pits on on the screen there on the.

Joel Gardner 57:40
The system.
Yeah, I can see them.

Droege, Sam 57:46
OK.

Joel Gardner 57:47
So they're they're going to be less obvious, more sparse towards the outer edge of the tegula.
So what?
You're what you're really looking at is kind of like the middle of the chair you are and the inside edge.
There's going to be these distinct punctures and most dialects I go and get very faint small punctures towards like that.
Very most anterior margin, but uh.
This species oceanic and is going to have them like throughout the middle area too, and down under the posterior edge, and they're still going to be much finer and sparser than they are in, like the tabulare LLC, those species, but much more obvious than anything else.
Not in that group.

Droege, Sam 58:42
So I'll point out here that you can really see this very raised.
So normally there might be a sharp edge, or these striations might go to the the corner, but you don't really see this kind of thing where the the actual edge is raised, so you know Carina, like Joel said, Agapay scrum kind of thing.
So there it's reflecting.
Very nicely.
Take a look at it.
Well, are we where?
Sounds like our time is up for the day.
Now they're questions that linger.
I'm not necessarily about to identifications, but our friend Kim have the question about lights on dialectics.

Joel Gardner 59:24
Song.

Droege, Sam 59:27
That she's noticing more of them.

Joel Gardner 59:28
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 59:30
Wondering if washing is reduced the amount of mites that people are seeing even recently found higher fan covered up.
But you know, like him, if you're still on, you should unmute and explain this better yourself.
While she's doing.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 59:47
Alright.
Can you?
Can you hear me? All right?

Droege, Sam 59:48
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 59:50
Yeah, so ever since I don't remember which time that Jason mentioned that maybe he would change the name of the fan because he wasn't seeing mites, I started paying attention more and I I'm finding mites quite often, but it's always on unwashed specimens.

Joel Gardner 1:00:00
Right.

Droege, Sam 1:00:05
Umm yeah.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:00:06
And I was just thinking I probably should start documenting it, cause maybe it's just certain species that are still carrying mites.

Droege, Sam 1:00:14
Yeah, could be, are are you talking about dialectics group though?

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:00:17
Yes, dialect.

Droege, Sam 1:00:18
Oh cool.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:00:18
This I'm specifically talking about dialects, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:00:22
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:00:22
Do you know which species tend to have lights the most?

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:00:27
No, because I haven't been documenting it.
I've just been noticing it, so I'm I'm gonna try to do that.

Joel Gardner 1:00:33
Has.
I have noticed this kind of a funny trend.

Droege, Sam 1:00:37
And.

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Joel Gardner 1:00:40
I have noticed that lazy got some micro aphytis tends to have T1 covered in mites relatively frequently, but The funny thing is that Michael Aphytis is one of the species that doesn't have a fan, so it actually has the fans secondarily lost, and that's the one that has mites all the time living.

Droege, Sam 1:00:51
Hmm.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:00:57
Oh.

Droege, Sam 1:00:58
And I'll get this.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:01:03
That's interesting.
Well, the one yesterday I couldn't actually get an ID on umm because it's in a group that I haven't yet spent a lot of time on, but it was going to like tailor A but I couldn't even see if it had an open or a complete fan because it was so covered.

Droege, Sam 1:01:06
Umm.

Joel Gardner 1:01:13
1.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:01:24
It was so densely covered.

Droege, Sam 1:01:26
Wow.
No, and our.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:01:27
So and that specimen, I don't have in my possession.
I was just looking at it briefly yesterday from someone who was visiting, and so I I won't have a chance to even try to figure out what it is.

Droege, Sam 1:01:39
Uh, can we say whether they're good mites or bad mites?

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:01:44
And me, I don't know.
A good night from a bad night.

Droege, Sam 1:01:45
Anybody.
Well, some some are theoretically like ohh we have a a A might pocket on these wash or or maybe on the central strict two group of lazy glasses because we like mites.
And so we want them because they're cleaning up or who knows what.
And then other times, it's like no mites are bad, they're sucking our little bee friend to death.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:02:09
Well, they weren't veroa mite, but I, to me they look like typical mites that I would have seen on just a regular Lazio blossom.

