102_Lasioglossum species_smooth propodeum group_Jason Gibbs_Nov 8 2023

November 8, 2023, 6:01PM

Droege, Sam   0:08
Take it away please.

Jason Gibbs   0:11
Hello everyone.
No, there was a request to talk about last week.
Blossom, Zephyrus and and some other related species, so we'll do that today.

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Jason Gibbs   0:20
Umm Jefferson is probably the most well studied dialect.

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Jason Gibbs   0:27
This terms of his biology.
Yeah, but it's sometimes misspelled.
The literature is zephram except versus actually in a noun, and therefore not subject to gender changes.
So it should be set for us, technically speaking.

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Jason Gibbs   0:46
OK, so one of the classic features of Zephyrus, something trying to share a screen, is that it has a relatively smooth.
Umm, Medical Snowdon or dorsal surface.
The podium.
So this is a Zephyrus here.
Umm.
And it's got a nice kind of smooth kind of rounded apex of they told me, and it's relatively long person today to tell them.
And then I know.
So another feature of Zephyrus is that there's usually a bit of a kind of a greenish tinge to the the metasoma.
You can kind of see here some nice little hair patches.
These are widely on T2.
I have a shiny beat.
You have anything you want to say, Joel, before I well, I'll try to switch to bed head if somebody wants to see their head.

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Joel Gardner   1:51
Umm.
I do, but it it it can probably wait until after we look at the head.

Jason Gibbs   2:04
Here it's it's a really widespread.
Is everyone satisfied?
They've gotten to look at this podium and they're happy.
There is this really widespread bee, so it occurs from like, you know, kind of Carolinas up through across Canada and over to the the West Coast.
Umm.
And it's a social bee that has pretty distinct Cassidy, and you get some really large individuals.
So I can get the head up here like to go out.
I.

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Jason Gibbs   2:56
Yeah.
Gonna stop sharing while I get this and focus, but.
The head is fairly.
Kind of squared.

Joel Gardner   3:16
It's very square and I would say it's very it's very flat.
Especially the clypeus.
It's like it's like if it's, if you imagine this be places like.
Banging its head into a wall.
It looks very flat and.

Jason Gibbs   3:44
Almost there.
She's she's on clay.

Joel Gardner   3:53
There's.

Jason Gibbs   3:56
She's gonna shifting a little bit better.

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Jason Gibbs   4:02
It's not the best focus.
But yeah, the the the click is doesn't protrude very far below.
Well, it doesn't have a really triangular kind of shape.
The head and it depends on has there to cast the sort of the.
Founders is the Queens tend to have even more kind of robust heads and so if it's even more extreme than perhaps discussing.
I see if I can.
So you can go why you would do.
I tend to also have like really finely kind of pretty close punctures on the Super trivial area and quite a bit of kind of.
Quickly branched.
Kind of white.
Errors on that little pair of ocular areas.
We are fairly distinctive bee.

Droege, Sam   5:11
I spend a lot of time initially if I have a hint of it, I just look at the Super Clipeus because it's very rectangular and just very clear set of fine pits at a much greater density and it's like up that's what it is.

Jason Gibbs   5:17
Yeah.

Joel Gardner   5:30
And then yeah, those those really kind of thick plumose seedy on the the lower pair ocular area, so like, right to either side of the Super Clypeal area that is also quite distinctive for a female B?

Droege, Sam   5:52
I will mention that I had a conversation with Eli Wyman, who was in the lab yesterday or a couple days ago, and he mentioned that the only be they've been really super successful with in terms of raising and their Princeton lab.

Joel Gardner   5:53
So.

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Droege, Sam   6:09
We are, at least without struggle.
It has been Zephyrus.

Jason Gibbs   6:15
Yeah, and that might be why it's the most well studied species, because these to do this used to do the same kind of rearing of this be in Kansas.
Back in like the 16?
Yeah, just give myself with this.
Yeah.

Joel Gardner   6:31
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Gibbs   6:31
So this is that's Jefferis.

Joel Gardner   6:34
Yeah, the the the Zephyrus head is kind of distinctive once you kinda get the feel for it, you can just look at the head and be like oh, that looks like a Zephyrus head.

Droege, Sam   6:47
Do you want to show the the plural?
The mazeppa sternum because I think that's another relatively uncommon feature which is heavily pitted and shiny, and between that helps with a confirmation of the species.
If there's any question.

Joel Gardner   7:05
Yep, I was just getting suggest that.

Jason Gibbs   7:05
I could try to find a good specimen.

Joel Gardner   7:09
Yeah.
So while you're setting that up and kind of getting it in focus, I can share my screen and I have I have a on my microscope.

Droege, Sam   7:18
Umm.

Joel Gardner   7:25
Uh, raise your glass.
Some crashes steps, which is a New Mexico species, very, very similar to Zephyrus, is probably the most similar species to Zephyrus, but most people never see it as it only lives in every very restricted area.
And in northern New Mexico.

Droege, Sam   7:46
What is that?

Joel Gardner   7:46
So this is a? Mm-hmm.

Droege, Sam   7:49
What was the name?

Joel Gardner   7:51
Uh.
Crassus steps.
I guess I can.

Droege, Sam   7:54
Him and what was the habitat?

Joel Gardner   7:56
Northern New Mexico.

Droege, Sam   8:00
Is is that upon the plateau or a wooded or?

Joel Gardner   8:04
Uh.
Yeah.
Like it's like up in, like, the Albuquerque area.
Uh, like, they're like, the more higher elevation areas.

Droege, Sam   8:09
Uh-huh.

Joel Gardner   8:15
So like, not not.
It's not a desert bee, it's it's a little more of like a dry temperate zone B.

Droege, Sam   8:19
Yeah.
The ponderosa pine.
Kind of thing.

Joel Gardner   8:26
Yeah.
Not like super high elevation.
So it's not a mountain B, but umm, kind of more of those like northern temperate areas of New Mexico is where it lands probably also you be likely to see it in like bordering states like Eastern Arizona or western Texas?

Droege, Sam   8:38
OK.

