107_Lasioglossum species workflow and morphosorting_12 20 2023

December 20, 2023, 6:05PM

1h 11m 26s

Maffei, Clare J 0:07
What does that January 7th or something?
January 10th, so we've asked January 10th in some capacity and Sam and Joel have a bit of a plan today.
So it's it's your turn now.

Droege, Sam 0:27
Maybe.
Maybe I'll start and then I'll kick it over to Joel.
So what we're gonna do today is we're initially gonna talk about workflow, particularly with lazy blossom, but this goes in general and then open up the door for individual questions.

Joel Gardner 0:35
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 0:44
It might be about guides.
It might be about identifications.
It might be like, hey, here's a picture of a specimen that I don't know what this is.
Uh, can you help put?
We'll put that up and we'll try and CSI that.
It could be really anything with, you know, let's say the initial focus at least being lazy blossom.
But you know, if things taper off, we'll go to other topics.
So I think I think we wanted to talk about here is OK.
So we all are involved with big projects.
We have at some point we'll have a bunch of pinned, labeled specimens, and I'll point out that you always want to have for those of you who haven't done this already, you want to have an individual number marker or something on each of those specimens.
So you can move them around, but in the end you have boxes and boxes, trays and trays of specimens, and now you have to identify them.
What's that workflow?
So I'll give mine.
They'll give his other people who are on the list can talk about theirs too, but we end up with a bunch of specimens in boxes, and they're not in any particular order as they get pinned, right?
That's not efficient.
You know, we have people who are volunteers doing the pinning.
They pin all bees and Wasps because you know, sometimes they make mistakes.
When?
What's a wasp?
What's a bee?
So we're confronted by that.
Then we turn those boxes over to someone and it could be a technician.
It could be a visitor, it could be Sydney or lab manager or could be the volunteers.
And we say, hey, move these into categories of similar looking things and even a person who doesn't know anything can like, move all the bumblebees into one place, the green bees into another.
And depending on how discerning they are, it's useful.
So that's one less time that I have to pick up something and move it around.
And also I'm confronted by clear groups of things, so I have fewer.
Fewer times at 1/2 to organize.
Like let's say I have 10,000 bees, so I'm might be scattered across 25 boxes.
So rather than having to scatter across all 25 boxes and each box being some random subset I have, I can hone it in like ohh all.

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Droege, Sam 3:03
The dialectics can go in one box.
All the green bees another and then I can more quickly move through those with fewer labels being having to be printed out.
And so when I do that, I've now got a Morpho sorted collection just by eye, not even under the microscope.
It's what I do is I just go through everything and I identify everything that I can lazy blossom or not that I can look at under the microscope without having to look up any key stuff.
I set aside everything that like I need to spend some more time on this, or it's a particularly dirty specimen.

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Droege, Sam 3:42
Or it's something that I know that I need to consult a guide or a key of some kind on, and so I very quickly take care of most of the collection and what that looks like for us, because we also have to prepare as we do these identifications for data.

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Droege, Sam 4:02
Try a little short of breath data entry.

Joel Gardner 4:05
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 4:06
So what that looks like for us is we use foot by foot pizza boxes with foam in the bottom because lot of workspace.
So we'll put a debt label in front of a row of bees.
OK, so not under the late under the specimen, so it's very easy for the data entry person to see that.
So there's a determination label and we're now going to like bigger format determination labels.
So there's less guessing about what was scribbled on there and then to the right, left to right, top to bottom, is a set of the specimens that are associated with that debt label.
So each specimen does not get a debt label.
It's just the front of the row.
If it's vertical, it's a female.
If it's horizontal, it's a male.
We organize everything so that all the males are always, if present, at the end of that row, and we pin the very first label of the very first mail in that row in place.

Joel Gardner 4:54
Like.

Droege, Sam 5:07
Because what happens?
Labels start spinning and then all of a sudden it's not clear to the data entry person.
Am I looking at a male or female and we make have big spaces, relatively big spaces between each specimen in those boxes because we're scanning things in and we're scanning things in using a barcode reader and even with it, Nick down to a fairly precise level.

Joel Gardner 5:18
It's.

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Joel Gardner 5:31
You know.

Droege, Sam 5:35
It's sometimes what happens if they're jammed together, as you would say, packing and sending to someone.
The problem is if you're trying to scan those, sometimes the scanner will pick up something above, below, left or right, and it create obviously creates problems.
So we minimize that by really spacing things out.

Joel Gardner 5:55
Fix it.

Droege, Sam 5:56
And then I'm in the end of the specimens are now entered by someone.
Umm, usually Sydney then goes back and we have some routines that check for incorrect names.

Joel Gardner 6:09
So.

Droege, Sam 6:11
You know, comparing a master list to the list that we're entered and then we also look and do counts to make sure that everything went in there wasn't something missed.
Spacing them out helps with the missed counts too, because it's relatively straightforward to hit all those specimens, and that's that's pretty much it.
So I'm going to turn it over to Joel and you, joy, you can tell me or tell all of us, how do you deal with you got.

Joel Gardner 6:33
Thank you.

Droege, Sam 6:41
OK, I'm sending you 10,000 specimens.
Or are you collected for a big project?
What do you how do you approach dealing with that?

Joel Gardner 6:52
Ah, hey, so if if it's just all sorts of these, like all the general and all the families, I'll, I'll start by just, uh, sorting them out by genus.
And if you don't know all the general by by site, then you could do it.
Sam does and just do more for sorting, but I usually know all the generous, so I just sort those out first and then if I have a box of bees, that's one genus, but all the species are mixed together, I'll just start identifying the species from the top left.
Uh like.
Am I good?
Sam said that you you could do this out.
He does and identify the first specimen and I'll keep going until I get to a specimen that I don't know or I'm having trouble, or I run into an obstacle in the key, and when I run into that, I'll set those ones aside somewhere.
And it make it know which myself like.
This is a difficult one.
I don't know.
And then I'll keep going through and then usually what happens is the hope is that I'll find more of those difficult ones.
So then I eventually could accumulate like a series of these ones that I didn't know before.
And once you have a series instead of just one D, it often happens that it that, like you could have said, clicks for you.
So, like bees, especially lazy lost some but it, which is what I'm usually identifying.
There's a lot of morphological variation, so he had like 1B and maybe it's like kind of A at one end of the variation spectrum where it's a little bit duller.
It's a little bit more rugulose, but then if you have a series of them, you're like, oh, this species usually is more shiny and punctate.
So having a series can often help you get difficult IDs.
So if yeah, if if I get a difficult one that I don't know like don't struggle with it just kind of set it aside and then yeah, just keep going through the box left to right then.

Maffei, Clare J 9:17
So Sam gives the advice of these per minute.
Don't spend more than 5 minutes on a bee as you go, which is tough.

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Maffei, Clare J 9:26
Joel.
What?
What do you think about that?

Joel Gardner 9:27
Umm.
Umm.
I don't.
I don't do that. Uh.
That's sometimes you can't help.
It like sometimes it's just.
I mean, if you have a really long key, sometimes it's just gonna take more than 5 minutes, especially if you have to go into the collection and get comparative specs and then still look at.
It depends on whether you're.
Doing like initial sorting or whether you're trying to get final determinations for initial starting.
Yeah, you could try during the five minutes for B rule and then anything you can't get in 5 minutes.
He's you set aside and do later.

Maffei, Clare J 10:22
Yeah, I think that's what Sam's advised for me.
And I think that some of our earliest classes with you and Jason of going through those tricky groups has really helped with my own sorting and just being like, OK, I know that's in the version like I know it's one of those groups instead of having to go through them quite as narrowly and then coming back in that kind of string way that you were both talking about.

Joel Gardner 10:27
I think.

Maffei, Clare J 10:48
So if you're having trouble with that, folks, we have some early classes posted on those.

Joel Gardner 10:48
Yeah.
Actually, with the lazy you go awesome.
I often know which ones are going to take more than 5 minutes without having to try doing it.
Like uh, like it wanted like, ohh, that's in the mirror to.
OK.
Notice there's some questions in the chat about add random versus versus Sodom.
So like if I see those when I'm looking at a box of places also like ohh those are gonna take more than 5 minutes.
I'm gonna set those aside and get a series and do them later.

Maffei, Clare J 11:23
Speaking of Admiral Gum and Versaterm, that is the first question in the chat and also in two emails that I received.

Joel Gardner 11:25
Interesting.

Maffei, Clare J 11:31
So I feel like maybe talking about them, maybe if you have the chance or definitely returning to them when we go back through the dilectus key or multiple times because so many people have asked the question also have some questions then chat about identifying an alcohol.
So whichever we want to tackle first.

Droege, Sam 11:51
Well, maybe we should ask you, Claire.
How?
How you do your sorting and approach a big collection and then open it up and see if anyone else wants to talk about, you know their experiences.
Because we have quite a diversity of people here, if they have something to add, we'd like to hear it because it's helpful to other people who are either just starting or we just learned things.

Joel Gardner 12:04
Right.

Maffei, Clare J 12:15
That's a good point.
Umm well, being your student pretty much what you have advised though, going through all of these classes.
Uh, with y'all and Mike and whatnot.
It's been much more helpful.
Like I just said, being able to jump into jump beyond the general right, like like you and Joel mentioned, usually we can get that through that spot on site kind of thing.

Joel Gardner 12:42
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 12:44
I really like that our our texts and and and my Sally does a lot of that morpho sorting from the beginning.
So I'm not looking at a whole random string, they're at least in groups of.
These are all bumblebees and these are all in the mega kyodai and all of that.
And then going through those and getting them into genera and like you and Joel said, hopefully a lot of those, you can just do as you run.
And then it's been really helpful for me, particularly with our subgenera classes to my first run through some stuff that I do need a key out.

Joel Gardner 13:19
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 13:25
Maybe I'll run them through those keys first.
Umm, you know?
Maybe not for the laser glass and needing to do the key necessarily, but at least grouping them.

Joel Gardner 13:31
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 13:36
My though the weakness that I have is that once I'm in species realm spending the the less than five minutes and moving on and making the strings that you know that you've just mentioned.

Droege, Sam 13:37
It is no ohh yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 13:49
So I'm I learned from you guys and umm, so I don't have all that different of a method.
But yeah, my my yeah, my main.

Droege, Sam 13:58
Let I'll I'll illustrate.

Maffei, Clare J 14:01
My main thing is that having gone through these classes and, umm all of our sub general conversations, I think those have been the most helpful in speeding up my process.

Droege, Sam 14:13
I'll show a box this is a box of lazy blossom that I have that sort of the end of the line.

Joel Gardner 14:19
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 14:20
So these were the tough ones and just like Joel said, you know, I've got some that are groups and in the end of there's a bunch that are lazy blossoms species.

Joel Gardner 14:22
Yep.

Droege, Sam 14:30
Cause I can't quite tell what's going on.
There's an interesting group that I call lazy blossom interesting that I think could be something.
It's not that the specimen is messed up, but I can't put a name on it and then you can see in the.
Would that be the upper left of the screen?
That there's a whole series of angled specimens there, and I still have to assign them to something which might be lazy, gloss some species, but you can see the spacing and then the name.
In this case, it's because of the camera is reversed.
Umm.
And these are all females, so there's no horizontal ones, but they've been in my car as I go back and forth.
And you can see they get twisted a little bit, but that's just an example of our end end product workflow.

Joel Gardner 15:13
But it's just.

Droege, Sam 15:19
For those interested, is there anyone outside of the three of us who have spoken, who wanna share some workload experiences or something different?

Maffei, Clare J 15:27
We do.
But I'm going to bounce in real quick before I let Matt talk.
So being having the advantage of being with in your lab with you, I'll do the depths that I'm pretty confident about.
And the white label.
But then when I'm still learning or I'm just like I think it's one of these three, I will use the pink so that when Sam is, I did it, I can go back and check my thoughts and if I have, if I'm between a couple, I'll even like, write them all down.

Joel Gardner 15:45
I think.

Maffei, Clare J 15:58
And then what I like to do is I'll pin into the debt that I think is the most likely.
So for me that would look like what Sam had just shown of the debt label at the beginning of a string.

Joel Gardner 16:07
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 16:11
And then on any one in those that I'm like, oh, it's one of these three UM, I'd have this actually on the specimen.
So that's that's a way that I found more useful for learning and feedback.
After trying a lot of different things like writing notes and then trying to remember why I was looking at those notes.
So if that's helpful to you and you have a great relationship with someone like Sam or Joel or somebody checking your bees, a suggestion for you, Matt has his hand raised.

Joel Gardner 16:38
Yes, this should be.

Droege, Sam 16:45
Nothing to visit family like they have their new skin and tired.

Maffei, Clare J 16:46
So Matt, come on in.

Matt Sarver 16:51
Yeah.
I just wanted to mention this comes a little earlier in the process, but one of the things I'm really, uh, obsessed with is making sure that I have either the plant genus or if it's, you know, a bowl collection or something.

Joel Gardner 16:59
That's good.

Matt Sarver 17:07
The collection method on the label which I find helps a lot of times in the identification process.
Like you know, Sam does a lot of my IDs, but then sometimes I'll be like, hey, let's look at this again cuz it just happened to us recently where there was a species where.

Droege, Sam 17:19
Nothing.
The people who, sorry.

Matt Sarver 17:23
You know, if you can glance at the label and see when it was collected and on what you might catch.

Droege, Sam 17:26
Like.

Matt Sarver 17:28
Umm, you know something that doesn't make sense.

Droege, Sam 17:30
Anything.

Matt Sarver 17:32
So I just wanted to mention that cause it's I think an important part of my process, it not only obviously provides more information to the specimen in the future, but it also helps with ID checks and just making sure everything makes sense with the species you end up coming up with.
There are less important for Lizzie blossom than for injury, and some of those other groups, but just in general, I I I like to make sure I say stick to that practice pretty religiously.

Droege, Sam 17:47
Alright.
Having to check.
Is true, so anyone else?

Maffei, Clare J 18:01
Thanks Matt.
I want to I I know a man.
Dylan's here and we like your bees and I see a couple of other people who send us their bees.
Does anyone feel called to say what they do?

Droege, Sam 18:16
Yeah.
Who looks like Ellen has her hand raised.

Maffei, Clare J 18:26
Alan yeah.

e.lamborn 18:29
Yeah.
Hi so I work on British bees.
I live in the UK and last year I did a project where they sent me.
They sent me the bees in little Eppendorf tubes, all in alcohol, and they weren't sorted to Janus at all.
And I found it so difficult to work on them, and it wasn't until the end of the project when I met up with some of the specialists and they said they said, well, you can actually put them in the alcohol to identify them.

Droege, Sam 18:55
Didn't want to.

e.lamborn 19:03
So because I was drawing them out and it's because I thought that would be easier, but then you've you've got to sort of hold them and manipulate them.

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e.lamborn 19:12
It's really difficult without the pen, but they just they didn't want that.
They didn't want us to pen them.

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e.lamborn 19:17
They wanted them to go back in the app and doors from a storage perspective, they wanted to be able to store them in the freezer.
Yeah.
I just found that really, really difficult, but not only it was difficult because of the manipulation of the bee under the microscope, but it was also difficult because I couldn't put them into groups and and and and Jenna.

Droege, Sam 19:33
Umm.

e.lamborn 19:41
So genera and that meant that I was working on a bombus, and then I was working on an andrina.
And then I was working on a lazy gloss of and then I got the next pack out and I'd have to do the same again.
So you never really got a workflow.
So I think the getting putting things together like groups together is definitely really, really good help.
And we've only got 250 odd species of solitary bee as well, so it's not.
I can't imagine what it's like doing more than more than that.

Droege, Sam 20:13
Yeah, I'll point out that just identifying be species in any kind of liquid is really tough and actually horrible for the person.
As you were talking about and cause the the problem to some extent is there's no almost no shadow because there were fraction index of the liquid is so.
Ah, I guess it's high that you see basically just say Gray form in there and actually you'll be surprised at how much.
How much?
Uh.
Ohh little shadows.
You know, using your microscope lights to go across to see surface sculpturing and a lot of that just disappears and then the hair color is vague.
And like you mentioned, manipulating the specimen, so if anyone says, well, I'm just gonna send these to you and you're going to need to identify them in alcohol, you know, you know, be prepared that you can only go so far and a lot of these, some of these things may just have to be unidentified or identified to groups, and they should, if you're doing it for pay, they should pay you a heck of a lot more than identifying a things on tried and well prepared and on pins.

Joel Gardner 21:36
Yeah, well, a lot of insects, it's not common for bees, but I mean a lot of other insects.
It's standard practice to keep them in ethanol and they have like procedures for how you work with them.
So if you ever have to do bees and ethanol, it's probably a good idea to copy with the other ethanol.
People are doing so like usually when you identifying specimens and ethanol like you won't like, take the be out and called it under the microscope and try to identify it.
Cause you're gonna have a bad time if you do that.
You you get like a little dish, like a something like this little glass dish and you fill it with ethanol and you put the bee in there and make sure that it's completely submerged like, well, Peterman says, to do this in the chat.
And when the bee is like actually submerged in the ethanol, then it's a lot lot easier to see all the surface sculpture and all the CD and the hairs will kind of like fluff up in in the in the liquid.
So it's yeah, it's it's not bad the main problem.
Still is manipulation, so the view will want to like lie on its side.
Usually when it's in the in an ethanol dish and so like anything on the side of the bead, it's not hard to see.
But if you need to see the dorsal surface, it's it's kind of a you have to kind of wrestle with it to get it to stand up on its legs.

Droege, Sam 23:20
OK.
Are we?
Are we ready for memorandum versus Versaterm?
Any other any other specimen handling discussions?

Maffei, Clare J 23:32
Umm.
They won't happen.

Amanda Dillon 23:39
Umm.

Joel Gardner 23:39
OK.

Amanda Dillon 23:39
I was just gonna say something.
I'm just about, like, keeping yourself motivated while doing identifications.
So like if you have a whole suite of bees, sometimes I like if I leave all of the Lazio blossoms for the end, then I have a really hard time motivating.
So sometimes I'll try to like alternate the Lazio blossoms with like the mega payloads or the coeds or something just so like I don't leave all the hard ones at the end and then I have like a really hard time with motivation.

Joel Gardner 24:03
So.

Droege, Sam 24:10
Yeah, no.
True one thing Joel mentioned this and I do the same thing.
Some of the lazy blossoms are like a dream to not a dream, but they are easier.
And you can identify them pretty quickly with a little bit of experience, you know like ohh those that's lazy gloss and Brunei.
So you can take that, you know, 2000 lazy Blossom Bunch go through it once, pull out those and ID imitate them.
Brunei, a few others depending on, you know, how far in you've gone, and now all of a sudden you have fewer and then you can go in.
And if you feel like, oh, this is overwhelming.
Another thing to do is Morphosys sort your dialect us your lazy blossom so you can do that by eye like oh, I'm going to put all the dark ones here.
I find it useful to morpho sort things by the Akin aerial fan you know?

Joel Gardner 25:03
Stop.