Droege, Sam 1:02:12
Umm.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:02:18
Since you stripped you, they it didn't.
They didn't look menacing or scary.

Droege, Sam 1:02:19
Move.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:02:23
They just look like a regular phoretic mite.

Droege, Sam 1:02:27
Maybe.
A a minute that you would take out to a bar.

Joel Gardner 1:02:28
Like.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:02:32
Yes, exactly.

Droege, Sam 1:02:32
That kind of thing.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:02:33
Yes.
Check.
Yeah, basically they look friendly.

Droege, Sam 1:02:37
Yeah.
So, Kim, tell us a little bit about your efforts to do lazy blossom dialectics.
Species males and females of the tree part of the world that you live in, and where is that world?

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:02:52
Uh, well, it's it's on pause right now because there's a bunch of other things happening, but I hope to get back to it.

Joel Gardner 1:02:59
Yeah.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:03:01
So working on trying to create a guide to the males of the southeast area.
UM mail dialectics of Southeast area, but like I said, it might not be able to resolve to each species.
It might end up creating groups, but that's my I'm attempting that I I like I said it's on pause.

Droege, Sam 1:03:19
Umm.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:03:26
So.

Droege, Sam 1:03:27
What else?
What else could be more important?
Kim, come on.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:03:31
Uh, that's a good question.

Droege, Sam 1:03:36
Your comment.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:03:36
Not very much.
Just filled season filled season starting.

Droege, Sam 1:03:41
Alright, well I I'm going to.
I'm still.
I'm gonna hold you out to the group as like, Kim is working on guides and developing these things.
Why Angelus, too?
Or what about the rest of you?

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:03:56
Yeah, that's the question everyone else.

Droege, Sam 1:03:57
OK.
Yeah, yeah, step up.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:03:59
Come on.
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:04:05
So these beads with the mites?

Droege, Sam 1:04:05
All right.

Joel Gardner 1:04:08
These are from the southeast.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:04:11
Yes, mostly.
I'm looking at southeast species right now, but I also have quite a bit from the from the East Coast and northern areas such as South Dakota.

Droege, Sam 1:04:15
Umm.
His team.
And how are you?
How are you killing them?
Are you putting them into ethyl acetate or like why?
Why do you see all these mites?
Presumably you're not washing them and you're not.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:04:36
So I.

Droege, Sam 1:04:37
You're not going into bull traps.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:04:39
No.
So there are a lot of the bees I'm looking at are in bold from bull traps, but occasionally we're out collecting with Nets and I I need to.

Droege, Sam 1:04:46
Any.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:04:50
Like I said, I need to start documenting which ones so that it can go into our database and then we can like look and see which ones are.

Fortuin, Christine left the meeting

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:04:57
If these are net collected ones and what species them actually seeing them on, I just only recently started looking when I started hearing you guys say that they didn't have that mites weren't seen a lot and I thought, why haven't seen a lot.

Droege, Sam 1:05:02
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:05:04
It's.

Droege, Sam 1:05:10
Right.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:05:11
That's true.
And then I started seeing them.

Droege, Sam 1:05:13
Uh-huh.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:05:15
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:05:15
So might be good for other people to also keep track of that and send it to Joel and Kim.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:05:18
That's what I think.

Droege, Sam 1:05:22
Because and I would say that we use even when I'm collecting with a net, I'm putting them into soapy water.

Joel Gardner 1:05:28
What do you do?

Droege, Sam 1:05:30
So I think they do every once in awhile I see like a random mite on something and I think it's probably just loosened up from a bumblebee or an osmium or something.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:05:31
Ohh.
OK.
Ohh.

Droege, Sam 1:05:41
And ended up so it's not.
I don't think bowl or water collected things are or liquid.
Let's say are probably appropriate for might studies, but people do still do it the old way.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:05:51
That.
That's it.
I see what you're saying.
So yes, when we go out net collecting, we're using a cyanide kill jar.

Droege, Sam 1:06:00
Yeah. Night.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:06:01
So not not liquid, yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:06:01
Night.
It's so good.
Yeah.
Still hard to get these days.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:06:06
Right, I agree.

Droege, Sam 1:06:11
I'm learning.

Joel Gardner 1:06:12
Yeah, that is a interesting finds.
I think in your region in the Southeast, that Michaela parties does not live there, so you must be finding something else.