Joel Gardner   8:52
Southern Colorado.
But anyway, it looks a lot like Zephyrus uh.
It has very similar head.
It has a really sparsely punctate skewed Dum are the main difference is in the Mesa, best sternum.
So this is the the mysap externum of a crass is steps and you can see that it's not really distinctly punctate.
It's kind of.
It's not really coarsely sculptured, but it's definitely not punctate.
It's kind of like weekly rugulose.
So this is a.
This is what a lot of, uh, other species look like.
And this is a good identifying feature of crisis steps.
So yeah, right in this area.

Jason Gibbs   9:43
Does it doesn't.
Grassy steps have really sparse punctures.
Laterally unscrew them.

Joel Gardner   9:50
It does, yes.

Jason Gibbs   9:51
Which is which is not like Zephyrs, Zephyrus is denser.

Joel Gardner   9:56
A little bit, yeah, it's kind of similar.

Droege, Sam   9:56
And I've got and I have a.
I have obscurum up on the on deck.
Next, if we wanna look at that because that would be, you know, sort of your if you crossed a Zephyrus within obscurum, you would get across apps.

Joel Gardner   10:07
It's.

Droege, Sam   10:14
That's my theory.

Jason Gibbs   10:16
Yeah, I mean we I only have one I have like this the sin type from the crappy steps here and I was looking at yesterday and it was quite sparse.
I mean, it was like a on the speed.
It was like a lineatum kind of sparsity.

Joel Gardner   10:29
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Gibbs   10:29
With this screen I do have before you before you.

Joel Gardner   10:31
Yeah.
So it is it is.

Jason Gibbs   10:33
Yeah.
Sorry, is it Joe?

Joel Gardner   10:36
Yeah, it is.
Crisis steps is more sparsely punctate on the scutum than Zephyrus, but it's it's similar enough that you can get them confused.
And Zephyrus is still pretty sparse compared to a lot of other species.
And then the metasoma also is not green on krasis steps.
That's the third thing.

Jason Gibbs   11:01
Before you show your obscuring.
Uh, Sam.
I'll.
I'll I'll pop up the visa episode and we can set this.

Joel Gardner   11:08
Yep, so remember this, this kind of regular sculpture.
And now I'm gonna see a Zephyrus.

Jason Gibbs   11:14
Let's see if.
Except maybe the best focus, but I think you can see.

Joel Gardner   11:19
It's.

Jason Gibbs   11:22
That you can see all the little individual punctures on the side at the music center here.
So it's relatively smooth with much more distinctly punk tape than your typical actually blossom.
And the other thing that you can see that you might be able to see here as well, which is also shared by the traffic steps that the Gina is relatively wide, it's kind of big, blocky heads sort of discipline that that's it even more obvious in the in the in the larger individuals.
But yeah, that is.
Yeah.
So the first is one of the few that has kind of a relatively distinct functions on the Mysterium and very smooth, but with the polling.

Joel Gardner   11:56
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   12:10
But not dissimilar to obscure.

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Jason Gibbs   12:23
I think you're muted, Sam.

Droege, Sam   12:30
Yeah.
So I thought it'd be interesting to talk habitat for Zephyrus.
So I see them, but I've kind of scattered here and there and sometimes I have this impression of them being on Opie and Sandy cut banks and things along creeks and rivers.
But in the open I mean but I don't have anything more than that.
So what do you guys think of as separate habitat?

Jason Gibbs   13:00
Uh.

Joel Gardner   13:00
I've seen it a lot of different places.
Uh, like?
Yeah, definitely occurs in like those sandy areas, but uh.
I have seen it like in like the Logan UT area like kind of let the mother mountainous area.
There's next five I've seen like a pretty long series of Zephyrus from there.

Droege, Sam   13:25
Uh-huh.

Joel Gardner   13:31
Uh, then it's it's super common out in Washington, actually.

Jason Gibbs   13:37
I I I seen it nesting in like the edge of sidewalks in downtown Toronto, so it's kind of.

Joel Gardner   13:37
Have.

Jason Gibbs   13:46
And that can be.

Droege, Sam   13:48
Maybe it should be the city be of Toronto.

Joel Gardner   13:48
Yeah, probably, yeah.

Jason Gibbs   13:51
As I could possibly in the resents but.

Droege, Sam   13:53
Oh, OK.

Joel Gardner   13:56
Probably a very generalist to be, which is probably a lot to do with why it's possible to rear in the lab and easier to study.

Droege, Sam   13:56
There.
Umm, should I?
I'll flip to obscure them.

Jason Gibbs   14:10
Sure.

Droege, Sam   14:11
Yeah, which I think of as as liking Woods, but not necessarily sort of like Woods Edge into the woods, but also occurs in fields too.
But there seems to be some association with Woodlands.
Umm.
Let's see here.
OK.
Can you see that?

Jason Gibbs   14:34
Yep.

Droege, Sam   14:35
OK.
And I think I'll just point.
Which is in Jason's key.
Key so I'm actually I'm just gonna turn it over to you, Jason.
It's your key, man.

Jason Gibbs   14:51
Well, one thing about obscure him is that the puncture density kind of laterally lateral head of the perhaps at the lines is relatively sparse.
So when you look at, yeah, so you look at between the tenant and the perhaps and lines, there's pretty wide gaps.
It also has a relatively smooth music at the sternum so that you can simply don't see all these, you know, wrinkles and just kind of see the individuals punctures.
And I know if you can move it up a little bit, but usually the the proper podium is not very closely sculpture.
There's it's usually a little bit weeks relations, bit of a rounded edge, but.
Not evident in that specimen.

Droege, Sam   15:40
Yeah.
I don't.

Jason Gibbs   15:42
Yeah.

Droege, Sam   15:43
I don't notice that in the the ones but, but it might be.
I mean, there's looks like the central striations aren't aren't reaching the rim, which is a our I was talking about that in our correspondence after the class, which was a lot of times.

Jason Gibbs   15:54
Yeah.