Droege, Sam 25:05
Does it have complete?
Does it have large?
Does it have short or does it have none?
And then is what you wanted my opinion.
You incrementally recut those each time, so now I've got all the complete fan ones.
So I'm gonna take those complete fan ones, and I'm gonna look for another feature.
Might be size.
It might, but it's just one it's not like, well, these are bluish with, you know, a complete fan and a lot of Paylocity on the abdomen.
And these are some other variation.
Too many, too many variables.
It's like I'm going to go back through all the complete fan ones and I'm just gonna pull out everything that's got no or little umm to mentum on the abdomen and then keep doing that until you have a series of.
Morphosys sorted things that you feel cannot be divided any further, and you're in where Joel was talking about, which is some things just then begin to click just by having looked at a lot of lot of lot of things versus starting with one being it out and then going to two which is probably a different one.

Joel Gardner 26:04
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 26:23
And I think it makes the project more tractable and you have broken it down into smaller clumps.
That should be, yeah.
Shouldn't drive you insane?
And of course, you're listening to podcasts and things like that.
So and having a nice cup of tea.

Maffei, Clare J 26:48
Anyone else to pop in?
I thought Eric made have shown up in the chat.

Amanda Dillon 26:57
I was just going to say also and I think this was from Sam, a suggestion from Sam, that is totally true.

Joel Gardner 26:58
This implementation.

Amanda Dillon 27:05
I don't really understand it, but you can spend time staring at bees at like and not be able to get anywhere.

Joel Gardner 27:05
It's.

Amanda Dillon 27:12
And then if you just step away from them and come back like the next day or look at something else, somehow you have like this epiphany and you're like, oh, there it is.
So sometimes you really you really do need to just like step away from a from a while cuz like you're just a you're just developed some kind of blindness.
You're not seeing it.
And I, Sam told me that and I've I've used that ever since then.
It really speeds it up because I don't sit there agonizing over it for like an hour.

Droege, Sam 27:41
Yeah.
Alright, well.

Maffei, Clare J 27:50
Erica's hand raised you guys.
Guys, we're we're small enough group.
You guys just pop in.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 27:56
Hey so this is actually Caitlin, Eric and I are in the same office, but I am Eric's aide based up in Brookings, SD.

Maffei, Clare J 28:00
OK, fantastic.

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Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 28:05
But so I did all of our dilectus sorts.
We had a cabinet of about 10,000 Lacey Blossom that I went through this summer, and I had about no be identification experience before this job.

Joel Gardner 28:08
Yeah.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 28:18
But my big thing was taking those.
Yep, doing the breaking it into dilectus alone and then from there, looking at the fans, breaking them into separate groups and then down to looking at the pinning on the means epicedium and the scutum and then looking at the relative shape of the head.

Joel Gardner 28:31
Is easily and.
You know.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 28:36
We're like my big three characters that I used and then from there, taking those morpho groups and kind of running them through the key definitely helped me a lot.
So I didn't have to run every single one through the key served a lot of time too.

Joel Gardner 28:53
And I verified a lot of those dielectrics.
Identifications.
A few weeks ago.
And they were pretty good.
I I I had no idea that that Caitlin had no prior be identification.
Experience and looking at those visa, I would have guessed somebody did it.
Who was working on him for years?

Droege, Sam 29:17
High praise there, Caitlin.

Maffei, Clare J 29:19
That's awesome.

Beckendorf, Eric - REE-ARS 29:22
Thank you.
Thank you.
It means a lot.

Joel Gardner 29:25
Yeah, the the veered item group was a struggle, but the weird item group is a struggle for everybody.

Droege, Sam 29:38
Well, shall we dive into versus?
I mean, we can, if anyone comes up with something in it or is feels like they have to bring something in, that's fine, I would say, but maybe Beera dot, I'm not beer dot versaterm versus Admiral Random.
Joel, do you wanna talk about that?

Joel Gardner 30:01
Uh, sure.
So.

Droege, Sam 30:05
Maybe mention, maybe mention walk for some some people.
Why are people asking that question?

Joel Gardner 30:14
Why are people asking it?
The because these are, they're hard.
They're hard to tell apart.
And if you have a different answer that you were expecting.

Droege, Sam 30:28
Well, I mean, what's that?
What are the characters that pull those two together in addition to the being hard?
You know, like the pitting on T2 and the economical fan like, what's the generic thing here in terms of that group, the versata and also trigeminal and caladium groups all have heavy pitting throughout T2 all the way to the rim.

Joel Gardner 30:49
Uh.

Droege, Sam 30:50
That kind of thing.
And then why then explain you know the differences?
And then I think people will get an understanding for the fact that they end up with these and these are common common common bees and depending on where you are, you might learn more versatile.
You might be more advantium and then you're throwing in things like trigeminal mum and to mix things up, but those two have at least a little bit of a depending on the specimen swelling in the front.
Uh.
Trochanter, which is a useful character, but again I demonym for example can be a very sketchy on the edge thing is, so some of those end up in the I can't tell but.

Joel Gardner 31:25
I have to.

Droege, Sam 31:41
Is it makes sense stroll in terms of what's what's the ties?

Joel Gardner 31:43
Yeah.
So the the Versaterm group is not actually part of the third item group, but it looks very superficially similar.
And it I think if you if you did a phylogeny of them that resident group would probably be like like a basal lineage branching off from the period item group.

Droege, Sam 32:01
Umm.

Joel Gardner 32:10
Umm, so that the thing that sort of ties these species together is they both have an incomplete occurring aerial fan.
Uh, which most dialectics actually have.
A complete fan, but you wouldn't.
You wouldn't know that just from looking at a collection of random dialect disks that you got.
Uh, because you you're probably gonna like if you're in the east or you're in the Midwest where the you're out of group is really common.
You're probably gonna get a ton of specimens with an incomplete fan, and then you're gonna think that's the more common state.
But actually the complete fan is the like the ancestral condition and the more common character stage is there.
So these are so common, so they both have an incomplete fan uniting them, which is like probably the best character.
And they have a root sort of rugulose imponte Misa pastorum, so there's no punctures on the side of the bee below the wing, which is another kind of a uncommon character in dialect us.
Most of the other ones are contagious.
And they have the rims of the terga. Umm.
Kind of filled with distinct punctures.
So those three things make add random and her Saddam look pretty superficially similar.
Fan the ease of the sternum and the but Turgut punctures.
The way that you tell the difference between them.
Yes.
See that the key?
Separates them based on head length and the skewed them being flattened or convex, and then the width of the opening in the Akron area fan.
So that the width and the of the adherent aerial fan is actually pretty, pretty hard to judge.
I actually don't use that character much.
It's it's kind of hard to judge and it's kind of subjective, but the head shape definitely is different.
Also, Sam mentioned that four trochanters.
That's actually not in the key because.
Yeah, and inverse Sodom.
It's a little bit hard to see.
It's much more, much more pronounced in Canada and then try to Eminem, but even Versaterm will have a slightly flattened, slightly expanded front trochanter.
So you can look at that.
And then there's also just.
The sculpture that especially like the the that is almost hurt will just look kind of different.
It's hard to explain, but the punctures are a little bit more regular, a little bit more to Sodom.
And the skewed them is another good character.
So should I?
You say can I can show pictures from the key?
I have specimens to have to go into the collection and get them out.

Maffei, Clare J 35:51
Yeah.
No, I think showing pictures in the key because when we when you went through those species in earlier classes, we were just doing it from the microscope.
And I'm not even sure if I sent out because of size of key.
If I was able to send out the the full full key, so bringing those up, I think those are really good photographs.
So if you bring those up, that would be awesome.

Joel Gardner 36:20
So I'm gonna share.
I am sharing the 2010 Jason's 2010 key to the Dialectics of Canada, which is a kind of superseded by the 1022 update key, but the 2010 one is still useful because it has all the pictures and descriptions in it.
So if you want to know what an ad random looks like, it's it's in this heat.
So this is add Miranda and here's the head.
And if you look at the head shape the the lower margins are like pretty strongly convergent.
It's kind of coming to a point down at the clypeus and the clypeus is also projecting are pretty far below.
So if you draw an imaginary line across the bottoms of the compound eyes like this, and then you look at how far the clipeus protrudes below that line, it's like, uh, maybe like halfway, half the cliches is protruding below that.

Droege, Sam 37:42
No.

Joel Gardner 37:43
That line that's called the suborbital tangent, this imaginary line.
So if you ever see a reference to the clypeus and the suborbital tangent, this is what it's talking about.
So that Clavius is like kind of strongly projecting in add random with the lower part of the face kind of convergence.
So it's more of a.
Umm.
It's hard to think of a good analogy.
It's it's kind of a more pointy face, less perfectly round.
And then if you look at the scutum 2.
It's kind of hard to see in in these pictures, but it's it's it'll be kind of convex to the top of this theorem will be gently curved so that when the light reflects off of it, it will be uneven.

Droege, Sam 38:42
OK.

Joel Gardner 38:47
So there will be like one light patch and then the rest of this unit will kind of be in shadow like in here.
That's like one light patch.
The rest of it is darker here.
It's kind of distorted by the pin, but you can kind of see that's that it's round and it's it's not flat.
Of your sodom.
Navigate to.

Droege, Sam 39:14
Well, I'm just that it in addition to those characters, I find that the it's not absolute, but a lot of things aren't absolute here that the tegula tend to be at that yellow end of the spectrum.
You often very bright yellow and in Versant I'm it's at the brown end of the spectrum, often dark brown and that on the skew dum and random can be a little bit variable, right?
And Versailles, I'm you.
Get more of this color that you're seeing here.
Sort of a green blue rather than a mostly blue type of looky thing, and then you'll, I'm sure, talk about excluding flat.
There's another things too, but those are just some observations.

Joel Gardner 40:10
Yeah, yeah, those are good observations.
So they're not 100% reliable because color does vary more than other characters.
But yeah, definitely versus Adam does tend to have these really dark brown Taylor, and then he recalled that add random picture that was just up umm, those that do tend to be brighter yellow.
You do have to be careful though, because trigeminal exists and trigeminal has more bright yellow tabularly and more bluish color too.
So that's another one to throw into this mix actually.
Trigeminal and add random would probably be harder to tell apart than versaterm and add Miranda.
Think those are trickier?
As a Yep.
His trigeminal does not have the flat scutum like for Sodom does.
So here's a versaterm.
Again, this is in the we have in 10 key and if you look at the skewed I'm here, it's flat and you can tell that because of the way the light reflects off of it.
So you see, there's like much more even reflections on this.
You know, it's like the whole surface is kind of evenly illuminated.
You don't get like one light patch and the rest of it is dark.
So you can kind of tell tell by looking at like ohh that is pretty flattened and if you look at it in lateral view it'll be like almost straight across.
It's hard to see with all the layers in the way, but it if you have like an actual specimen, you can like rotate around, you can see that it'll flattened.

Droege, Sam 41:52
But.

Joel Gardner 42:00
Then the head is also very different.
So here we have a much round your head.
It's not so pointy at the bottom.
The client PS is not so strongly protruding, so if he again we draw this invisible line across the bottoms of the ocelli and you get here it's like uh the clypeus is like, yeah, it's like maybe like 1/3 of it is projecting below that suborbitals tangent and it's not so it's not so strongly converging.
Hello.
Is that the compound eyes?
I think it might have said his silly.
Umm.
If you seconds ago if I did, I meant compound eyes.
And let's see.
Yeah.
So that is a.
That is how I tell those apart.

Droege, Sam 43:02
Jason, I wonder about your opinion on this.
So I find that in a relatively subtle but kind of average way that the action areal fan in versata is wider and you know has a wider opening at the top and ohh it.

Joel Gardner 43:08
Granted.

Droege, Sam 43:23
Then add Miranda but add random is no not at all like it's got a super pinched.
It's just a little bit more.
Umm uh, you need a little more, a little more narrowed.
I guess I would put it, but if that's something that I'm making up in my head, or would you say?

Joel Gardner 43:43
That is a character in the key.
So this one has a pretty narrow opening.
This picture of versaterm, that's a pretty narrow opening and think if we go back.
There's a D Miranda that's a pretty wide opening there, kind of hard to see because it's there's a lot of.
There's a little bit of glare there, but that and like here to here is probably where the.
You're here is probably where the opening is, and that fan, so that is wider.
I think that actually is what it says in the.
Find that couple again.

Droege, Sam 44:34
Actually I I would have said the opposite, but you know, again it's not a primary character for me and I could be misreading it.

Joel Gardner 44:50
OK, here it is.
Yeah, you're right.
The key does and he does say that the fan opening is wider in Versaterm, but maybe that's why I don't use that character, because it it definitely looked to me in those pictures like it was the other way around.

Droege, Sam 45:11
Uh-huh.
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 45:16
It's kind of hard to judge.

Droege, Sam 45:19
Yeah, this is a good case.
Again, where getting down to a this group as a very general and then going through it several times.
So don't be afraid.

Joel Gardner 45:31
Good.

Droege, Sam 45:32
It's not like I have to pick this up in, identify it and then put it into its final resting place.

Matt Sarver left the meeting

Droege, Sam 45:37
I think the way to think about these things is I'm gonna pick up a number of these specimens several times and look at them several times.
And when you get down to this group, you'll want to start doing your own comparisons, and I like the versaterm.
And Abraham has really a a pretty different vibe, and you're lucky if you have both of those in there, because once you do, by going back and forth, back and forth through your pile and looking at them over and over again, you should be able to really giving guidance like this kind of move them into two distinct piles.
Not necessarily keying them that way, but by looking at them a lot.

Joel Gardner 46:20
Who?

Droege, Sam 46:25
So that's another part of this is that these tricky groups you're is not a one and done situation.
It's, I think all of us who are doing this kind of thing are looking at these within a particular collection event event or collection to begin with several times and then going back through them to make sure that we didn't leak into that specimen one way or the other.
So you get a a visual sense of the specimens within a particular collection in these tricky ones.

Joel Gardner 47:04
Yeah, and.

Maffei, Clare J 47:11
We have two requests here.

Joel Gardner 47:11
We.

Maffei, Clare J 47:13
Umm.
To maybe some more specifics on the trigeminal Tracy just jumped in, Umm and we spent most this time kind of being like training.
This is not this one and ohh I'd missed it.
Eric, what did you want?

Joel Gardner 47:30
Thank you.

Maffei, Clare J 47:33
How?
Effie Altum if I'm saying that correctly.

Droege, Sam 47:36
Yeah.
Yeah.
There you go.
So Joel, I sent this to Jason.
I should have.
I don't think I copied you, but I should have.
I was looking at some stuff from Michigan.
It would have keyed to Effie Eltham.
This is just one of these things that happened regularly and is like here's a whole series, same date, same place in a large collection from Michigan and several other places around the Great Lakes.
But it has no akinari all fan like nothing.
But it also doesn't have the hairs like verse, verse ants and I guess some of the others that are much more less common coming out from that fan, it's simply gone.

Beiriger,Robert L left the meeting

Droege, Sam 48:23
And it wasn't a one off.
And the area where.
The T1 umm bends over so from the dorsal to the anterior face, right at that curve.
And I, you know, this is I think present largely in he had not more or less in a lot of lazy glosses, but we ignore it.
There's a line of race.
No, let up a latitudinal line of sparse raised hairs and that's it.
But it would key to F altum, but ethelton usually has a pretty strong, in my opinion it Canario fan or you know, certainly not absent open the top.
But this was gone anyway.

Joel Gardner 49:09
So every single specimen, it's just going if there's like absolutely no see.

Droege, Sam 49:12
Yeah.
And and they're really good specimens.
You know, this is not some like.
Ohh well, that's clearly just a pressed by bad goop like clean fresh wings.
Pop all that kind of stuff.
But no, no, no fan all and then weirdly, all from one place, one location, one date.
So it may be a one off, but I'm just throwing that out there because it was the the fan is such a wonderful, you know, almost always unless it's so obvious from some other reason.
Almost always taking a peek at each specimens fan because it's illuminating.
I'm in lots of subtle ways, but this was just gone so.

Joel Gardner 49:57
Yeah, that's really interesting.
I've never seen that except in umm, except in Warrens specimens.
So I've seen it like sometimes but like not like a whole series where like every single step completely off.

Droege, Sam 50:07
Yeah, not warned.
Yeah, I think there were eight.
So anyway, with Claire's, yeah, go ahead.

Joel Gardner 50:19
Ohh.
If if it's only 8 specimens, it's it's plausible that that all of them are just worn.

Droege, Sam 50:26
Yeah.
Umm, I would say.
Probably not, but they all might be some related sport of FLW or something.
Anyway, I've glare.

Joel Gardner 50:43
Are there?
There are have sorry.

Maffei, Clare J 50:45
Because they do, we have the concern of this particular zone getting Warren in the same way that other areas of the turquoise might be.

Joel Gardner 50:55
It it is a it is a concern if if the if T1 gets Warren and like the CD get rubbed off it can really mess up identifications.

Droege, Sam 50:55
Umm.

Joel Gardner 51:06
I don't like relying on it so heavily in the keys, but it's such a good character that it's hard not to rely on it.
There's certain species, especially.
Subverse Sands and canarelli.
Where the fan naturally has very, very very short CD like.
It's like somebody took a razor and shaved it.
And those two species are especially prone to having the fan rubbed off and worn.
One second.
Let's see.
You have like those species, it's actually pretty common to get a decent series where you get a bunch of specimens that look like they have no fan.

Droege, Sam 51:51
Hmm, well, I've set aside and so.

Maffei, Clare J 51:54
He he say those species again subversions and what?

Joel Gardner 51:58
And canarie.
So Subverse Sans is kind of like a northern boreal species.

Droege, Sam 52:00
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 52:03
And then narrate is like Western US.

Droege, Sam 52:09
Yeah.
The thing the thing about it though is in this case that pushes it against the idea that it's just worn away is there's this very delicate band of thin, long CT that should have been scraped off 1st and they're they're all there.
So anyway, I just just don't wanna lock the discussion up, but it was like this is really interesting looking.
You know, there's some that are like that.
They're just like this looks really different.
I hope I see more of them because I don't know what to do with it.

Joel Gardner 52:45
Yeah.
Where do you say they were from?

Droege, Sam 52:49
Health of in Michigan on, I guess, maybe along near Lake Erie South of Detroit, but not urban.
It looked like it might have been a, you know, from Google map, a field that was planted to be a pollinator field or something like that.

Joel Gardner 53:08
Yeah.
Well, you want to send me any actuaries are specimens.
I understand the see them.

Droege, Sam 53:14
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 53:16
Yeah, Sally can take pictures of those over the winter break.

Droege, Sam 53:19
You can.

Maffei, Clare J 53:21
Umm, I would also bring up we have in the Discover life.
Uh.
Characters the these like umm the like.
Size of patches on the base of tergites in like I think like our first page of the key.
Why we haven't really talked about them at all here.

Droege, Sam 53:45
So I think what Claire's OK.

Maffei, Clare J 53:46
So that might be a you questions.

Droege, Sam 53:49
So what Claire's talking about is, you know like T2 and in particular, but sometimes you have hair across the whole segment, but a lot of times it's really just either nothing, maybe rarely like I'll levisa mom, there's a band, but a lot of times there's just, like, a triangle on the far sides.
And so we have scored abdominal segments as whether they have a triangle or whether they have or percent of appressed hairs.
And you know, we've scored them very broadly, but a lot of times I find that, you know, like if I'm looking at Gotham or something like that, it's like, oh, I see.
That was very strong triangle areas of oppressed hairs is a useful secondary character, and just in general within abdominal hair patterns, the presence of a lot or a little or restricted amounts of hair are ohm.

Joel Gardner 54:43
Yep.

Droege, Sam 54:53
Often characteristic you know you can get things like prisoner eye, which has a weird teeth for I think pattern of oppressed lots of oppressed hairs and some longer whitish hairs that are somewhere in between that are like ohh I see you there a little cressoni based on your you know your rear end.

Joel Gardner 55:04
You.

Droege, Sam 55:16
So here's can be useful.

Maffei, Clare J 55:18
So do you suggest that be part of people's like first round of Morpho sorts since they're on like the front page of our key online?

Droege, Sam 55:29
Well, it can be.
I mean, so you can morpho sort on lots of different things the but hairiness in general is a really good character for separating out some big groups.
Some basically have no appressed errors.
It was quite a few and then others can be incredibly hairy.
You don't think of Pilosum parade Miranda?
Him, you know, often will key ambiguously, but it's got just so much hair down there that that should always be in your mind.

Joel Gardner 55:53
Just.

Droege, Sam 55:58
And then you can look for the fan and then the the tessellations or the microscopic lines that it has because those work a little more subtle.

Zarrillo, Tracy left the meeting

Droege, Sam 56:09
So it's a, it's a useful thing to keep in mind when you're Morphos sorting.
That's a pretty unless Assassin's really in bad shape.
That's a pretty good character to try and lay out your specimens in in terms of amount of hair, and you can come up with when you're orchestrating.
You have your your the world's your oyster, so you can come up with your own umm haracter in your mind, right?
So because you're just splitting things into groups and then you're you're iterating this until you feel confident.
If you take it to the extreme, you feel confident that everything in a particular group has is the same thing based on a whole series of characters, and you're gonna pick it up.
Look at the rear end for each.
Then you're gonna pick it up.
Look at the fan for each look at the head for each and then doing that several times.
You can come up with a confidence.
Like whatever it is, it's these are all the same.
And now you have when you're keying it out, you have several different specimens to run through.
The key in case like Joel said, you end up with some ambiguity, particularly again with a dichotomous key.
So with the dichotomous key you are pretty much you have to make decisions or your start running multiple lines.
And when you have a big key, that's tricky.
So having a series allows you to look across that series and come up with a average state to plug into the key and with discover life.

Joel Gardner 57:32
Yeah.
Did you?

Droege, Sam 57:46
Of course you can include or exclude whatever you want, or score broadly to be conservative, which is, you know, if you're not.
If you're guessing game over right?
Same thing in all these keys.

Joel Gardner 57:57
Good.

Droege, Sam 57:58
You need to stay with.
I'm confident that this is is either this thing or maybe it's this or that when you're doing it.

Joel Gardner 58:09
Because.
Yeah, I'm going to throw away in Speaking of the there was uh, triangles of of tone and time on T2, and in case you don't know what tomentum is, that's what's Sam is talking about when he talking about a pressed hairs.
So when we talk about tone and tone, we mean those appressed hairs and they're they're like really densely plumose, they're really, they're really thick and feathery.
They're gonna be lying flat on the on the surface.
That's tall and Tom.
So in addition to T2T1 and T3 are also really good to look at, especially the lateral edges of T1.
If there's toman come there, that's a really good Marfo sort character, and then T3, whether it's covering the whole segment or just in the basal corners, that's another good, more housework here after.

Droege, Sam 59:05
Hmm.
And T4 can be pretty good just from the percentage.
So a lot of times T4 doesn't really have triangles.
Is sort of my general impression, but it does have a density of these tomentum or oppressed hairs and you looked like how much of the segment the integument below is covered by the hair.

Joel Gardner 59:17
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 59:28
And again, you're if you're more for sorting, this may not be in any of the keys, but if you're more for sorting, you know you got a lot.
You got a little.
We got some scattered ones, so one of the tricky things within Jason's key is in several instances, it's qualifying the absence of hair of this kind of tomentum on the abdomen, which leads you, me, I guess into like amali seeing this or not because it'll say abs largely absent or I don't know the exact word, but it implies that it's absent up those kinds of hairs, but there might be a few you know that you know I don't want that door opened, but it's there.
There.
And so it's like AM and I look at it, specimen, it's like do I have a few or is that a lot?
And but I have to make a decision or follow as we often end up doing two of those sets.
But if you have a long series, that's where you want to be.

Joel Gardner 1:00:25
If you you know.

Droege, Sam 1:00:28
Because you say like, look, they all have just a few hairs or maybe more or less and that can help with any decision guide making is really imperfect and every single person who develops these guides has a different mindset in creating them.

Amanda Dillon left the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:00:47
So you know how well you resonate with a particular guide is basically on how well your resonating with their mind.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:04
We are past time, but I still have some time if we want to keep going.

Joel Gardner 1:01:04
Human.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:10
I don't know what your capacities are.
Uh, we could bounce back.

A Aldercotte left the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:15
This was a great plan.
Interrupted that.
But Eric, still around at the Alton or come back to it when we do dilectus again, questionmark.

Droege, Sam 1:01:26
I I think Ethelton would be a good one for Joel to talk about a little bit, because I mean it's F Alton, what does that mean?

Joel Gardner 1:01:28
Yes.

Droege, Sam 1:01:33
Like nightmare or something.

Joel Gardner 1:01:35
Yes, that that is the basis of the etymology.
Uh.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:43
That's that's wonderful.

Joel Gardner 1:01:48
Yeah, and it it it is, it's it's appropriately named.
Umm, I still don't have a firm grasp on what is the NFL team. Uh.
So I I oftentimes like especially out in the West where they're not as well.
Still, you know you won't even identify the autumn group specimens.
I'll just put them as weird autumn group.
But in the east, sometimes, like I can feel confident putting a name on things.
But all of those should be taken as somewhat provisional if the group really needs to be looked at more in depth.
Maybe with like more like next Gen sequence data was actually something Jason is working on right now which might provide some answers, but so Felton is a the tricky species.
It's one of the ones that does not have those dense, distinct punctures on on T2.
Uh, so it might have a few punctures, so it's one of those cases.
Sam was talking about where it's like.
Ohh, there's a there's a few there and then it's it makes it really hard to judge whether which way you should go in the key.
If there's just a few punctures, but if you if you have a series or if you have like some ADD random or some versaterm for comparison and you can look at them side by side, then you can you can definitely see like ohh yeah add random has way more punctures than NFL team does on on the on the rim of T2.
Uh, besides that.
Fe altum.
What else is?

Droege, Sam 1:03:47
I I think of it as pretty generic and the very generic lazy gloss and dialectics group doesn't have those pitting and then it a lot of the others where you're have to weigh things either are in that has a relatively shinier skewed gum area or has almost and or has almost no tomentum on the umm you know T234 and FL Tam almost all.

Joel Gardner 1:04:20
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:04:21
Well, I would say always, but again, it's a little ambiguous here, but it it very clearly has a bunch of tomentum down there.
It's not like there's no question and then the action aerial fan is open at the top.

Joel Gardner 1:04:31
With them.

Jason Gibbs joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:04:38
Umm, that's how you get down to in Jason's key to that area and it's not super.
Super.
Ohh, there's Jason.
Speak of the NFL team.
Umm.
And you know it's to.
I'll let you know Jason can explain a little bit further.
So those are the characters that I use.
The economical fan is open but not like super widely open.
Alright, Jason, what's your favorite?
Effie Altam characters.

Jason Gibbs 1:05:09
Ooh umm, I think I was told at one point.
You know George Edward had talked about this group of bees that they're defining.
Characters where they had no defining characters.

Joel Gardner 1:05:20
This.

Jason Gibbs 1:05:22
I guess that's kind of ethyl team.
No, it's it's not as kind of dull.
Put and you know Microculture does something like a parade and random.
And it's not as densely punctured on the Turaga as you know, an admin, random or a versaterm or something like that.
It's kind of dark.
I mean, I mean, I remember, you know, a lot of the, you know, the FHL films that I used to see were were like the, you know, the kind of near.
Rori kind of identifications.
They vaguely kind of are reminiscent of a Princeton, but they're not quite there.
They have kind of darker tegula than most.

Joel Gardner 1:06:08
With.

Jason Gibbs 1:06:13
But they're not.
You know, they're not the sculpturing is not as coarse as at would I or as kind of unique as address bot guy.
So it's it's it's it's.
Yeah, it's defining characters as it has no defining characteristics.
Basically the problem.

Joel Gardner 1:06:32
Would you say that?
Uh, I've I've.
I've noticed kind of looking at weird out.
And you're species?
There's one set of the weird autumn group that has pretty fine punctures on the sputum and then another set that has like larger, coarser punctures like Fe Ultem is one of the fine punctured ones and then like weird autumn and sagax are more coarsely punctate.

Jason Gibbs 1:06:58
Yeah, I can buy into that, although it's probably subtle, I mean probably to look at a lot of uh, that's it.

Joel Gardner 1:07:02
Yes, very subtle, but it is I think it is.
It might be a good character if you could quantify it.

Jason Gibbs 1:07:14
And just bringing up some keys and stuff, I'm talking.
Yeah.
I I I have a kid sick at home, so I'm just that's why.
I in the last week.

Maffei, Clare J 1:07:27
It's cool that we're still running and you have to in we still have most of the class here.

Jason Gibbs 1:07:30
Yeah.
I just said I had to run the other one to school.
Yeah, I just got back from the one to school, so.
Done.

Maffei, Clare J 1:07:38
Joan and Eric at the thumbs up are also I'm wondering if where how our reference specimens available upon request.
We have some.
I sent them out.
You know we can send out little boxes to to groups, but there are a lot of the really, really common stuff.
So actually what we've been talking about, maybe there's stuff in there, I don't know what our surplus collection is looking like at the moment.
I think we're going through a cleaning.

Jason Gibbs 1:08:08
Now.
There.
Yeah, I mean.
I I I'm.
I'm reluctant to offer just because if I get a lot of quests, you know I I'm behind on sending things back to people already.
But you know, I'm not.
I'm not opposed to trades or exchanges, so if someone wants to send me so endrina from.
You know Florida florist, Pakistan's.

Droege, Sam 1:08:36
Pakistan.

Jason Gibbs 1:08:38
There little better this or not, but no.

Maffei, Clare J 1:08:39
Black Market B trades.

Jason Gibbs 1:08:41
I mean, yeah, I mean, I'll, I'll put together the. Yeah.
You know synoptic side of beans that I can mean somethings are calling.
Yeah, as you say somethings are common and easy to to send, but you know where things are rare so.
But I'm always happy to.
You know, I'm happy to build the collection here and and that will do that in by exchanging customs people so.
Occasionally I have, you know, a lot of people been generous with giving these specimens, you know, to keep you.
So happy to sort of say that word too so.
But this.

Droege, Sam 1:09:21
Jason has bunches of our specimens.

Jason Gibbs 1:09:24
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I fondly remember the first shipment of these I ever got from Sam.
It was very helpful.

Droege, Sam 1:09:31
He he was, I have to say, you know, he was like, there were a bunch of paralytics things in there that Jason was extremely excited about.

Jason Gibbs 1:09:41
No.
Yeah, that was doing it.
Yeah.
Yeah, that was, you know, early days and working on that with this.
So no, I learned a lot thing was something.

Droege, Sam 1:09:55
Well, I we we may have wrapped it up here for the holidays.

Jason Gibbs 1:09:56
Yeah.
In.

Droege, Sam 1:10:06
There anything else?

Bonnie Zand (Guest) left the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 1:10:07
No.
Any other burning desires?
I don't see anybody.

Joel Gardner 1:10:11
Let me.

Maffei, Clare J 1:10:11
I don't think I missed anything in the chat. Anybody.

Joel Gardner 1:10:15
And then.

Jason Gibbs 1:10:17
Yeah, I see barrel on there.
I I remember.
Promising to send tourists and Zephyrus or something.
So that's.
That.

Maffei, Clare J 1:10:35
Hi well this is a nice transition.

Droege, Sam 1:10:36
Alright, thanks everyone.

Maffei, Clare J 1:10:39
I think our plan is to come back on the 10th and do this stepwise through the dilectus key, whichever you so choose to begin with.
And then we'll probably have the opportunity to do this again if the, you know unique questions, I think open office hours are good opportunity.

Joel Gardner 1:10:54
You can do this.

Maffei, Clare J 1:11:00
We don't get to do that necessarily every class.

Aliza Fassler left the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:11:03
Great.
Thanks, Claire.

Jason Gibbs 1:11:04
Now it's possible it's possible.

Maffei, Clare J 1:11:04
Umm then.

Jason Gibbs 1:11:06
In January 10th I might be working from home too soon.

Droege, Sam 1:11:06
Thanks, Joel.

Maffei, Clare J 1:11:10
Didn't catch that.
What was that?

Jason Gibbs 1:11:11
That I might be working from home on January 10th, 2:00.
So still working my new terms schedule.

Maffei, Clare J 1:11:18
We'll we'll work it out.
We're on your schedule.
Thanks all.

Adamson, Nancy - FS, WV left the meeting

Droege, Sam 1:11:24
Alright guys.
Happy holidays everyone.

Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest) left the meeting