Droege, Sam 1:06:22
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:06:23
So interesting to find out what it is that is also carrying these mites.

Huntzinger, Kim - REE-ARS 1:06:24
What?

Droege, Sam 1:06:30
Our micro lipotes similar to tabulare group stuff or I can't remember.

Joel Gardner 1:06:35
No microlite point is it's kind of like it's own thing.

Droege, Sam 1:06:37
OK.

Joel Gardner 1:06:39
It's not part of any distinct species group.

Droege, Sam 1:06:44
OK.

Joel Gardner 1:06:44
It's kind of its own weird, odd ball.

Droege, Sam 1:06:50
OK.
Well, you know, always something interesting.
Any other.

Joel Gardner 1:06:59
The.

Droege, Sam 1:06:59
Any other questions?

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Droege, Sam 1:07:00
Any other might observations?
Uh.
Who are you to?

Joel Gardner 1:07:13
That's it.
All bees leaves the mites attached.
I really have no idea.
Umm.
Possibly, but I think it would depend a lot on how much you jostle their shook them.

Droege, Sam 1:07:31
Yeah, I don't.
I don't even know what the, you know the parameters are when you put them into cyanide, whether you get a lot of might drop off, you know like is it always the case that they're always there?

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Droege, Sam 1:07:43
Is that the perfect thing or is it also that there's a loss of mites in those situations, too?
Or perhaps you know I have an impression that things like mites and ticks are less.
Are less or more immune to things like cyanide, and they may last for a while and so they could theoretically even be crawling around on the specimens that have expired in a cyanide collection.
But you know things to look at.

Joel Gardner 1:08:15
If that is also a good point in theory, you could kind of suss that out by looking at photographs of live specimens in the field and seeing whether or not they have lights on them.

Droege, Sam 1:08:27
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:08:30
And I have to admit, I haven't.
Really, I can't recall seeing any photos of live dialectics that had a lot of mites.
So yes.

Droege, Sam 1:08:38
They're so tricky to to photograph, you know, they're just so small to begin with that when you look on our naturalist, there's just not many, you know.

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Joel Gardner 1:08:44
Yeah, they're trying to photograph.
They're tricky, definitely, but you should at least be able to see if there's mites or not.

Droege, Sam 1:08:54
Umm do you think that the mites are let's say you are taking a picture, would and maybe we don't know this answer.

Joel Gardner 1:08:55
Blurry photo.

Droege, Sam 1:09:04
So you have a very basal part where the abdomen is connecting to the thorax, and then you have, you know, the upper part of T1 would might just be on the face that of the abdomen that's facing the thorax.
Very basil.
Or do you think that they would be much more at the top of the fan?
Let's call it area or is unknown.

Joel Gardner 1:09:30
Well, in census stricto, they tend to start the base and then spread off.
The more of them there are.

Droege, Sam 1:09:40
Umm.

Joel Gardner 1:09:42
So I would predict similar behavior in dialect dress.

Droege, Sam 1:09:50
Yeah.
Yeah, it's interesting.
So for example, if you get a a mic filled, bumblebee or osmia, it's almost always on the thorax and I think they are, you know, sucking the juices is I totally may not know this, but of the specimen.
And so these are, if they're on the abdomen in that might pocket area, they probably are scavengers, one would suppose.
Alright, things to find out. Uh.

Joel Gardner 1:10:30
Yeah, hard to get good out of photos of the lights.

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Droege, Sam 1:10:31
Yes, baby, yeah.

Joel Gardner 1:10:34
Yep it is.
But if there's a lot of them, you should be able to see if they're there or not.

Droege, Sam 1:10:40
Umm, maybe we should invite.

Joel Gardner 1:10:41
Even if it's over.

Droege, Sam 1:10:44
Uh, you know, there's a guy named Barry.
I can't remember his last name at.
I think he's at Michigan or one of the Michigan's who was a specialist on be mites.
Maybe we should get him at some point to talk.
Talk to the group and then we can get some ID and some things like that, and I think he's willing to ID.
At least he was in the past.
But I'm not sure of his status now.

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Droege, Sam 1:11:14
OK.

Sarah Kornbluth left the meeting