Droege, Sam   16:01
It's a little bit ambiguous, you know?
Like how far do striations go in terms of a quantitative thing?
Because there's variation.
So uh, keep that in mind when using keys of any kind, that there's pluses that things are plus and minus and you may not quite realize that sometimes.
So you can be conservative and I think we can see that action aerial fan back there through the wing, but I could move it.
But you can, I think, get the hint that it's got a I think it's complete, right?
Or is it nearly complete?

Jason Gibbs   16:42
And should be open.
I think it's it's it's.
This is part of the Beaver Dam mess, so it's actually really, it's actually a really distinctive be, but if you DNA barcoded, it does not by recall this correctly, it does not.

Droege, Sam   16:47
Ah.
OK.
Yeah.
Well, the wings hiding it.

Jason Gibbs   16:57
To which result?

Droege, Sam   16:58
But you're right, it looks like the the central part doesn't have.
It's just a a relatively dense on the sides and you know approaches the center, but it looks like you're right.
It is absent and I'll flip to the side if we want to take a look quick look there.
I think there might be.

Joel Gardner   17:17
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   17:17
And it's not very hairy bee.
It doesn't have very like the admin, is not very hairy in schooling.

Joel Gardner   17:25
So so Zephyrus does have a complete fan, so that that might be what you were thinking of.

Droege, Sam   17:31
Ohh OK.
But they both present as very shiny bees sometimes.

Jason Gibbs   17:45
If you if you remember that like I was gonna say the separate.

Droege, Sam   17:45
Also, yeah, maybe talk about.

Jason Gibbs   17:51
Sorry, I just.

Droege, Sam   17:52
Go ahead. I'm.

Jason Gibbs   17:52
I was gonna say I was just gonna say, if you remember the zephyrs that had very distinct basolateral patches on T2, where in the obscure and doesn't really they're they're relatively bald, yeah.

Droege, Sam   17:58
Umm.
Yeah.
Overall it's a do it can be called almost absent, although you can see a little bit of hair there that are oppressed things, but it is mostly lacking hairs.

Joel Gardner   18:10
It's here.

Droege, Sam   18:16
I'm not sure how this darn leg is in the way here and the other side is glued, but umm, we may not see well the UM proposed Yum and the pitting.
You can kind of with imagination.
You can see some of the pitting there.
I'm gonna flip it more onto its back and see if we can sneak a look in that way.
Whatever fancy plasticine, plasticine clay.
There it is.
Now we might.
We might have better.
It certainly will be a better look, but not as complete here.
So yeah, like Jason said, there are little micro.
Umm.
Patterns of little scribed areas, but you can see the pits and it's relatively shiny and relatively smooth, particularly compared to other other specimens.
Umm.
Anything else to talk about with that one?

Jason Gibbs   19:37
It's face would not be as square as a Zephyrus.

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Jason Gibbs   19:41
They would have a more typical kind of dial into space.
So.

Droege, Sam   19:47
Is anything to really write home about in terms of face?
And I have a handy visum, but do you have anything else you want to look at next?
Or do you have something on deck?

Jason Gibbs   20:05
I do have something on deck which I I thought I might show just cause it's if I can find like teams or so.

Droege, Sam   20:10
OK.

Jason Gibbs   20:13
This is a poorly understood be I think.
During my my teams on this computer is found stroke, he says.
This is the last year blossom a Bankai which.

Droege, Sam   20:35
Oh my God.
That's gonna be interesting to hear.

Jason Gibbs   20:37
The this is the the true Ivanka, I would say umm, so this is it's got it's not some sculpturing on the podium but it's very unique.
Umm, there's one kind of media line that kind of expensive bit further, but it's kind of fairly smooth, it's got it looks a lot like obscurum in that it's kind of a not very hairy bee but it has denser punctures, ladder add of the.
Fractional mind, but this this is kind of a really weird because it it's the type.
Locality is kind of like southern Appalachians area and that's where this is from and this is like the this has the classic appearance of that all Bankai, all the type, but you see a lot of things that kind of creep up in further north that pee out as a Buckeye and have more or less the same characters as a bank eye.
But it is don't look and I'm not really sure what's going on like, but this is.

Droege, Sam   21:41
What about the differences with Subview dotum, though?
That's the one that I struggle with, lower than obscure him.

Jason Gibbs   21:49
Yes.
So is it typical viewer down in groups that open fan?
Sort of.
See usually the subgear data have a little bit variation, but usually coarser sculpturing on the podium.

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Droege, Sam   22:03
Mm-hmm.

Jason Gibbs   22:04
Try to show in this quickly.

Droege, Sam   22:08
I'm not.
Is that in your keys?
Cause I'm not sure that I certainly not something I've used.
It's been mostly looking at T2 where you talk about.
I think that's a the couplet is a bonki versus sub veritatem in the key and I've struggled because it's like more or less the top bidding on the base of T2.

Jason Gibbs   22:19
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Or.
It's it's.
This is a bank eyes face.
You know.
So it's it's a little bit more.
Or.
It's a little bit more stretched out than your typical.
And so you're adding, you know, type this through for choosing a little farther.
Umm, it is.
You want to just stopped?
That kind of goes on with trying to identify these and it is tricky.
Umm.

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Jason Gibbs   23:26
And it's a little unclear whether the northern populations that sort of get lumped into a Bankai or the same as the one that occurs down in Appalachians, they do have sort of a different vibe.

Droege, Sam   23:34
Midnight.

Jason Gibbs   23:41
But it.

Droege, Sam   23:42
It would be nice to have a whole series of those vibe pictures because you know, I really struggle with the subview item abanti split in a lot of times.
I'm like these are maybe even the same thing, just slightly different variations that I'm, you know, making up a story about in terms of pinning on T2.

Jason Gibbs   24:06
Yeah.
And I I would say your supplier dynamic, the, the, the face is gonna be shorter.
The Clipeus is not gonna stick out nearly as much.

Droege, Sam   24:14
Uh-huh.

Jason Gibbs   24:15
And.
Yeah.
I mean, something is itself a problem in that it that the type of stuff you're down is like Northern Saskatchewan.
So it's pretty unlikely that this stuff that you would get down in like the sensual coastal areas, it's the same idea actually barcode differently.
So that is probably actually a cryptics semi cryptic species within subgroup atom that's occurs in the east. Uh.

Droege, Sam   24:40
Umm.

Jason Gibbs   24:46
So still work to be done.

Droege, Sam   24:47
Yeah, we see.
We see severe datum or whatever we're calling Savior datam regularly, but associated strongly with forests.

Jason Gibbs   24:53
Yeah.

Droege, Sam   24:59
So when we're doing forest interior, vernal spring, herbaceous pan trapping or netting, we get them almost everywhere.

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Droege, Sam   25:08
And then some, you know, will split to abanti because they have sparse pitting and others are dense pitting.
And we say those have to be subverted autumn.
But you're saying, does that make sense?
So it may be some undescribed thing, but would that fit?
Do you think subviral datums pattern which is a forest bee pattern?

Jason Gibbs   25:33
Yeah.
Yeah, the subviewer datum, the subview item that we would get in that I used to see in Michigan as there.
But I actually found its nest in rotting logs.
So he was very much a but a wood associated.

Droege, Sam   25:44
OK.

Jason Gibbs   25:47
So I we think that's what that does.
So the the typical blondheim thing, which is another species that kind of falls into this general mix, also nests in wood, and it's possible that a bankai does, but no I I'm I don't know of anyone who's definitively found this is a weird dream.

Droege, Sam   25:54
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Right.

Jason Gibbs   26:06
Uh.
So if you're, if you're down in the southern Appalachians, in North Carolina, kind of area.
Pull.
Pull bark off and he fall in logs because you find and collect the dialysis that you see with the.

Droege, Sam   26:22
Right.
It's interesting that while the southern Appalachians have a lot of endemic vertebrates, so think of salamanders or just all kinds of crazy things going on.
I don't really know of any bees that are.
Endemic to the southern Appalachians, they're all extensions of northern populations.
I mean, some things are more common, you know, punctatus for example, but I don't know.
Have you have documented anything that really is just like, here's a signal it only sits down there and the rates Smoky Mountains.

Jason Gibbs   27:03
In the Appalachians, I can't think of it, and and that's our bond.

Droege, Sam   27:05
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   27:07
Unless it's Ivanka.

Droege, Sam   27:09
Uh-huh.
I mean, that's interesting, right?
But I guess there are more bagel than salamanders last I looked.

Jason Gibbs   27:17
Yeah, I tend to like.
I tend to think of the.
In northern Abanca is being smaller, a little paler.
They're little bit more golden green.
Where's there's a banchi is very like kind of a darker the weed green, usually a little bit more robust in size, more like a versaterm size and.
Yeah.
So I don't know if it's.
We're working.

Droege, Sam   27:47
Yep.

Jason Gibbs   27:51
Umm.

Droege, Sam   27:51
All right, where do we want to go?
Here and did we see the proposal triangle and I just missed it?
I will.
Uh, someone wanted a a more definitive look at the proposal triangle on that at bonki.

Jason Gibbs   28:05
Ohh, you want to be a monkey?
OK. Yep.
You know that.

Droege, Sam   28:11
And while we're talking?
David asked.
Is the color blue, green gold have much diagnostic value within dialect dialect list.

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Jason Gibbs   28:23
Ah.

Joel Gardner   28:23
I not usually they tend to be pretty variable within species.

Droege, Sam   28:31
A little bit depends on the species group, so that core group that most fall into from you know like Baroda, Tums and things like that, they can dial green or they can dial blue.
My other things like veraci, you know, you do get some things like Jirachi and pilosum and things where you get a strong signal of the brassy yellows and then I would also say you move into Western and prairies and you're getting some bright, some pretty bright Blues in oceanic comment, things too.

Jason Gibbs   29:01
At.

Droege, Sam   29:10
So it's it's not definitive, but over time, you know you can dollars, you can be useful is this David Kappert, the who's creating all those problems on be monetary with his color questions after God.

Joel Gardner   29:26
Yeah, that is from deliver cat.

David Cappaert (Guest)   29:27
That makes them.

Droege, Sam   29:28
Hey, through my friend out of the bus.

Joel Gardner   29:31
Yeah. So.

Jason Gibbs   29:31
Yes.
So I I would say like you wouldn't like if you if you thought like I've caught a Zephyrus and this other Zephyrus is a different color.
I have found a new species that would be probably wrong, but like if you you know if you find the last few blossoms ruling and the last year Blossom Niagara variety at the same location, you'll immediately be able to tell them apart by code time in a joke.

Droege, Sam   29:41
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good point.

Jason Gibbs   29:52
So it's, you know, they're superficially similar.
It's really obvious.
Uh, but people?
Every once in a while, people will find a dialect is.
That's completely black, and it's just so you gotta be cautious, but this is this is.

Joel Gardner   30:04
Yes.
And I think Sam put it nicely when he said that it can be useful, but it's not definitive.
So it's it's not something you don't wanna rely.
You can use color, but you don't want to rely on it alone in most cases because you can get weird variation or a lot of times, especially with like pan traps bees, you can get discoloration.

Droege, Sam   30:29
Right.
You get an oily Sheen sometimes on those bees that it's been in detergent.

Jason Gibbs   30:37
So this is the uh Barchi back slightly different angle.

Droege, Sam   30:40
Umm.

Jason Gibbs   30:43
But maybe that that helps, but you you have to sort of long, you know, longer sort of crenulate kind of run down the middle and some kind of fine wrinkles and a little bit of fine microstructure, but not not like the ghosts on.
That was a lot of when the posterior half and and smooth that's.

Droege, Sam   31:09
So is that central?

Jason Gibbs   31:09
That's why it gives him. Yep.

Droege, Sam   31:11
Is that central uh raised line Carina Stration.
Whatever you want to call it is that pretty indicative for that group?

Jason Gibbs   31:19
No, I mean that's fairly fairly typical.
I think the other the other one that you get more northern that looks kind of similar to that, it would be plain atom, but it's got some more hair going on on the the abdomen, a bunker is another one.

Droege, Sam   31:25
OK.
Great. Another.
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   31:37
He's fairly bald.
Bees kind of like obscured.

Droege, Sam   31:41
Yeah, a tricky thing about Plantarum is I believe in your key there's it's sort of lumped into the has no to lit, only a little bit of hair, but it does have a little bit of hair and umm, you know that's sort of a a more key separation thing, but it's a little bit tricky because a lot of times you're looking for something that doesn't have any hair.
And like, what's a little bit, you know, because they also that amount of hair also varies.
So I've been, umm, you know, maybe spent too much time looking at hair.
Sometimes offer planada planada because it we're at the southern edge of its range, so I keep trying to make planada arms and sometimes, and I think there are a few down here, but not very many.

Jason Gibbs   32:35
Yeah.
So it's not I I didn't change the angle, so it's not great.
But you know this has got a little bits of hair kind of phaser laterally on TTT.
Three.
But some of those market obscure depending on how that happened, it's telescoped and maybe some scattered hairs on teeth 4, but relatively bald.
Is.

Joel Gardner   32:56
Yeah.
And we probably don't wanna really get into how to recognize Planada M and in this class today, because that that's severed atom group and that that's like a if you're out in Group is probably like a multi day class on its own.

Jason Gibbs   33:03
Actually.

Droege, Sam   33:12
Right, right.

Jason Gibbs   33:12
Yeah.

Droege, Sam   33:13
OK, I said nothing.

Jason Gibbs   33:15
Yes.

Droege, Sam   33:18
What would you call this group if we wanted to lump them together?

Jason Gibbs   33:23
So zipper.

Joel Gardner   33:24
Zephyrus or a Bankai?

Droege, Sam   33:29
That's what we're working on today.
So doctor seems like a separate issue, but we've moved into another group of friends.

Jason Gibbs   33:36
Yeah.
So I think we're kind of talking about things that some of the things that have kind of smoother for podia that I could be confused, but Zephyrus is kind of unrelated to a banchi and obscure abanca and obscure really feared item.
It's, but they're a little bit more obvious.

Joel Gardner   33:52
Yeah.
Yeah, Zephyrus is kind of just like it's own thing.
It's not part of a group.
And there's a few other bees that kind of look similar, which is what we're looking at, but they're not actually related phylogenetically.

Droege, Sam   34:02
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
Andrew is confirming today has been a paraphyletic uh assortment.
Is it?

Joel Gardner   34:22
Or like polyphyletic, yeah.

Jason Gibbs   34:26
OK.
You know, with what?

Droege, Sam   34:35
Not.

Jason Gibbs   34:36
What other people had?
But this is another one that I I see that sometimes could be easily mistaken for a Zephyrus, and this is a Gotham and Gotham.

Joel Gardner   34:42
Ohh is this a Gotham?

Droege, Sam   34:46
Mm-hmm.

Jason Gibbs   34:47
Gotham is self seems to be an emerging problem and there maybe there's more than one government.
But it can have a relatively long for podium and this sculpturing sometimes is variable and doesn't go all the way to the margin.
So you can get this kind of smoothish kind of appearance.
Umm, in, you know, kind of basolateral patches on T2, which we just don't see how to focus there and the head is the head is not as quadratic kind of square as a zephyrus worth the thicker Gina.

Joel Gardner   35:14
Yeah.

Droege, Sam   35:18
Umm.

Jason Gibbs   35:24
But it's.
But you'd be you'd be forgiven if you didn't have reference material for mistake.
Feelings afterwards.

Droege, Sam   35:32
Yeah, that those T2 lateral patches are very triangular in.

Joel Gardner   35:35
To my.

Droege, Sam   35:38
I find them usually pretty pretty distinct and indicative, and then the economy real fan, which you have a picture there, you might want to talk about too for Gotham.

Jason Gibbs   35:48
Yes, this is where this is where things get a little bit complicated.
So they so there is this other species Lobisomem.
We're not talking about today.
That has a very narrow opening on the the.
Team one carfin.
And then there's another species, smile, a scene.
It's a synonym of that which has kind of a closed fan, but looks very superficially similar to this month.
And Gotham is one that I kind of pulled out, which had more of an open fan.
It's slightly different appearance than either than the other two, and it bar and bar sort of issue.
That's sort of arising is that.
Smile assinie lovisa moment.
Gotham denied Barcoded very distinctly stint clusters, but there are some movies seems to be 1/3 cluster a fourth world, maybe fourth cluster, another cluster.
That's kind of close to smile acne, but you know, if you gave it to me, I'd probably call you was a golf.
So it's kind of getting a bit tricky, you know, but yeah.

Droege, Sam   36:52
I yeah, I I find that the Gotham opening on the economy real fan is actually quite small.

Joel Gardner   36:55
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   37:00
He so this is where I'm. Yeah.

Droege, Sam   37:01
So and it looks like it looks like it is there too.

Jason Gibbs   37:06
Yes.
And so the concern is that this might be the one that's kind of I have to go back and look at a bunch of material and some of the material I don't have here to figure out which ones are barcoding as which.

Droege, Sam   37:17
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   37:19
But actually, Eli Wyman, who mentioned he had like he had some specimens they collected and they kind of extracted some the Co one and from those specimens and they're in that sort of Mistry third kind of group, you're smile city of and so it's possible that it's mixes.

Droege, Sam   37:20
Yep.

Jason Gibbs   37:38
Yeah, and it's possible to type series of Gotham is mixed as well, so I have to go back and check everything to be sure.

Droege, Sam   37:42
Uh, yeah.
Yeah, this match is the the local ones here, and I think I've mentioned before, we only see it in the spring in woods and then it goes away.
So it's not out throughout the year, which is super unusual, only Quebec dancing also does that.

Jason Gibbs   38:01
Yeah. So.

Droege, Sam   38:03
Umm, we have a question to please go deeper and clear.
Can can we see the fan more clearly?

Jason Gibbs   38:11
I can try to make it cleaner.

Droege, Sam   38:16
I do have a Levison montec if we want to go that direction.

Joel Gardner   38:16
Thank.

Jason Gibbs   38:19
That's it.

Joel Gardner   38:21
Yeah, I'm.
I'm glad Jason showed Gotham though, because I I said that leaves Simon was kind of similar to Zephyrus, but actually Gotham is definitely more similar to Zephyrus than what this email is.

Jason Gibbs   38:27
Ooh.
So this.

Joel Gardner   38:36
Is.

Jason Gibbs   38:39
This band is very.
Close to being closed and this might be the Smile city close proximity, something that's decisions without barcode it.

Droege, Sam   38:51
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   38:51
I have to check which ones are barcoded.
This is actually one that I collected in from a nest in August in Michigan.

Droege, Sam   38:53
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   39:02
So we saw, we saw them very early.

Droege, Sam   39:02
Hi.

Jason Gibbs   39:04
I've seen dolphin very early in the spring and the way that you talk about sand or they're in the the the fallen tree kind of balls and like April, but this is a a nest, a well established nest that I found.

Droege, Sam   39:07
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   39:17
It's just kind of on the side of the trail similar some areas, but it was.

Droege, Sam   39:20
Yeah.
Not in a not in a log or stump or.

Jason Gibbs   39:25
8 You get might have been you.
I'm going back to 10 years to remember where I business was. Umm.

Droege, Sam   39:32
Yeah, alright.
Was it.
Was it wooded or just a trip?

Jason Gibbs   39:36
Yeah, it it was at this.
It was in a nature preserve in Lansing, MI.

Droege, Sam   39:39
Uh.

Jason Gibbs   39:40
So it's kind of a trail that kind of ran into the woods.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam   39:43
OK. Umm.

Jason Gibbs   39:45
Ohh next to a big open field.
But.
Anyways.
Well, have I don't know if I have other options.

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Jason Gibbs   40:04
Listen to this would be.
This would be a Gotham that barcodes to.
Like the traditional Bart would often played the cluster.
Yeah, they took it, but it has a fairly distinctive opening.
And the lighting will let you see that.
No, it's it Gotham.
I sort of traditionally considered it had a more open fan than all of this.

Droege, Sam   40:52
Yeah, we were.
We were talking about color and I think of Gotham as leaning towards a, a gold, maybe slightly brassy color on the thorax, and then on the on the proposed Yum, not the podium on the mazeppa sterna the sides.
It's got a fair amount of sculpturing and you know if you use your imagination, you could go either way as to whether it has pits or doesn't have pits.

Jason Gibbs   41:21
Yeah.
No, that's that's absolutely right.
So like I, I always thought of, I think the Gotham is having.
You can see some distinct pits in 2 minutes, where is in Smile City and Lovisone generally not, and they tend to be a a darker we kind of call her children functions wrong with them.

Droege, Sam   41:40
Yeah, we can pull up the Levisa mum too, which is sometimes problematic because it it's just a has traditionally been something, particularly when I was using Mitchell though of where I would often end up.

Joel Gardner   41:42
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   41:44
Sure.

Droege, Sam   41:53
Ohh, that must be lithium and.
And you distinguish Gotham and Levisa mum nicely about the pitting pattern, but it's still subtle.
So with Gotham, you do have some invading pitting into the the rim area or the the the suppressed or recessed or whatever rim, and in lithium is pretty much all this baby.
Our baby's bald, but they have no no pits on there, and also the the T2 pattern of white hairs.
And so we we can show that whenever you guys are interested, I've got got.

Jason Gibbs   42:35
Yeah, you have.
You have a go ahead.

Droege, Sam   42:38
Yeah, OK.

Joel Gardner   42:44
Yeah, Speaking of color, there are actually some good color characters for Gotham.
Uh Tayla of Gotham is kind of like a bright yellowy orange compared to lay this moment smell assignee.
Both have a a dark brown tegula and then the metasoma on Gotham actually has kind of faint metallic, like a faint metallic green Sheen to it.
A lot of the time, not always, but a lot of the time it has a paint metallic green machine, which is why it could be confused for Zephyrus.

Droege, Sam   43:28
And it's a surprisingly not uncommon bee.
Uh.
Down where we are particularly in these spring Woodlands situations, it's got a lot of shine going on here, but that's and it's a little bit dirty, but this is you know actually I think of as indicative very dark abdomen black and then umm, you know, but shiny and if it's clean specimen like that whole back back end is just really smooth.

Joel Gardner   43:36
Situations.

Droege, Sam   43:59
It's it looks really smooth looking with almost no hair.
And you can see this band.
So it has the white the triangles like Gotham, but then depending on how recessed the abdomen termites are, usually you can see a nice crisp, fairly white bright white band going all the way across on the top and then variable down below.
You guys every turn, right or just you two?
I mostly am looking at T2 on that one, but what are you guys?
You probably see more than I do.

Jason Gibbs   44:36
Yeah.
I mean, T2T3, we're talking about the rest areas.
Yeah, it's.

Droege, Sam   44:46
Will Basil, I think, did I say apical?

Jason Gibbs   44:46
Yeah, this is it.

Droege, Sam   44:48
I meant basil.
Like these bright, bright lines here are in.
You know, my book are good like indicator because there the the the triangles, but then there's usually a connector between them.

Joel Gardner   45:05
Yeah, that's that's decent.

Jason Gibbs   45:08
The.

Joel Gardner   45:10
Yeah, it really distinctive thing about like this amount that I look for is what you mentioned with the aid that called RAM.
This being bald as a baby, that's it.
Good way of putting it so like that that the whole ethical rim of of T2 and T3 there's there's no seedy and no punctures whatsoever.

Droege, Sam   45:35
This is mostly dirt, but you're seeing on the on the screen.

Joel Gardner   45:40
And there are not very many dialects that have a that have a bicycle.
Rims like that almost all.
Then we'll have some sort of faint punctures.
Or some sort of short, seedy and the visa mom.
Well, OK.
Rarely it can have like some very short, very sparse CD, but generally it's like pretty much just bald.

Droege, Sam   46:04
Umm, it's almost like melissodes.
You know, some of the melodies.
It also looks like that Apple rim, like that baldness, goes like halfway up the tergite.
Yeah, this this is roughly the depressed, the area they call it, so depressed area is also when I'm starting out like what is what does that mean the depressed and area and all these other gradualist names and things but.

Joel Gardner   46:26
Yeah, actually if if you look at that teach you, you see this kind of like a neat line of long seedy and that kind of on the edge that are kind of like hanging over that depressed rim that kind of it's the border of where the depressed rim is.

Droege, Sam   46:41
Oh, right here.

Joel Gardner   46:45
If you follow that line of Long CD.
So yeah, those CD are kind of long and they're kind of overlap the kind of hangover that he pressed rim, but there will be like nothing actually on the rim.

Droege, Sam   47:02
Yeah.
So we're calling all of this the rim.
You know, sometimes in our lingo, we might refer to this as the rim, but this, this is this depressed umm rim area where below that line that Joel was just talking about.
Umm.
Then there's pretty much nothing going on except in this case, dirt.

Jason Gibbs   47:25
Miss.

Droege, Sam   47:26
And here's the Akinari all fan area.
I don't know if it's gonna show here, but I can certainly bend it a little bit.
Umm, later.
But it's a pretty much complete it's just not showing up very well.

Joel Gardner   47:37
It's just.

Droege, Sam   47:38
In this lighting.
And I'll scoot it up.
So we can see the the edge of the proposed Yum too.
Oh, it looks like a monkey.
All right.
So you guys wanna talk about that?

Jason Gibbs   48:02
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Uh.
How to describe it?
I mean, it's kind of vaguely trapezoidal.
The kind of squared off of it at the posterior margin.
It's.
When you're looking at the I was going to say that the abdomen that with that really bear typical margins, another another relatively common species that looks similar in that respect is sands actually.
But it looks quite different and it doesn't have a fan at all.
Umm but yeah, I don't have it's.

Droege, Sam   48:37
You repeat that it got there.
Like what?
What species?

Jason Gibbs   48:42
Verse sands.

Droege, Sam   48:42
He was first hands.
Yeah.
Thank you.

Jason Gibbs   48:45
Sans.
So yeah, so the admins that we're saying surprisingly simulated.
But yeah, and they don't have much to say about.
You see what you get?
It's a listen.
So it's not super coarsely sculptured.
There's some little, you know, kind of posterior mealy that, OK, you can get kind of weak, but.
It does have a fairly kind of robust head.
It's kind of closer to going down, the Zephyrus spread.

Joel Gardner   49:28
Yeah, that's that's why I suggested that it could be a similar and confused as that for us because it does have kind of a similar head shape.

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Droege, Sam   49:39
It's and it's relatively big and often on the darker end of the blue green spectrum sometimes.

Jason Gibbs   49:50
Yeah, it.
And it also has ones where the there seems to be some casts going on here so that you know, sometimes there's big individuals in the basement where the head is even more kind of robust in the genome, gets a little bit wider.
Than others.

Droege, Sam   50:07
You know.
We're right.
Do we wanna look anymore on this one?
It's so the sides.
I don't know that we need to look at.
It would be similar to almost all the other dialects you know.
Slightly rough rugulose if you will, but nothing and distinctive enough other than noting that it is not distinctive.

Jason Gibbs   50:32
And this is really widespread B as well.
So this is this goes close to coast in Canada.

Droege, Sam   50:37
Right.
But mostly northern, so we almost never see this outside of Appalachia, down where we are.

Jason Gibbs   50:48
I didn't want to pop up this really quick that this is a Gotham metal, so most so superficially, very similar to love this so it was kind of just mixed in with minimum for a long time.
So and any southern records of of this amount would, you know, in the East would be suspect.
They haven't been examined over something. Umm.

Droege, Sam   51:10
Yeah, I certainly defied them.
As well as move a lot at the beginning.

Jason Gibbs   51:16
And I don't know if you can see it on your screen.
I tried to find a better angle that it couldn't quite get it to work, but honest in press area of T2 here you might be able to see it just as these kind of little white specs that there's punctures that kind of go across the apex.
A little fine.
Tiny little uh countries, and that's one of the ways you consider distinguish it from this it's it's more distinctly punctate, but you gotta get the lighting just right and it's really hard to do some statistic.
You gotta kind of rotated.
But similar in that has those little triangular patches of of cementum days of laterally and not the thin Bray that we were talking about last week are largely so absent, especially in the find theirs alone.
Then it gets anyway.

Droege, Sam   52:14
And I'll I'll point out inside wise that the lateral patches tend to be a more off white and even a little bit of burnt looking.

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Jason Gibbs   52:25
Yeah.
6.

Droege, Sam   52:28
And then they they never have a a connecting set of white hairs running across the base like you saw in LA Visum and la Visum often has that.

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Droege, Sam   52:42
But again, because it's so tight up against T1, if that's sucked in somehow, you can.
It may not be there.

Jason Gibbs   52:52
Yep.
Yeah, the visitor has a very nice contrast.
They're dark.
Is overhead garage doors all right?
You know how we're doing for time?

Droege, Sam   53:05
About 5 minutes.
Uh, maybe.
Are are there questions out there also you know?
So you can lead us into darker waters for next week or the subsequent sessions where we can get some of Joel and Jason's time and but you need to tell us if otherwise we will lead you into our own dark waters.

Jason Gibbs   53:32
Right.

Droege, Sam   53:33
So thank you.
For bringing up the Zephyrus.
Anybody else have favorites?
But they need help with.

Jason Gibbs   53:44
I just wanted to mention before we go that one nice thing about zephyrs males is they often have red happiness, not always that often.
If you see a male that has kind of a smooth rounded kind of edge to the podium and how large and kind of reddish.
Like these letters.

Droege, Sam   54:10
All right, Jason, because David's here, it doesn't look red to me.

Jason Gibbs   54:15
Yeah.

Joel Gardner   54:17
Yeah, that's more testaceous.

Jason Gibbs   54:23
I'm using Reddit.

Droege, Sam   54:24
Not, uh gracious.

Jason Gibbs   54:26
Perfect.

Droege, Sam   54:29
Are war possibly slightly piceus?

Joel Gardner   54:30
Thank you.
Yeah, it's, it's red enough that that I would.

Jason Gibbs   54:39
Others.

Droege, Sam   54:40
Shows out.

Joel Gardner   54:42
Uh.
Include that in the in the red tailed species.

Jason Gibbs   54:47
So if if you ever wanna understand how complicated the question of color is, just go to Wikipedia and type in shades of orange.
Then you realize how problematic it is.
So so things like things like focus, uh, the color ochre, these all have like official definitions.

Droege, Sam   54:58
Hmm.

Jason Gibbs   55:06
Like you can type in the official red green blue combinations to get exactly sold.
This umm, but it's a subjective issue.
You know, ochrous ochraceous just means the color of ochre, but ochre is not comes in multiple colors, but there.
There is an official color ochre.
Umm, just kind of just kind of orangy brownish yellow kind of shade.
Umm yeah.

Droege, Sam   55:33
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   55:34
I mean, even this, I mean there there's you have.
You're going from front of the turbo to the back of the cargo, a spectrum of colors, not all one.

Joel Gardner   55:39
It turned out to.

Jason Gibbs   55:44
It's not monochromatic.
So you have to be really cautious and with all these sorts of scriptures, you probably historically people weren't using them all consistently amongst each other or even within their own sort of useless.

Droege, Sam   55:59
Right.

Jason Gibbs   56:02
So is it is tricky you use English language if you can, I just.
Yes.

Droege, Sam   56:12
Umm.
Maybe you can give us some help with this.
The problem with using a second this key by a newbie is getting stuck on one couplet and you can't move on.
So it's good to learn other characteristics that can help go past that one couple with any other recommendations on that kind of situation.

Joel Gardner   56:32
If if you get stuck on a couplet, a good piece of advice is try going both ways and see what you end up at, and then see which one makes more sense.

Droege, Sam   56:40
Thank you.

Joel Gardner   56:44
So if you're stuck on a couplet, go one way and then you might get you a couplet that like, just doesn't make any sense.

Droege, Sam   56:44
Yeah.

Joel Gardner   56:50
Like the characters don't match at all, and then you try going the other way and you can find out, like, uh, this seems reasonable.
So that can often help you pass some of those tricky ones that are harder to interpret.

Jason Gibbs   57:00
Is.

Droege, Sam   57:07
It's definitely a CSI situation, so often you're going to look at multiple lines of evidence.

Jason Gibbs   57:07
Yeah.

Droege, Sam   57:14
You're gonna read maybe of a something.
You're stuck on.
Read a description you would want if you had had access to it.
Other people's identified material and and just do a direct comparison, that sort of the gold standard really at the end.
And but the the the key in all these things is don't guess right.
If you guess, then you know you've lost because you're.
If you take a branch or in discover life, you say, well, this is the closest was what I think and your species disappears off that branch or that list.
You don't get it back.
So you wanna be super conservative?
Follow multiple branches if you're not sure, do your CSI thing look at ranges and yeah, and don't think that you just stepped through a key to get the ID.
You always have to be cautious and when starting at minimum you know kind of inspect pictures and the literature to see like, yeah.
Oh, you know what the size of my bee is?
A lot smaller when than the range that's shown in the description.
So on the species page on discover life, a lot of those are there.
That should be big red flag, that kind of stuff.

Jason Gibbs   58:39
Yep.
I don't know what that have anything to add to any of that.
That's all.

Droege, Sam   58:49
One must suffer when identifying bees for years.

Jason Gibbs   58:53
And first, yeah, I mean one thing and like, you know, people who become good at identifying these.
The the John Asher is in the world.
Mean they they spent a lot of time with good reference material and it's it someone like John is at Cornell, which is gonna be collection and it's American Museum of Natural History, which has a really good collection.
And so we had, you know, I worked with once Packer and then I I borrowed.
I got all the dialects from everywhere, so I had all the holotypes, so I had like an amazing the best dialect disks and optic collection possible.
When I was doing my PhD, that's the only way really really get good at this stuff so.
You don't have access to that strong, you know or, you know, get.
Sometimes you can get us an optic set from Sam or me.
If you give us some specimens, we'll look at them, but they don't accept that.

Droege, Sam   59:59
Yep, in general, need more museums and more places for more people to learn their bees.

Joel Gardner   1:00:09
Another kind of fun endeavor.
Not a large chunk of the dialectics types are in the Smithsonian, and the Smithsonian actually has almost all of them digitized.
So you can go on the the this masonian website and go to their collection database and you can look up images of their types and not all the dialects are there.
They're kind of scattered around, but this masonian has a nice chunk of them.

Droege, Sam   1:00:39
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs   1:00:42
That's that's that's increasing.
So I I think the California Academy of Sciences is a lot of their types digitized.
So if you're in the W 2nd, you can check things like that.
It's not really for me.

Droege, Sam   1:00:59
All right.
Claire, did you have something?
You were saying OHS, responding to I when I am wondering, like when I've gone down a couple of different paths as you've seen, I use a different color debt label and when Sam checks them, I'm then able to refer back and study those specific fees rather than having like a running list of weird notes.

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Droege, Sam   1:01:22
So that might be useful if you're not able to, do you know, check your bees right away.
OK, how about and raise hand has been raised and that's just me somehow.
OK.
No, never mind.
OK, send send suggestions to Claire.
Or will or will never do this again, how about that?

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Droege, Sam   1:01:54
Yeah, we need to participation.
Alright.

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Droege, Sam   1:01:57
Well, thank you everybody.
I'm gonna stop there 40 now.
Thanks, Claire.
Thanks Joel.
Thanks Jason as usual.

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Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription