106_Lasioglossum 2013 key couplet 10 - end_Jason Gibbs and Joel Gardener_12 13 2023

December 13, 2023, 6:00PM

1h 4m 3s

Droege, Sam 0:05
Umm yeah, just a couple quick things.
I don't think Rob, Gene or Mike arduous are on, but if they are, they can take over.
But Rob reasonably reported a andrina trip questra.
Or is it trick questa I don't can't remember from somewhere there down in Ohio, Southern Ohio, Southern Indiana, which is a big range extension, also pretty obscure species very similar to another obscure thing and drennen enough those squirty and so bone up on that I just updated the guides so that the ranges are into those areas too.

Searles Mazzacano, Zee joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 0:47
The other thing is, is that John Asher has shifted his allegiance and is now acknowledging that, umm, the panner.
Many of the panner giants are actually in protein.
Drina, Jason's got a student who has been working on one is a terrace, saurus or heterosporous.

Jason Gibbs 1:09
Their source.

Droege, Sam 1:10
CareSource.
So what we're doing now and it's in progress, but a lot of it has shifted over, you can still use the old pseudo Prendergast guides which Anthem Mergus.
Pseudoprime.
Argus Petera saurus Antera Asaurus were in those have now all moved over and are subgenera of Protan.

Joel Gardner 1:33
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:35
Drina, I've got the guides.
The Prudent arena guide with most of the material in there, but I'm still working on transferring the mail character as well.
The male characters are passed on, but I'm scoring the.

Joel Gardner 1:48
Something.

Droege, Sam 1:50
Species for those, so it's not quite ready as a aggregate.
We will then have to transfer the pictures we have to transfer the the characters updates from the scanned in literature and make species pages.
So there's a fair amount of schlepping work for me to do here.
Additionally, we'll probably go in and use.

Joel Gardner 2:12
Right.

Droege, Sam 2:18
Uh umm, uh.
Jason student Johnson what's his first name?

Jason Gibbs 2:25
In that Steve Robinson.

Droege, Sam 2:26
Steve Robinson.
Sorry and use his thesis as a starting place to do some acknowledged different characters cause he has a very different sort of pattern of characters which I think will be useful to add like we add my guard users.

Matthew Carlson joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 2:41
I'll be in touch JSON when we get ready to do that because we'll do some reformatting and see if that works.
It'll just be for eastern species right now.
Ultimately, we would like to get.
Uh, the entire group done to the West, but like Jason said, he only did heterosporous or torosaurus characters. Yeah.

Beiriger,Robert L joined the meeting

Jason Gibbs 3:05
He did.
He did tell our service.
I mean there.
There's Tim Timberlake did the other submitter.

Droege, Sam 3:11
Umm yeah, but I'm sure there's other sneaky ones still out there.
Yeah. Who knows?
OK, so that's my update to be determined.

Bonnie Zand joined the meeting

Droege, Sam 3:22
It's marked on the guide at the top what we're doing and when we started it and I will update that information when the prudent Karina is completely usable.
So that's where we are.

Jason Gibbs 3:35
What?

Maffei, Clare J 3:36
Ink, Sam.
Alright, I have some administration.
We are going to be not having class the last week of December in the first week of January.

Joel Gardner 3:40
Yes, my deep.

Ai Wen--Univ. N. Iowa (Guest) joined the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 3:44
So we'll take low class next week and then a two week break.
I'm still trying to line up other experts to come in to do tax that we haven't done.

Joel Gardner 3:53
That's not.

Maffei, Clare J 3:56
So if you wanna join us or have suggestions, let me know. UM.

Joel Gardner 3:59
Suggestion.

Maffei, Clare J 4:04
I had forgotten the other thing already.

Joel Gardner 4:06
Ready.

Maffei, Clare J 4:06
Ohh, I just wanted to celebrate.
I pulled I I I I was behind on uploads, so those are now done.
We are uploaded from as a up to last class and today we'll upload today's class and I also was pulling stats and I just wanted to celebrate with Jason and Joel that your general session, your first session with us was the second most popular class we had the most on our first session and then which was 105 attendees.
And then we had 79 on that session that you hosted.
So while you're here, wanted to celebrate that with you before I forgot I'm.

Droege, Sam 4:42
Yay.

Joel Gardner 4:44
And.

Jason Gibbs 4:48
Everyone's favorite.

Maffei, Clare J 4:48
I think that's everything.

Droege, Sam 4:50
Well, well, Jason and Joel, you know, they're they're rock stars.

Maffei, Clare J 4:53
Their rock stars and I'll I'll be getting stats from Dan shortly on what those downloads and site visits look like.
So we know that there were 79 people there and probably more downloads to come.

Jason Gibbs 5:09
Yeah, that'd be great to see.

Maffei, Clare J 5:10
Right.
Yay.
And you guys can take it away from here.

Jason Gibbs 5:12
Satisfy my Dean.

Maffei, Clare J 5:17
I think there's conversation that you want to start a couplet 19.
Maybe just let us know where you're starting.

Jason Gibbs 5:22
I think I'm OK.
I'm gonna pop up the the key.
So I thought maybe you mentioned, I think we were around 8:00 or.
When guy and and some of these pieces with the the strong pronotal crina.

Maffei, Clare J 5:46
Yeah, we stopped at from 19.
The last one I have notes on is swanky, but sometimes I miss things.

Jason Gibbs 5:59
OK.
Yeah.
So we did.
At one point we we had jumped to the 19 from a couple of one.
We were talking about this for coda gastro.
Umm, but I think we were, we kind of worked our way back the other route.
So we were at around a couple of eight and and this one, umm, you know, it's about the music the sternum.
So it's basically, you know, decided the thorax, the plural on that is punctate or not.
And the the parenthetical.
Umm characters here are basically not diagnostic but helpful.
So just because it's got it's small in size doesn't mean that it's gonna go that way.
Just because it has patches of tomentum on Trump two and three, it doesn't mean you should go to 9.
But it's those species have that card.
But I think you've covered both of those species a couple of weeks ago.
So Burke Bannon didn't.
Could peninsula.
So I don't think they're gonna redo that.

Droege, Sam 7:03
Mm-hmm.

Jason Gibbs 7:03
Umm, I would note that if if you happen to be in in the West Coast and you think you have makeup pendency, it's possible you have an undescribed species.

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Jason Gibbs 7:14
You do? Maybe.
Yeah, should be enough so.

Joel Gardner 7:18
It's possible or it's likely.

Jason Gibbs 7:22
It it it it it is true?
Well, I mean, I I I wouldn't be able to well, competency gets pretty far West, but there's definitely an undescribed species that looks like it.
Uh, it kind of, I guess.
Oregon probably.
At least Oregon, but probably Jason States as well, so.

Joel Gardner 7:43
I thought you couldn't sleep.
We've definitely got some here in Washington and I I asked the Lena about it and he thinks that methylbenzene doesn't occur there.

Jason Gibbs 7:55
Yeah.

Joel Gardner 7:55
Last time I talked to him.

Jason Gibbs 7:57
Yeah, that sounds that sounds very plausible.
So yeah, so if you have anything from, if you're not region and you think you have masculinity, it probably more interesting.
And since it's described but it, it won't be undescribed for long.
So if you if you wanna contribute specimens to the type series of the of the species like.
OK, so the other option for a couple at 8 is the storm is really close to redose and the other sort of characters are variable.

Joel Gardner 8:32
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 8:33
I'm gonna kind of Scroll down to the images of this cause.
Maybe it'll be helpful.
Umm so.

Davis, Jason M. (DNREC) joined the meeting

Jason Gibbs 8:41
On in this kind of center top is the situation with Mackenzie and Brooke Manning, where if you're if you have a nice diffuse light, you should be able to clearly see punctures with the sort of the smooth background.
Umm, but if you, but if you're struggling to see any punctures then go the other way.
Go to complete 10 umm and I guess the distinction between the next couple is basically how coarsely rugose means episternal is umm and did truncate them and syncopes and this key which I think you've also ran into a couple weeks ago.
It's quite coarsely sculptured.
You can see some kind of shining Interstate, you know, spaces between those big wrinkles.
Umm.
Whereas in the other species we'll cover today.
Yeah, sculpturing is is much smaller the the the wrinkles are a little bit tight, more tightly packed, perhaps duller generally speaking.
Umm.
And this is where we're gonna go to today.
And and you this is obviously this is an eastern key, but some of these species go quite far West.
And you know, this kind of splits.
There are some species in the West that would probably there are probably closely related to truncate them and so you'll see if things out there that look similar.
Umm, it's good to look at the intermediate tibial spurs on Western species that have the kind of coarser sculpture and see.
Love, you know, jump in, Joel.

Joel Gardner 10:22
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 10:24
Joel, if you have anything else to add in about that, but there's quite a few species.
In the kind of the West, but we're still no one really looked at them closely enough to sort of work about, yes, so.

Joel Gardner 10:39
It is a is is cooly I in that that same group as truncate them.

Jason Gibbs 10:46
Yeah, I think so.

Joel Gardner 10:47
Fix it.

Jason Gibbs 10:49
You know, one of the characters of, you know, truncate and that's quite noticeable in the mails that the goddess Stylie are quite big and long that lots of really.
Fumos city at the end of the.

Joel Gardner 11:04
Yeah, the.

Jason Gibbs 11:05
Umm.
Kind of like a little, you know, broccoli kind of coming up from the top almost.
And that's also true of some of these Western these species.
But there's a lot of older names that are not well known like Arcturus pulley laborers that probably have priority over a lot of the other names.
And I'll ask get sorted out.
But they also have similar seem to have similar sort of genitalia in the management.
That's probably the, you know, the next major project to do this sort of some of those pieces to me.

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Jason Gibbs 11:47
OK.
And then in the West, there's actually a lot more evaas at the true evaas, but they they have similar material spurs to sync types, but the for podium is much less coarsely sculptured.
So yeah, if you look see something that looks vaguely sick types like, but not quite.
So coarsely sculptured on the.
The podium.
It's probably never lies, but there's a few species.
OK.
So we're going to go to the music.
Men minute post on rugulose so regulos the the extra little syllable there, it just means it's it's it's kind of a diminutive, so it's not as ghosts as the other species, and usually a lot of these have kind of longer hits.
So if you're measuring that head to like ratio, they tend to be longer than syncopes and truncate them and then analyze analyze all kind of kind of white heads.

Joel Gardner 12:53
It's a pretty distinctively wide head to.

Jason Gibbs 12:57
That way.

Joel Gardner 12:59
I was.
I was looking at the the where the key goes and it's his lust strands.
The only one that doesn't have a longer head.

Jason Gibbs 13:10
Umm.
Let's see.
I mean Commagene and see is probably the other one that's kind of a little bit less one of these characters is it's less wide than some of the others, but it's.

Joel Gardner 13:23
OK.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's.

Jason Gibbs 13:25
That would be the only other one that maybe would go that way.

Joel Gardner 13:29
I can't say I've seen many of those.

Jason Gibbs 13:34
Well, I have one here, so maybe we'll see one today. OK.
So if if we go to the the Rugulose character with the head usually longer, we'll come to a couple of 12 and then we get into this, umm carinate versus, you know a carinate or Carina lists for podium umm and this is basically whether or not the korina extends all the way up to the.
The posterior surface of the podium to kind of the dorsal margin.
I think we sort of seen that probably before by the.
Here this is a reminder.
Air this other screen.
But you said.
It doesn't focus.
Ah.
Alright, let's move.
So this is the posterior surface of the prodigium, and you're looking for a Carina that runs up the side and usually meets this kind of a bleak corona that comes up here.
So I'm looking for a vertical corona in this location.
It's a little hard to see in this particular damage.
Umm.
Whereas in the weekly the A carinated Torino is species, the corona only go about halfway and we disconnected from any kind of Carina that you might see on that bleak here, which is usually pretty big anyway, sometimes long it's going off.

Joel Gardner 15:36
I think I might have a better view of it on on my scope.

Jason Gibbs 15:39
That's OK.
That would be great, it's.

Droege, Sam 15:42
What species?
Jason, are we looking at?

Jason Gibbs 15:45
Ohh, this happens to be Commagene incy.

Droege, Sam 15:51
Very northern species.

Jason Gibbs 16:00
Yeah.
Unshare so George shared his rules.

Joel Gardner 16:15
Alright, so this is a kebab can see which is in that same group as homogeneous C.
So here is that Carina.
That goes up the side of the proposed theum.
Actually I can probably do man on it a little bit more.
This is a pretty nice specimen.
All this Cdr sticking straight up so they not obscuring this Carina at all.
See.
Yeah, here and then here.
That's where it is and it's it's getting up to the to the top basically.

Maffei, Clare J 17:15
And what about when there's, like, there's a there's a character in discover life where it's talking about at the very top of that, when there is a AV or a U shape, Ariana that might be formed there.

Joel Gardner 17:37
Uh, that is.
That is, the V shaped are you shaped trying to as this this second carino that this is the lateral corino and that goes up to the dorsal surface.
And then there's this second one that's called the oblique Carina.
That kind of sits on the border between the the the proposal triangle and then this rear surface and this oblique here.
I know that is the one that some.
It's sometimes extends laterally up that way, so it separates the proportial triangle from the lateral surface to and that makes it sort of an aviar you shape when it does that.
So when these picota gaastra the two corini sort of meat, so it it's almost like the condition that in Egypt postman where they have that complete circular Carina around the proposed Yum, although it's not quite as strong in in these movies.

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Droege, Sam 18:45
And in the.

Maffei, Clare J 18:46
So are we.

Jason Gibbs 18:46
Which?

Maffei, Clare J 18:47
Is there a determination between these that have like that?
Again, postman umm at the very end of the proposed Yum.
Or are we just looking at these lateral edges or are we gonna come to that later in the key?

Jason Gibbs 19:02
Uh, well, yeah.
I mean the the distinction between the carronades and the Coriolis species is that the how strong that level of Brianna is in like whether or not it reaches all the way to the dorsal margin, it meets that kind of oblique.
Carina.
Umm, so in some of the older literature you'll see people talk about Carina Emilias and Acarina Elias.
Umm.
And then sort of the missionary classification that can be used in the world, all of the coronavirus species, I don't know, you know, with the short Corina, he would have included within dialectics.

Joel Gardner 19:30
Which?

Jason Gibbs 19:40
So he would he would call those like the black die like this.
But now that's now we sort of recognize that those ones with this short Karina are more closely related to Emil like this not Mitch.
I mean, Missioner knew that too, but he just wasn't prepared to do it with other biology.
So maybe I'll I'll I have one that's got weaker.

Maffei, Clare J 20:00
Cool.

Jason Gibbs 20:02
Carina, which hopefully is visible enough.
It's maybe I'll try to share that.
So yeah, so here's one again, we're looking at the podium and you know you don't, you don't see as strong Carina in this area.
So we have the proposal triangle up here and there's this kind of vaguely kind of, you know what sometimes called the dorsal lateral slope.
That's kind of vaguely triangular area between the you know, the dorsal surface and the lateral surface, and the posterior surface.
It's kind of area here and that's it.
If there is any kind of.
Oblique Carina.
There it's very distinct line.
It's a very thin line.
In line and it doesn't connect to the lateral column, so the lateral usually kind of comes up.
About halfway and then the.
It's clear that's it.
So you'll see both.
You'll see those kind of states all across.

Joel Gardner 21:12
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 21:17
United States, Canada.
OK.
So that jump that brings us to couplet 13.
So these are the carinate species and this is where we have this sort of.
Relative length of the head.
Although there is a lot of it, they kind of overlap.
So if you look at those ratios, they kind of bump up against one another.
No, and this whole group is very challenging to identify.
This is sometimes referred to as.
You know, if you're talking about globally, it's the fully corny for telling group, but those are Western like a sorry European Palearctic species.
Umm, so we might call this the Quebec NC kind of group around here.
Mom, the in the females.
It's really, really subtle.
If you ever think you're catching any of these and you find a male.
100% pulled the dental yet with the mail cause the males are completely diagnosed diagnosable by the male genitalia by the shape of the the retro slobe.
But the females are really, really subtle.
Umm.
And you know, I would struggle to identify these chest from females, especially in areas where they overlap.
Umm, so.
So just a little background.
So Quebec NBC is kind of a species that you sort of expect to find.
It's widespread, but you you sort of expect to see it in the Northeast along the Appalachians.

Joel Gardner 22:55
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 23:01
Umm.
And and then the other three tend to be a bit more northern and distribution.

Droege, Sam 23:10
Do any of those Jason do any of those crossover into Northern Europe since they're so far north, you know, sometimes you get that or are they strictly North American?

Jason Gibbs 23:11
Yeah, yeah.
So it gets kind of complicated.
So last week, Glosson Borealis, which kind of comes out in a couple of 15.
Oops.
Umm is is was actually described from Europe and.
So it but and, but it's range.
If you look at this range, it kind of extends all across kind of northern Canada, down kind of Rocky Mountains.
There's also records of it from like Mountain in New Hampshire, Umm, and they all kind of look the same, but you know, early work and the like, the 90s by like Lawrence Packer.

Joel Gardner 23:52
Enter.

Jason Gibbs 23:59
Umm and others basically show that there's a lot of genetic diversity.
Across all these mountain ranges, and it's not at all clear what's going on.
So it's probably all kinds of cryptic species.

Droege, Sam 24:11
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 24:11
Yeah, it's really.

Droege, Sam 24:12
Well, during glacial glacial maximum, of course, all their current range was under snow and they would have been pushed into these subranges.
And then and certainly it couldn't mess around with trips to Europe.
So yeah, it makes sense that it would get get complicated and that you may have to divide things by ultimately by range.

Jason Gibbs 24:31
Yep.
Yep.
And then so so again, yeah, I mean, and all of these, you know, you're hoping you get mails because that's the way that you can identify them.
But like in where I am in Manitoba and we get all four of them in theory, but we I we tend not to see them like where I am and Winnipeg.
It's so kind of when you get up into the boreal forest, they start popping up some of these, you know, you'll commonly see in my blueberries, you know, collections, they kind of have a slightly longer faces.
They like those sorts of plants.
Right.
And then jump back to my screen.
Jump away.
I'm so in addition to the head length, there's sort of two other characters that I sort of talked about, which is, you know, the intermediate tibial spurs, how like long the branches are.

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Jason Gibbs 25:25
Uh again, that's subtle and probably the the other sort of bit character is if you look at T the surface T1, that's interior kind of dorsals, like dorsal slope kind of surface.

Joel Gardner 25:34
That's.

Jason Gibbs 25:39
Whether or not you see those sort of fingerprint type, uh micro sculpture, or if it's just really smooth and shiny.
Uh, so, Quebec, Nancy is the one and southern species.
Shalom.
If anyone here speaks key like you could ask when I can.
I'm thinking like weird.
I'm those two go to the sort of dull kind of T1 and slightly longer heads and longer teeth, and then the other two go the other way for reality and convention and see.
So yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 26:14
Hey, we have a question in the chat, if you're able to demonstrate length width measurements.
I think we did talk about it before, but since we're talking about it directly here with an obscure group would probably be helpful.
No.

Jason Gibbs 26:28
Measurements of heads.

Droege, Sam 26:31
I think that's what they're talking about.

Maffei, Clare J 26:31
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 26:32
Yeah.
How how do you define your width and how do you define your length?

Joel Gardner 26:36
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 26:38
So these would have all been measured in. Umm.
Sorry, I'm gonna.
We'll just stop sharing for a second.
So you have to watch me scroll but.
These were measured in the way that I used to always do them, which is kind of from the top of the vertex.
The end of the clipeus for the head length and then across you know the maximum width of the eyes.
For the the head width, this is different from some of the stuff that Joel did where he used that the face length up to the the median ocellus because that's a little bit easier to measure it consistent.

Droege, Sam 27:17
The the front of the acellus or the rear of the acellus.

Jason Gibbs 27:17
It.

Joel Gardner 27:21
The front of the cells.

Jason Gibbs 27:22
Different like the lower part.

Droege, Sam 27:24
Umm.

Joel Gardner 27:25
But for this key you want to measure from the top of the vertex.

Jason Gibbs 27:30
Yeah, that's when all those I am just struggling slightly to find.

Droege, Sam 27:38
And of course you need to have a measuring reticule for your Sol.

Jason Gibbs 27:44
It.

Joel Gardner 27:46
Yep, it's possible that I have all this some extent, but.
Uh, yeah, definitely does help.

Droege, Sam 27:55
Although I suppose if you were doing it on a screen, in other words not, you had your as more and more microscopes.
Are you could simply measure off the screen.

Jason Gibbs 28:08
So this is from the key.
This is the all the head shapes of the evelise and spicola gastro kind of side by side.
Umm, so upper left is a centipedes.
That's the kind of wide head. Umm.
And then if you can see my notes and fixing the new ones, umm, then this would be the one kind of beside it.
I didn't or smoking here.
Well, sorry, the one beside it is we'll be borealis.
And the one beside that should be comma agency.
So there not particularly long, but they're a little bit stretched out compared to like the Quebec Inc and then.
Umm.
F would be should be Quebec and C and then G is a shalon species.
So there are a little bit stretched, but not they're not enormously long.
And so yeah, those measurements are are bit subtle.
And you know, it would be a real struggle to identify these, you know, without males.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 29:34
So how useful is it to just look at again?

Joel Gardner 29:34
You know, we just.

Droege, Sam 29:37
Many people don't have these measuring devices, so if we look at a you can see that the clipeus does not extend that far below the imaginary line across the bottoms.

Joel Gardner 29:38
Happy.

Jason Gibbs 29:49
Umm Yep.

Droege, Sam 29:50
But do you?
Is that how usable do you find that people you know is that usable for people?
And do you include that in any of your?
I know you do it in descriptions sometimes, but.

Jason Gibbs 30:02
Yeah.
I mean, I think, yeah, this falls into the yeah.
For if I was, you know, usually on my ball in these when I'm identifying I'm not usually measuring them.
Ohh, I'm just doing routine identification, so for things like the true Elias Syncopes and it's relatives.
Yeah, you can just eyeball that.
That shape and the way the clypeus doesn't protrude that much, is a good part of that.
Now eat which is which should be, you know, theory kind of maybe a a roaches that but you didn't recognize that based on all the you know the unique kind of scope and things like that.

Droege, Sam 30:28
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 30:43
So yeah, so I'm, I mean, I guess the takeaway, I mean you get if you if you have females of this group, this Quebec, NC at all group, you're gonna really struggle.

Joel Gardner 30:45
Yeah, but that.

Jason Gibbs 30:57
Unless you happen to be in an area where you know if you're collecting the Appalachians probably is Quebec's umm, there is there is some try to find the key again, but usually especially in the east.

Droege, Sam 31:04
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 31:13
Look, I can't see usually has fairly distinct like.
Can almost banding on on the apical Mart margins of the TurboTax excuse me?
Whereas the other species tend not to have that.
It's not like a thick, strong band like the whole like this, but it's, you know what I call these sort of apical lateral Stingray.
They're just kind of this short hairs on the apex.

Droege, Sam 31:46
Yeah, let me you know, we get tons of Quebec answer and we get almost none of the others.
Rarely do we even get sync to peas, and so my vibe, but I don't know if this would be useful for the northern ones.
Is that the skew?
Dum is incredibly dull, right?
No reflections uniform, you know, patterning neither.

Jason Gibbs 32:06
Yep.

Droege, Sam 32:12
But you can't see pits really.
Offhand, this is just, you know, from Mile High almost and that the yes, there's this weak striping weak banding of hairs along the rims of the tergites and that the back end, those lateral Corina are incredibly straight and it looks like it's boxed off the end.
But I don't know if that helps on those northern ones, but that's sort of my ohh I can identify them with a snap when I see them here, but I'm not contrasting them with anything other than sync to piece and the odd trunk forum, which has other pretty I mean you can you know when you're not looking at a Quebec entity with those other two.

Jason Gibbs 32:58
Right, yeah.

Droege, Sam 32:59
But do the other, the northern ones have?
Umm, issues.
Are they?
You know, in terms of like what we mentioned there with the dullness and the squareness of the prodim, are they?

Jason Gibbs 33:11
I mean they they all look very similar morphological and they're all closer related.

Droege, Sam 33:13
OK.
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 33:17
So this this is kind of this is a Quebec Nancy here just kind of showing some of those kind of errors that you see and towards the apex and the the termites.
So I know it's not a strong thick band, but it's there's definitely hairs there.

Droege, Sam 33:30
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 33:32
Where is usually the rest of them are fairly kind of bald.
You wouldn't.
You wouldn't know.
You wouldn't remark on the hairs.

Droege, Sam 33:40
Right.

Jason Gibbs 33:41
There's some few things to do.

Droege, Sam 33:42
And quit and quit back end C in our area and I will say the Appalachians are almost entirely restricted to forests and almost entirely oddly for lazy blossom restricted to the spring sync types.

Jason Gibbs 33:44
What's that?

Joel Gardner 33:46
And then.
Sure.

Droege, Sam 33:58
Fields under power lines, all kinds of odds and ends.

Joel Gardner 33:59
Like.

Droege, Sam 34:01
Places we see so them so infrequently, I don't even know if they occur ever in The Woodlands.

Jason Gibbs 34:10
Yeah, I probably the most abundant ones I see is, you know, in collections is when people are working with various which kind of matches what you said.
The people doing globish blueberry research or something like that?

Droege, Sam 34:20
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 34:21
Well, sometimes catch series of these.

Joel Gardner 34:26
When I was doing my masters, I was collecting bees and Itaska State Park, which is pretty much all forest.
And there was like a couple days where there was a there was a sumac in bloom and it was chock full of hundreds and thousands of of syncopes because, like the most I've seen ever in one place.

Jason Gibbs 34:48
Beautiful.

Droege, Sam 34:48
Hmm.

Joel Gardner 34:52
So they they can be locally abundant and they can occur in forested areas.

Jason Gibbs 35:09
So you're gonna jump.
So this is there's a there's a figure just in the key for the males to give you a sense of the.

Joel Gardner 35:16
Really.

Jason Gibbs 35:28
So this is like kind of looking at the lateral view of the male genitalia and these black arrows are kind of pointing to the the retro slope.
So that's this kind of memoryless lobe that it's kind of projects back towards the bee from the base of the gonna stylus.
So this is the stylus appear umm boreale it's you know, I I kind of make a shape with my you know my hand, you know, cutting off at the wrists.
That's more reality.
Umm Commagene Ansi is like kind of your full forearm with your hand kind of curved back.
That's.
Imagine antsy and then Quebec anti is kind of like most of your forearm was kind of fingers together and then shalon.
If you see it, it's it's kind of like more.
Umm, because it comes to a very fine point.
And whereas Shalon's kind of comes to kind of a rounded edge.

Droege, Sam 36:29
You should make a I have to interject and say you should make a tick tock video of your genitalia.
And puppets.

Jason Gibbs 36:38
I I did.
I did use it in a talk once.
It's the first ever Shadow puppet key of bees, but.
Yeah, I'm.

Joel Gardner 36:47
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 36:47
I'm not a tick tock, so I someone else can do that.
But you know when you get further W, there's some complicating things.
So there's a species in the West called last year.
Loss open.
I groom and it has the very much a Commagene Nancy type.

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Jason Gibbs 37:07
Retro still open, so it's kind of like this. No.
So you have to be cautious or you looking and that's the spec that kind of is the Rocky Mountain, that additional vision and there's a few other old names that exist that exist in this group as well.

Maffei, Clare J 37:26
I think some people might appreciate a quick video at some point of being brave enough to pull such tiny butts out.

Joel Gardner 37:30
Yeah.

Maffei, Clare J 37:36
I know that sometimes it's really hesitant to do them with even larger bees.
Super delicate there.

Jason Gibbs 37:43
I would say you know, for me, I do it when I'm pinning.
So like I usually pinned my bees and the microscope.
And so as I'm putting the I put the pin in the bee.
That helped me put the pin where I want it to be and I pin the be and at the same time I can take.
I can quickly look at it and say ohh that's a colitis mail.
I definitely wanna look at, you know, the hidden stern.
Stern is of that, and so I just, you know, I have a pin or a pair of fine forceps.
And when they're fresh and soft, yeah.
You just kind of hold them so that the, you know, the abdomen is kind of not, you know, ohh.
While she's gonna keep it tight and you just go in there and yank it out, it's, you know, umm, the way I cut the thing, I always kind of remark is that, you know, if you as you sort of pull, you sort of tugging them out, you'll feel a point where the tissue breaks.
Umm, there's kind of like a a ripping sensation and when you do that then they won't retract back into the body.
Uh, if you put them too far, they'll detach completely, and then you have to do something, but.

Droege, Sam 38:51
What's your process with dried specimens in terms of pulling genitalia?
How do you soften them?

Jason Gibbs 38:56
Umm I use a like a relaxing chamber.
You know, in when I was doing all this work out of my apartment and I was before I got hired here and I had my own lab and I just had, like, a a big Tupperware container with a nice sealing lid.
And I just put like some foam in the bottom and little bit of tissue paper to absorb or like a paper towel to absorb excess moisture and this water and this little bit.

Droege, Sam 39:25
Hot water.

Jason Gibbs 39:25
What?
What hot water makes it go faster?

Droege, Sam 39:25
Cold water.

Jason Gibbs 39:31
And I think, you know, we have these sort of and I know I also forget what you calling but there is like glass ohh containers with with like a really tightly sealed kind of blasted that's what we use here.
And I think we usually have some kind of umm.
What's what's the term like essential oil in there?
Just to kind of minimize and fungal.

Droege, Sam 39:56
The the clove oil.

Jason Gibbs 39:57
Yeah, yeah.
Global.
Yeah, exactly.
It's gonna minimize fungal.
And you live in there for 24 hours.

Droege, Sam 40:03
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 40:05
It if they're like, you know, 75 years old, it's harder.
But if you collected in the last couple of years.
Really important.
Almost all your gentle of your breasts.

Joel Gardner 40:20
Are you really need to put them in longer than 24 hours?
Maybe, maybe mine isn't even good enough.

Jason Gibbs 40:26
It's.
Yeah, I'd say, you know, the water is hotter it sometimes it works faster.

Joel Gardner 40:30
OK.

Jason Gibbs 40:32
Umm but yeah, I just gotta you know, I I test them and like if you if you kind of poke it at the at at the end of the abdomen or if you like like if you're not picking it and trying to test whether or not you want to hold the bee like if the legs feel crispy split back but if the legs are kind of you know mobile then you're probably good to go.
OK.
You know, this is a bit of a.
And they a distraction maybe with.

Joel Gardner 41:03
Yeah.
Yeah, but yeah, definitely.
The best time to do that is when they're fresh and you're painting them.

Jason Gibbs 41:18
Yeah.
Other than that, there's not much.
I don't have much else to say about this group of other than you know doing the best.

Droege, Sam 41:28
What's your ratio of males to females though in that group?

Jason Gibbs 41:31
Ah yes, it's going to be low.

Droege, Sam 41:32
Isn't it really low?

Jason Gibbs 41:34
Yeah, for sure.
So you know, I I don't know what to say other than, you know, if if you if you if you're doing a survey of bees and you really interested in getting these species and you've collected lots of females maybe go back, you know, a little bit later and see when that you can find some mails.

Droege, Sam 41:57
You should be if you have a long series, you then have comparative material and you should be able to Morphosys sort and then determine the groups should be you know more using your keys you have greater chance.

Jason Gibbs 42:13
Yeah, it depends on where you are.
So if you're in the like, if you're in, you know, anywhere from, like, kind of like upstate New York, Appalachians kind of, I mean I assume it's probably Quebec.
Imagine Nancy is maybe an option, but.
If you're on a, whatever the name of that mountain is now, Graham or something in Hampshire might have more reality up there.

Droege, Sam 42:35
Uh, right?
The White Mountains.

Jason Gibbs 42:38
Yeah.
OK.
So I guess.

Droege, Sam 42:43
It's Mount Washington is the one where it was found on.

Jason Gibbs 42:47
Oh, there you go.
I don't know where my gram is.
Ohh, maybe that's in.
There.
So OK, so if we jump to wanna jump to a couple of 16 for the cryonis ones, but umm let's anyone has any question?

Droege, Sam 42:52
Yeah.

JP joined the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 43:05
Just some appreciation for this very useful discussion.

Jason Gibbs 43:10
OK.
You're welcome.
This is one of my I don't I like this beef.
This is last year Glosson most strands.
It's actually usually pretty easy to identify because it's it's got two submarginal cells.
Share the key again for a SEC.

Droege, Sam 43:37
You can tell us about the distribution too.

Jason Gibbs 43:40
Yeah.
So this is a species that kind of mostly in the United States.
I mean it there's like 1 specimen that gets into Southern Ontario.
Umm.
You know, kind of eastern gets up into the Midwest in Michigan, kind of Wisconsin type of distribution.

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Jason Gibbs 44:05
Umm.
And it's, it seems to be a specialist in through most of its range on this planet called Pyrococcus, which is this little yellow kind of low.
So dandelion, like chicory.
Chicory tribe.
But when you get further north, that plant doesn't exist anymore and so it switches over to related general like krigia on.

Droege, Sam 44:33
It isn't it.

Jason Gibbs 44:33
But it's kind of pretty just.

Droege, Sam 44:34
It's also a, isn't it?
Also a San specialist, I mean, that's where we find it down here.

Jason Gibbs 44:38
Of.
Yeah.
No, I suppose.
I mean, I've seen it and I've seen it in kind of the edges of blueberry fields, but those were relatively sandy, I guess.

Droege, Sam 44:49
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 44:52
Now it is.
It it's not as easy as that occurs in Canada, so I don't really see it.
I don't collect it itself very often.
Yes, I used to see in Michigan.
See if I can actually that.
But we're trying to share, but usually they have two submarginal cells, although occasionally he have found specimens that have a week, you know.
Original cell that's present and I don't know if you can sort of believe me here, but that either.
This inner metal spur does not have, like the big, long, technate branches that you see in a lot of other dialect disks, and you like this.
It's just these little fine.

Droege, Sam 45:45
Can't see your?
Can't see you? Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 45:47
Ooh, ooh, sorry and made my usual mistake of getting out of one share in.

Droege, Sam 45:53
You're doing.
You're doing very well today, Jason.

Jason Gibbs 45:56
Yeah.
OK, hopefully you can see that.

Maffei, Clare J 45:58
Yeah, it's it.
We've all gotten in the flow.

Joel Gardner 46:00
You don't have.

Maffei, Clare J 46:01
Well done.

Jason Gibbs 46:06
Probably you can see that spur.
So there's the outer spur, which is on top, and that's, you know, the usual, you know, doesn't have any particularly strong branches on it, but then the inner spur, which is kind of this lower one uh, is this very short kind of oblique kind of teeth, but not big branches.
That's together.
So that's this is characteristic.

Maffei, Clare J 46:33
We're trying to sharpen that a tad bit.

Jason Gibbs 46:36
I I mean I can try.
Let's see.
But they need to only if my.

Joel Gardner 46:42
We.

Droege, Sam 46:47
Hmm.

Joel Gardner 46:47
There are also, yeah, there, there, there are excellent illustrations of all of these servers in the key.

Droege, Sam 46:47
Jason, what are the?

Maffei, Clare J 46:55
OK.

Jason Gibbs 46:56
Yeah, I I kind of drew them.

Maffei, Clare J 46:57
And tastic, let's just see.

Droege, Sam 47:00
Are are these digging tools or grasping tools?
What would you say?
Spurs.

Jason Gibbs 47:09
Yeah.
I mean, I think they're, it's it's.
I think that I think it's articulated.
So I think they probably use them in, umm, someone didn't tell me if I'm crazy, but I think it's, you know, manipulation of Holland the body.

Joel Gardner 47:21
Cool.
I I would agree with that theory seems plausible to me, especially because it's all needed inner spur.
So you can imagine like the be rubbing its hind legs together and then the inner spur is kind of scrape the sea and the and the inside of the other leg.

Jason Gibbs 47:50
And you usually in the males, you don't see the same branching pattern as you've got some.
They usually simple when you see the net.
Yeah, I mean.
Umm.
Yeah, it's speed.
So the other thing about this is they tend to have quite a bit of like appressed hairs.
It's almost like a dialect is kind of fan and they have a lot of hairs on the anterior surface of T1.
You tend not to see it supporting Astrid just has kind of vertically.
Hairs generally speaking like a rectors, but this has this kind of broad.
And appressed so oppressed hairs.
So that's fairly typical of of lush strands.

Droege, Sam 48:56
I you know something that I see as relatively unique and it's difficult to describe, but the proposal triangle area is pretty broad and is, let's say, crafted in a way that's different from many of the others.
A lot of times that catches my eye when this uncommon species shows up, and then I look for the two submarginal cells, but.

Jason Gibbs 49:22
I'll see if I can make that visible without too much.
Yeah, it's, you know, there's almost.
It's kind of there's almost like an extra kind of like curve right here.
It's almost.
You know what shape that would be, but to me it kind of comes and then kind of angles to like this kind of a bit of a, you know, oblique kind of angle right here where it kind of bends here and then those fine kind of really that kind of splatter out.

Droege, Sam 50:00
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 50:04
Yeah, but you're right.
Only shake is a bit tearful.
Yeah, definitely a good one to see and you know.
Document what flower you clicked it from.
I'm gonna jump back to the the key.
2 minutes.
Try this again.
It's.
OK, so this one you know the the the next kind of lead is the Intermediate School or spur is pectate it's a big strong branches doesn't have that kind of a pressed hair on T1 and you know the typical non mutant has three submarginal cells.
So your typical dialogue.
This umm, I think you covered foxy eye before.
Umm, but the other species that looks very similar is infant item and this is actually one that people usually I sometimes see the mixing it up with the Quebec entity group.
It gets kind of lost in the mix sometimes.
Try to see if I can ever get enough stuff in to.
And some of the older literature, you'll see this listed as Roofing Tarsis, they reflect Arseny.
Umm, but that's a European species and it basically turns out that you know that pins typing what they've been confirmed.
And that's slightly.

Droege, Sam 52:19
Also very northern.

Jason Gibbs 52:22
Yeah.
And one of the key ways.

Droege, Sam 52:26
What's the habitat?
Hmm, sorry, go ahead.

Jason Gibbs 52:29
Ohh habitat.
You know.
Yes, I think about too much and.
To be a city there.
Tell me.
They have to look at the distribution.

Droege, Sam 53:00
Kim.

Jason Gibbs 53:00
Umm, but the the way that you sort of distinguish this from something like foxy eye is that the this this sculpture and comes all the way to the rim.
So you have this kind of crested, sorry.

Droege, Sam 53:14
A picture.
At the picture.

Jason Gibbs 53:19
Ohh.
Oh, it's not.
It's not there.

Droege, Sam 53:23
Yep.

Jason Gibbs 53:23
Rats.
Totally thought was good.

Maffei, Clare J 53:25
While we switch, I signed up, say Matthew Carlson says.

Joel Gardner 53:28
That's it.

Maffei, Clare J 53:29
In Alaska, it's common in openings and boreal forests, burns everywhere, really.

Droege, Sam 53:35
Hmm.

Jason Gibbs 53:35
You know.

Joel Gardner 53:36
Yeah, it's also very common here in Washington.
On it, it shows up mostly in the western part of the stage and in the and in the north and the Far East.
It's so it's it's not in the deserts.
It doesn't like.
It doesn't like those those dry, hot habits habits.
So you find it like in in temperate zones, forested zones, that kind of area.

Jason Gibbs 54:09
Gotta play with the light a little bit, but yeah, basically the you have these sort of irregular kind of wrinkles review on the podium and they come right to the rim is a fairly distinct rim kind of Crescent shaped rim across.
Otherwise it looks you know overall body shape that looks very much like Foxy.
I kind of a longish face.
I can see that you know it doesn't have those oppressed hairs on T1.
Would like a Austrians does doesn't really have much in the way of like tomentum like these sort of pressed short branched hairs on the terabytes.
Yeah.
And it's and it's not too, it's not too large.
It's maybe like 5 or 6 millimeters.
So and intermediate size and.
You know what you call that color?
Kind of like that kind of a blackish.
It kind of almost bluish black, I don't know.
Yeah, but these are, yeah, it's widespread and.
You're more likely to, you know, and it gets mixed up with FOXY, but also gets mixed up with like, you know, the Quebec and see kind of borealis kind of see it.
And it's kind of it for the key for the females anyway.

Joel Gardner 55:40
15 minutes.

Jason Gibbs 55:41
And if you're in the West and you see something and you see something that looks like foxy eye, there's two major groups out there that have the kind of the wrinkles that kind of go only partial the way.
So there's kind of smooth rim and if you see those in the West, you wanna look at the puncture density of the skew them and they're either, you know, quite close.
You know, like within one puncture diameter of each other or there's some definite gaps and kind of smoother and shinier.
And there are two two species or two species complexes.

Joel Gardner 56:20
Alright, these described species or undescribed.

Jason Gibbs 56:24
Yeah.
So we we're it's unclear exactly.
I'm sorry it's unclear exactly how many species.
There's only two now if there's more.
But there's the oldest name for one that has the wanna say the sparse punctures is roof of corny, but also in that is called James or Paul Varis.
And then the other one is uh, dietary item slash syntheis.
With maybe vaporum.
Yeah. So.
The the holotype of SYNTHEIS is absent without leave, so it's a little bit unclear.
I don't know where it belongs.
But.
Or if it's even an active.
So, so Diatreta was a safe name, and if a corny you said.
For to those teachers.

Joel Gardner 57:35
OK.
That is, that is news to me.

Jason Gibbs 57:39
Ah, so yeah, I do.

Joel Gardner 57:40
And.

Jason Gibbs 57:42
I do mention them those those names in this in the discussion of Foxy eye. Umm.
Let me see if I can verify dude part of part of this.
I mean we have DNA barcodes from that complex and there's like 2 distinct groups, but part of the issue is we need some more material from, like the type localities of roof of coronary to figure it out.
Umm.
And knowing where the type of syntheis would be but want to.

Joel Gardner 58:17
We have a syntheis in the collection here that was determined by by McKinley, so it's it's not the type, but he might have seen it.

Jason Gibbs 58:28
And is it the foxy eye group?

Joel Gardner 58:31
I don't remember.
It's been a while since I looked at it.
Alright, I'll look at it again.

Jason Gibbs 58:38
Yeah.
So yeah, so dietary this is ohh actually dietis is an older name.

Joel Gardner 58:39
Yes.

Jason Gibbs 58:45
So diet Treatise is a good name, so that is, umm has the sparser punctures umm and umm Ruffa.
Cornay seems to have the denser punctures.
Umm there there's like half a dozen names in this group.
So, umm, we have a we have one of the pair types of syntheis and it is actually an inconditional.
So, but all the specimens.
We've seen identified by Cockerill or 8 quart Umm, they're not.
So it's unclear whether or not the type series with mixed.
We're not really sure what to do with that name at this point.
If it's the type.
Umm.

Maffei, Clare J 59:39
Will add golf courses around airports.

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Jason Gibbs 59:44
Sorry, what was that?

Maffei, Clare J 59:47
Will Peterman adds golf courses and around airports as bots.

Jason Gibbs 59:51
Is that what you?
That's where you find out pounds.

Droege, Sam 59:53
Umm.

Joel Gardner 59:57
Also worth mentioning.

Maffei, Clare J 59:58
About unconditional.

Joel Gardner 1:00:00
Yep, Speaking of income datum, as far as I know, that's just one species.
Even in the West, so it's very common here and it you don't have to worry about it being a difficult complex at at least not yet.

Jason Gibbs 1:00:18
Uh, yeah.
But you know, if there is anything like cryptic within incendium is probably somewhere you know further South in California.
Umm, but.
The other thing is that if you have males of, so I'm just going to show you the this is an incendium face, so it's a bit long.
Uh click is kind of shooting out and.
If you have males, you can also look at the retro slopes.
One of them comes to kind of an acute point and the other is kind of a rounded, you know, kind of rounded lobe.
So OK, you can also distinguish the mails as well. Umm.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 1:01:12
I'm gonna.
I'm gonna bail.
Keep keep the conversation going.
I've got another zoom session that I have to attend, so I'm gonna say bye.
Thank you very much.
And we'll see people next week.

Joel Gardner 1:01:23
Let's see.

Droege, Sam 1:01:25
So but keep going.
I'm just gonna say I'm leaving.

Jason Gibbs 1:01:28
Sure.

Maffei, Clare J 1:01:28
Yeah.
Yeah, we we are basically at the end of the key we have.
We're at couplet 18 with Texana.

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Maffei, Clare J 1:01:38
Umm, etcetera and I, I am not remembering if we did cover those before.

Jason Gibbs 1:01:43
We did those last time, yeah.

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Maffei, Clare J 1:01:44
OK, I thought so.
So wow, great.
We we wrapped that key up.
Ah, fantastic.

Jason Gibbs 1:01:55
Now.

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Maffei, Clare J 1:01:58
Where do we think do we wanna return back to the dialect this next time and go step by step for things that we skipped over or what is your preference?
Ohh great leaders.

Jason Gibbs 1:02:13
I don't have one.
It's.

Maffei, Clare J 1:02:18
Everybody in the crowd wanna say what they like.
I think I do think these step by steps are popular.
They're easy to follow along with.
Umm, well, we've done with the dialect is before is we.
We've basically popped into those really.
Ah, sometimes really challenging groups, but we could go back to picking away at 1 by 1.
Well, the resounding silence indicates that that's our plan.

Jason Gibbs 1:02:55
OK, that's good.

Maffei, Clare J 1:02:59
OK.
Well, thanks guys.
Well, I guess get started with that next week and then return as you're available in January.

Joel Gardner 1:03:08
Sorry, what's our plan?

JP left the meeting

Maffei, Clare J 1:03:12
Jump back to the dialect is key and do you like we did here of like we first started by jumping to?

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Joel Gardner 1:03:13
The the.

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Maffei, Clare J 1:03:23
Umm.
Jumping to the some some of the big couplets and then we've done that with the directors, and now we're gonna go back and kind of start from the beginning to identify characters that we skipped over.

Joel Gardner 1:03:28
Ohh.
Yep, that.
That's how it's good.

Jason Gibbs 1:03:40
It's fine.

Maffei, Clare J 1:03:41
Has a.
All right.
Well, I will.
We'll see you next time.

Jason Gibbs 1:03:48
If someone wants to talk to you, Claire.

Maffei, Clare J 1:03:50
I see that I will stop the recording.
And yeah, David, I'll stay on.

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David Cappaert (Guest) 1:03:54
Cool.

Jason Gibbs 1:03:55
Hi everyone, thanks for your interest.

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Maffei, Clare J 1:03:59
I can't.

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Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription