102_Learn to ID bees_Hitchensi group_Jason Gibbs_Nov 1 2023

November 1, 2023, 5:11PM

50m 10s

Droege, Sam 0:05
Yeah.
No, I think that's a really great evidence of how committed and valuable these classes are, and I remain astonished that we have a full classroom of people, right.
And we have we have two of our regulars here in the lab from University of Georgia or South Georgia.
You're walking by right now, and so it's nice to have our audience in place.
That's wonderful.
So today, like Clippy, is through and continue to.
Please let us know what you want to work on next and you can tastic people please take it away.
I Jason, you want me to bring up the spec?
The Hitchens see Ethan Arial fan or fan or, but just let me know when.

Jason Gibbs 0:55
Uh, well, then I I will.
I'm just gonna show the face first.
Perhaps just so we're all on the same page, I think people have, umm, caught on to this character.

Droege, Sam 1:01
OK. Yep.

Jason Gibbs 1:10
Uh, in the in the 2010 and 2011 papers?
I kind of wrote this character and it's slightly different way because I think people didn't understand what I was talking about in 2010.
Umm, but basically there's this kind of squared off apex of the clypeus, so there is a you know the the clypeus has is kind of like in edge and sometimes you get these sort of like I think Joel called them apical lateral ventricles or something and his papers.
But in other species like the, you know, versaterm and adamantium that we covered last time, the clypeus kinda comes down.
I think it kind of like a trapezoid.
You know, it kind of comes down in an angle and then and then there's the flattening events.
But there's a distinctly kind of squared off aspect to this pieces that we're talking about today.
And I think once you see it, it makes sense.
It's hard to describe.

Droege, Sam 2:15
To Jason, I was gonna ask so uh, can you talk a little bit about the width of width of that flat area of the edge versus the overall width of the clipeus?

Jason Gibbs 2:15
Has anyone has anyone yeah.

Droege, Sam 2:32
Is that a thing?
Would it actually be a measurement too?
Is that out a wider spot or is it simply the squared off nature of it?

Jason Gibbs 2:42
You know.
And sorry man, maybe it's maybe it is.
I I don't think of it normally as a measurement.
It's not something normally measure rather than with my eyes.
Umm.
But you know, whenever whenever I see this, you know, quite yes.
It's it's I I guess because I never really worried about it too much.

Droege, Sam 3:03
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 3:03
You know, I see it and I know it exactly what it is.
Yeah, some.
Yeah, maybe other species.
You mentioned Illinois, which has a really weirdly kind of squared off wide kind of colloquial, and that one is so distinct in other ways that and if you think about it, but he also has a really wide like this, but in other.

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Droege, Sam 3:22
You don't need it, yeah.
And would you always, would you, sorry, would you always say that those teeth, those denticulate are are two teeth at the lateral sides are always there?
Is that a?
So I know people really struggle with this.
You know, in terms of getting it the first time, you know, would those are those teeth very definitive?

Jason Gibbs 3:44
They don't really. Yeah.
They don't really protrude out like they're not kind of coming out far.
I don't think you can.
Sort of.
See here they they just kind of.
It's just gonna come.
You know, there's it's gonna coming down from the angle and then you just get this kind of vaguely rectangular shape with these sort of 90 degree.
Angles.

Droege, Sam 4:06
Yeah. OK.

Jason Gibbs 4:09
You know, there's a little bump you might see here.
That's the labor room below and you know you have these sort of bristles that kind of emerge just before the apex.
So yeah, it's just, it's just this kind of square appearance.

Droege, Sam 4:20
Business had chance that yeah, this is his chance.
He right?

Jason Gibbs 4:25
Uh, what?
I'm showing actually should be a Weems eye.

Droege, Sam 4:29
OK. OK.
Thank you.

Jason Gibbs 4:31
Umm.
And you know, in other respects, you know, they seem very much like the kind of versaterm admin random type.
Ohh they the head is not unusually shaped, not too long.
It's not too wide.
The puncture density on the sputum is dense, laterally sparse medially.
They're not coarsely sculptured, particularly.
No unusual absence or presence of punctures, of not very hairy, but with some hairs. Umm.

Droege, Sam 5:05
Talk about T2.

Jason Gibbs 5:08
To eat T2 so yeah.
So if you, you know, usually I I I point people towards the kind of the apical impressed area of T2 to look for.
Punctures there in in Versaterm and adding random and the species we covered last week.
They're very densely punctate across that whole surface in this group, you might see some punctures, but they're not.
They're not.
It's not.
It's not definitively absent where you're like, oh, there's no punctures at all.
Uh, But they're also not densely, mostly so.
They're kind of there's a few functions there, but nothing to write.

Droege, Sam 5:47
Right.

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Droege, Sam 5:48
So that that splits it pretty handily, because this is often a common group along with the the evil trigeminal him, a apex there and not having as dense pitting going all the way to the rim is a pretty good indicator that you should look at the clipeus.

Jason Gibbs 6:08
Yeah.
And one thing about these ones is they're they're kind of a dull thing.
So this this skew Dome has quite a bit of microscope.
Sure.
Between the punctures, they're not smooth and shiny, and if you look at we'll we'll see T1 in a second.
But if when you look at the first turgon there's, there's a lot of that little finger print kind of impression of microculture, but you don't see in a lot of the the you don't see an admin random a lot of those other spaces, hair admiring them does kind of have something similar, but it doesn't, but it has a differently shaped clypeus and some other things going on.

Droege, Sam 6:41
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 6:46
But Carrie Miranda will be one.
You have to watch out for keeping these up, but maybe maybe now is a good time to show the fan.

Droege, Sam 6:55
Yep.
So when you talk about that, there's tessellations on T1A place that I look for whimsy and achensee is right around the fan area, which, umm, I tend to think of as whimsy as not having much in the way of any tessellations.

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Droege, Sam 7:15
And Hitchens, I having some I don't know if you agree with that or not, because it's always been, as you will point out, a struggle sometimes to figure out whether I've got a weak agency or a strong whimsy.

Jason Gibbs 7:31
Yeah.
I think it's been doubt that's a winsy.
Yeah, if you wanna show your kitchens.

Droege, Sam 7:39
OK.

Jason Gibbs 7:42
Eggs. Ohh.

Droege, Sam 7:42
OK.

Jason Gibbs 7:46
I think I got a weaves eye ready to go.

Droege, Sam 7:52
All right.
There we go.
So here's the thorax abdomen.
And here's this fan.
I'll change the focus a little bit so you can see that the fan is running all the way across classically in that one.
Two.
And Jason, you have a whimsy on deck, right?

Jason Gibbs 8:16
Yes.

Droege, Sam 8:17
Be there right?
This is his chance.

Jason Gibbs 8:19
Work.
Yeah.
So it.

Droege, Sam 8:22
How do you pronounce it?

Jason Gibbs 8:24
Ohh I I'm inconsistent.
You could say Hitchens eye Hitchens.
See spending one night?
You wanna latinize the English and so.

Droege, Sam 8:34
Ah.

Jason Gibbs 8:37
And I'm not picky about those things.
Ohm.
Yes.
So that's kind of what you wanna see.
So if you see a nice really completely enclosed fan, you can feel pretty, pretty confident that you have kitchens.
So or so.
The name here is a little complicated, cause Mitchell described the species as atlanticus, so if you look at the 1960 book, it's atlanticus and that's what it will appear in and other sort of publications up to a point, though no one ever identified this.
No.
Then I decide I it would.
That's a a homonym with a a European species.
So I called it mitchelli in my 2010 paper, but that actually unbeknownst to me, was a synonym of an Australian species.
And so that's why it's it's called kitchens.
I know.
So it was a a new replacement name for replacement.
OK.
Umm, so yeah.
Hopefully that makes the the clothes is clear the.
And other species like adding random and param are very open, so you don't have to worry about those.
He try to share, so this is a this is a Weems eye and it is a Weems eye that has been DNA barcoded and I'll get back to that.

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Jason Gibbs 9:58
Umm, I don't know how well you guys can see.
Umm, it's got a it's open.
It's gonna narrow opening.
It's not very wide opening.
Uh, but there is a distinct space in the midline between the punctures.
I don't think my camera is got good enough resolution to see what's going on with the service goes through.

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Droege, Sam 10:22
Umm, OK, I think we need a pause a second.
I have several messages that are saying that they can't see any of the specimens and also seeing people that can't.

Hesler, Louis - REE-ARS joined the meeting

Jason Gibbs 10:30
No.

Droege, Sam 10:31
So team had the same problem.
He left and rejoined.
And then it worked.
That is what I was gonna suggest.
So I just wanna make announcement.

Jason Gibbs 10:36
Yes.

Droege, Sam 10:37
Anybody who's having that problem appears that if you log out real quick, log back in, and let's see if that works.

Jason Gibbs 10:45
Yeah.
Yeah, I had.

Droege, Sam 10:46
There's a bear.

Jason Gibbs 10:46
I hadn't missed.

Droege, Sam 10:47
It's no check out the minutes you miss.
Ohh soon Jason.
Do you notice that the right around the fan area that in Wimsey is almost tessellation free?
Because that's sort of my, you know, an indicator, I'd say I'm not.
It's hard because a lot of that's times, it's goopy.
A lot of times you can't see well, blah blah blah, but it's like if I'm if I'm trying to divine whether I'm looking at a Hitchens I or a whimsy.

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Droege, Sam 11:20
A lot of times I'm.

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Droege, Sam 11:22
I'm like, OK, what kind of tessellation is going on down?
But I may be just making up stories.

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Jason Gibbs 11:30
I mean, it's hard to say.

Droege, Sam 11:31
What?

Jason Gibbs 11:31
I mean I I I think there is maybe I was looking, I have made this undoable again.
And see the wing.
The margin I so I have been.
As toying around with the with these before the court that the class today and.

Droege, Sam 11:53
Uh.

Jason Gibbs 11:57
I maybe gave myself the impression that maybe Weems eye is a little bit less sculptured overall, but not in an easily described way.

Droege, Sam 12:05
And umm.

Jason Gibbs 12:08
So, like the surface sculpture in the in the museum is maybe it's completely structured, but it's maybe less sculptured, you know, so it's.
But I think there's a lot of inconsistencies.

Droege, Sam 12:22
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 12:22
I mean, I think I could make there's maybe a little bit of impression that you can kind of see there, but I don't think the lighting on this scope is good enough for me to tell on this specimen it that's a really narrow and I think.
Umm.
Really narrow opening on T1 and there was a period between, you know, when I left the you were at university, I was in Michigan State and I didn't have access to all the, you know, specimens for my dissertation.
I probably some of these may have leaked into the Hitchens igroup because I was probably like ohh it's it was probably just a hair missing and your couple hairs missing.
Ohh, but now I think actually probably user OK side.
Umm yeah.

Droege, Sam 13:08
So do you.
So I was gonna say, do you see habitat differences?
I tend to see Weems eye in more weirdly urban and suburban. Umm.
Kind of places.
And Hitchens I it, which is much more common down here in in less so.
But a lot of times they both can Co occur.

Jason Gibbs 13:37
Umm yeah, I'm less certain of that just because.
Umm, I'm probably call.
You know, I'm not as collecting them as much as you are directly.
Usually just I may be dealing with your specimens and they're, you know, I have it GPS coordinates, but I don't have.

Droege, Sam 13:52
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 13:57
You know, not necessarily looking at the individual sites will be interesting though.

Droege, Sam 14:01
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 14:02
But is that they're both widespread, you know, they're both all the way up to the east.
They both get up into Southern Ontario kind of area.
Umm, I don't.
We don't have the limit here in Manitoba, so we get a lot of these from things, but we don't get which is our website as far as I know.
So that gives you a sense of wording range.

Droege, Sam 14:21
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 14:26
And umm yeah, the other thing I'm gonna show.
Umm something on my other computer.
So they looked very similar and you know, one could be forgiven to think that the same.
The shipment.
Let's try to show share.
That.
So when I was doing my dissertation and I barcoded a lot of specimens trying to figure out what was going on here, they can figure which computer.
But there's a fairly definitive split, so here's some parasitic species up here.
And then there's lots of Hitchens eye.
Lots of Hitchens eye in a kind of a cluster and a very similar to that cluster.
They're very closely related is Weems up lots of Weems outlets.
So they're they're kind of two distinct clusters.
Umm, but if you see where can I find 1 right here?
That's 11 relevancy.
And Levy, antsy as the same kind of overall body shape, same clypeus.
But it has a a distinctly open fan.
OK, I have one here.

Droege, Sam 15:54
What's that range like?

Jason Gibbs 15:58
I think.

Droege, Sam 15:59
Have new what side?
What's the range of that like 3 range for leniency?

Jason Gibbs 16:08
Let me answer you is much more southern it seems.

Droege, Sam 16:11
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 16:13
Uh.

Droege, Sam 16:15
When I'm looking at, I'm seeing specimens.

Jason Gibbs 16:15
Stop.

Droege, Sam 16:17
It's, you know, the lower half of the the states of Mississippi, Alabama and into Florida, Georgia, on coastal plain kinds of areas.

Jason Gibbs 16:30
Yeah.
So I I you know, we have what I think is is that well I can tell you exactly where I have from, but yeah, and Mississippi, South Carolina.
That's basically it into Texas.

Droege, Sam 16:43
Uh-huh.

Jason Gibbs 16:45
Umm.
Dually, so again, that's not very good.
Uh, but this is not the best view here, but.
And you can kind of see it's a next step once that settles.

Droege, Sam 17:01
We're not.
We're not seeing it.

Jason Gibbs 17:04
Ohh I have to share.
See why I was worrying about OK.
But it yeah, it's a little out of focus made with it is an open fan, but I'm frustratingly it seems that.

Droege, Sam 17:20
Still not.
Still not seen?
You don't see your face.

Jason Gibbs 17:24
OK.
Ah, OK, I'm gonna try again.

Droege, Sam 17:27
And we should see elevation seeing if that was you got on deck area, there we go.

Jason Gibbs 17:30
Yeah.
OK, now I see it.
So yeah.

Droege, Sam 17:32
OK, got it.
We're good.

Jason Gibbs 17:33
OK. Umm.
Yeah, it has an open fan.
Umm, so right here.
If you can't see it, well, there's no hairs.
The only other, the only thing that really distinguishes it from a when's eye, as far as I can tell really, is that tends to have more yellow legs, tends to be paler.

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Jason Gibbs 17:53
You know the tegular like a very yellow.
Umm, it was kind of frustrating.

Droege, Sam 17:59
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 18:00
If you're in an area where they boiled accur because you know a lot of it's not unexpected in the South for bees to get a little more reddish.
Yeah.
In a lot of cases, and so you don't always have to barcode them all.
Yeah, it's trying to figure out which one you got.
I I mean it's one of those things where if it's got kind of yellow, a lot of yellow kind of on the tarsi leading on the tibia, it's gonna open fan kind of pale yellow tag you up.

Droege, Sam 18:26
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 18:37
I'll say it's a love agency.
If I'm in like the Georgia, South Carolina, Florida area, and if it's darker, I'll say this inside.

Droege, Sam 18:48
Yeah, I would say the same thing.
And what but different from, say, some of the other southern species that have really bright or strongly yellow legs is it tends to be right at the, I would call it the joints.
So at the tip of the tibia and where it joins the femur and the end of the femur.
And then the tarsal segments too, and it's really a little, it's a little subtle.
So it's on the orange orangish end of the spectrum.
So it's like a dark orange.
Not really.
I would say not really yellow, you know, or yellow orange at most.

Jason Gibbs 19:26
Yeah, that's good.
It's up.
See if I can actually get ones in view here.
My focus, your camera is not showing anything.
That's good.

Droege, Sam 19:52
Are you using two screens?

Jason Gibbs 19:55
No, it's just gone grades your way.
Try the 2nd.
Music here. Music.
OK.
OK, we got some action.
Right, yeah.
Yeah, 9.2.
Yeah, I'm going to share my screen or try to.
It this should be 1111, Yancy love and the lighting is probably a little bit harsh.

Droege, Sam 20:42
There we go. Yep.

Jason Gibbs 20:54
It's overexposed, but there's a lot of.
Yeah, the tarsi very orangey, orangy.
And the kind of extending onto the knees kind of apex primarily.
Yeah, which lights is causing the problems?
What's good for a second?

Droege, Sam 21:17
And you can see up by the up by the joint, by the femur.
That's one that I often look for, cause it's it's it's an odd pattern compared to light colored or orange colored markings on other specimens, but it's not.
You know, we're not talking fluorescent orange.

Jason Gibbs 21:39
Alright, my light just kicked me specifically.
OK, having technical difficulties everywhere I apologize.

Droege, Sam 21:49
Say.

Jason Gibbs 21:53
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 21:55
And there we go.

Jason Gibbs 21:59
We all let me take it a little bit.
So I get better like Sonic.
That's and.
Umm.
I don't know why it's so.
You had some way of getting the light better, but.
We've.

Droege, Sam 22:40
Umm, that's pretty good.
I think that's OK.

Jason Gibbs 22:43
Yeah, I'm sorry, itself exposed, but the.
Alright.
Yeah, that's basically the character you're looking for.
And.
That's all there is to it.
They're like, no, the one if you're, if you're down in, if you're in an area where living in see occurs, either one you have to watch out for is that looks superficially similar, is valid truancy.
Uh, but it does not technically have the squared off clipeus, and it's much it's got less.
Kind of.
The little shorter press here.
The tomentum on the metasoma, but it looks very similar.
It's actually more closely related to like the oblong.

Droege, Sam 23:27
Doesn't it have a orange?
Her or orange on the lakes.

Jason Gibbs 23:31
Yeah, they, yeah.

Droege, Sam 23:31
You think stronger, stronger coloration?
It's like, oh, that's a bit different.

Jason Gibbs 23:36
Listen and then actually like bar codes the same as a blog.
So you can't tell those in part of.

Droege, Sam 23:43
Yeah, interesting.

Jason Gibbs 23:45
And yeah, so unfortunately there's not.
I don't have any like magic.
I'll keep looking, but well, I haven't yet found something more like, oh, I just checked this and be definitively sure that you've got meantime.
But maybe now I'll be.
Encouraged that we look at all these specifications.

Droege, Sam 24:14
So so I think that that does that troika of tricky ones there, people may have questions you mentioned Para Admiral Landum which is a an it.
So it looks actually really different, like the vibe on it is so much different, but it's one that I think that falls between the cracks for a lot of people.

Jason Gibbs 24:31
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 24:36
From what I've seen, so I don't know if you have it, have that a specimen handy, but I could dig one now too.
But since we have time.

Jason Gibbs 24:44
Yeah, I'll go see if I can grab on you.

Droege, Sam 24:51
Where do we have questions?
You.
Yeah, good times and get your questions in.
We haven't really looked at the key specifically, so that might be a place for your questions.
Looking for I've got a group for Jason and Joel.
Next time though, which are the, the whole clade of Black Evaas.
I think there are no evaas always forget Jason, another one that I would love to have a a little review of, but I think is useful for other people too is the is it abilius now?
I always forget the the Burke, Manny and.
Foxy eye and.
Umm, uh, the what's the Macau Peninsula group?

Jason Gibbs 25:40
Yeah, those are now Hemi. Colitis.
Useful time being.

Droege, Sam 25:43
How have you like this?

Jason Gibbs 25:45
No, I haven't checked these ones in advance, so I'm assuming they're correct.

Droege, Sam 25:52
What species again?
I think parade Miranda got it.
Thank you.

Jason Gibbs 26:00
It's gonna fly to the find a nice clean specimen for you people.
Yeah.
One thing that a nice admin random things to have is is is it nicer?
Uh.
More abundant tomentum on the two of them.

Droege, Sam 26:21
Yep.
Yeah, it's almost solid on tea.
You know, part of T2, but three and four seems like and very white bright.
It's very bright colored.

Jason Gibbs 26:36
This is we're kind of talking about long.
Give him can see that so.
So the the kind on T2 you have these sort of.
You know what I call the basolateral?
Tomentum.
Umm, that's more kind of what like you'd see on T3 for kitchen design.
Those groups, they don't have that much hair, but maybe I'll show one later, but but this kind of this kind of solid kind of consistent right across and the segment is fairly typical for period, it's also a fairly kind of dull baby.
It's got, you know, it's got dull kind of microculture all over the place.
It's got those kind of impressed.

Droege, Sam 27:22
Yep.

Jason Gibbs 27:24
Markings on T1 and.

Droege, Sam 27:24
Uh, I.
This brings up something to Jason that you speak to and on your keys fairly regularly, and your descriptions, which is and I may be getting even your terminology wrong, but the fimbriata on the on T3 a lot of times, or sometimes T2 and I have struggled with that one an awful lot because am I just looking at hairs or am I actually looking at a distinct and band of, you know, morphologically separatable here is on the abdomen.
That would be at the on the rim and be called a.

Jason Gibbs 28:11
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 28:12
What?
What do you call it, Jason?

Jason Gibbs 28:14
Uh, I might have called it thin grey.

Droege, Sam 28:16
Right.
Cool. Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 28:17
I don't know if you're thinking about like an augment chlorosis.
You're gonna be getting, you know, have the wrong impression so.

Droege, Sam 28:23
Yeah.
Yeah, no.

Jason Gibbs 28:25
Alright, so let me see.
Yeah, trying get this as focused as I can.
So yeah, yeah.
So you have a.
You have some longer hairs that are kind of direct instead of like little oppress scale like hairs the to mention.
Umm, yeah.
See what I would call the fibre here on T2, like right at the apex of the apex, there are some pairs that you'll sometimes see kind of latterly and we kind of mixed in on T3 here, but that's kind of what I'm looking at when I'm talking about that kind of apical fimbriae, whatever it's called.
I'm so there there'll be some kind of like longer hairs that kind of mark, the April clone press margin.
So the be some hairs here and kind of see there is no longer.
And then and then, there's still oppress here.
There's no hairs here.
That's that's what I'm looking for.

Droege, Sam 29:24
OK.
Yeah, sometimes I just have a a real a difficult time defining that as a a band.
You know when you're dealing with things like melissodes and hallitus and those where you got very strong like that is a band.
And then in the dialect is group, it gets its vague in my boot until I largely ignore it.
When you say anything, I mean not anything.

Jason Gibbs 29:52
Yeah, yeah.

Droege, Sam 29:54
But where do you talk about those bands?

Jason Gibbs 29:55
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 29:56
Like am I. I can't.
I can't.
I feel like I I'm not.
I can't define that definitively.

Jason Gibbs 30:03
Right.
So now I guess what you know, I'm kind of thinking of like if you look here on T2, there are these little hairs that kind of just overlap the margin and you sooner you can see them here.
My mouth is, and then they're absent immediately. Right?

Droege, Sam 30:20
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 30:21
And so, you know, there will be some species where even if you look laterally, you don't want to see them two.
So that's kind of whenever that character, whenever that character comes up, that's you.

Droege, Sam 30:31
OK.

Jason Gibbs 30:35
But and if if if I if I have to get to that, they're probably hard to work in for.

Droege, Sam 30:44
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 30:45
Better.

Droege, Sam 30:45
Yeah. OK.

Jason Gibbs 30:47
I don't know if that's gonna show up or if I can find the character at the leg is gonna be in wet.
Uh, I'm gonna try, but pair at Miranda also has a generally has a kind of an unusual he's at the stern sculpturing, but I'm not sure I'll be this show to you.
Is the lighting has to be just so.

Droege, Sam 31:11
Yeah.
The main thing I look at is that you know, very hairy on the rear part of the abdomen and T1 very tessellate very.
It's hard to see in the in these screenshots, but really you know strongly inscribed with those microscopic lines.
Unlike you know, the things we've just were looking at or add, Miranda, which those are almost all mirror like.

Jason Gibbs 31:39
Yeah.
You're not gonna really be able to tell, but like, usually if you look at a pair and random it's it's just kind of it's dull on these episternal and you'll see these little shallow punctures that are visible.
But you have to have you have nice diffuse light and you have to be illuminating the area.

Droege, Sam 31:57
Mm-hmm.

Jason Gibbs 31:58
Umm if if you looked at like a a Hitchens eye or something like that, it would be a little bit more irregular.
Have a little bit of an idiot, like a regular kind of regate kind of mixed up.
We wouldn't see this.
It's it's not.
It's not quite to the point where you would say, oh, that's punctate because it was all this microscope that kind of makes the punctures less obvious, but they're there.

Droege, Sam 32:17
That's great.
I think I've Gotham as having that too.

Jason Gibbs 32:25
That's kind of easy.
Yeah, it's a little it's, it's, it's a different.
It's maybe contains a little shinier, but yeah, you know params this dull little kind of vaguely kind of whitish, golden haired.
Be very nice.
So one thing that kind of confused me early on was that right, it might have still casts.
No.
So there's I there was some material from like the summer that was like, you know, very small compared to the some of the other specimens to the point that I thought maybe there was a different species that we're calling.

Droege, Sam 32:52
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 33:05
I was calling.
You were at care and ran for a while, but then we thought barcoded them in there at the same.

Droege, Sam 33:08
Uh-huh.

Jason Gibbs 33:10
So you might get some pretty sharp contrast size, but they look the same.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 33:21
Yeah. Thanks.

Jason Gibbs 33:24
And I, yeah, I don't know about.
You know, I tend to see, I tend to think of all of these as kind of open area kind of species, not your force associated.

Droege, Sam 33:33
Yeah, yeah, agreed.

Jason Gibbs 33:39
But Flapper is possible.
You get a lot of holes, right? But.

Droege, Sam 33:48
And we have a question in the chat by Sean Umm for the unique characteristics that are circled in green.

Jason Gibbs 33:51
Yes, here.

Droege, Sam 34:00
Which are on the Libyans I identification summary which says small southern coastal plane and distribution, hind tarsi and bathe tarsi lemon yellow, large brown front middle hitting quite fine on sputum.
Very few appressed hairs on abdomen. Umm.
Wondering if this should be updated to include?
Swear it off.
Flip Yas.
Going back to updating and then asked earlier, updating the Wikipedia and I naturalist pages, would it be acceptable to add these summaries to species pages for folks reading about those no on on these other external moments?

Jason Gibbs 34:44
Umm, I'm not sure I caught all of that.

Droege, Sam 34:46
Two questions.

Jason Gibbs 34:48
Where was the source of where is the information that you were finding all these things from?
Sorry that summary of the exact one is that from the key.

Droege, Sam 34:55
Uh, Sean. Donna.
Is that on Jason's?
Jason's key diagnosis, or was that a discover life for a CHEAT SHEET thing?
Thing now the picture from discover like so, I think that's more of a question for us.
But confirming if we should do that because I think those identification summaries might be grabbed from, like the last sentence of a species description or something like that.
It's all over the place, depending on what feature, but Sean is on here to ask the question, so let's just let him do that.

Shaun McCoshum 35:28
Yes.
So it's when we're going through the presentations of each species there sometimes very key characteristics that are highlighted to pull out that species from other ones.
And it looks like on the Discover Life page there is a like a summary of those unique characteristics and I just want to make sure I was understanding that squared off puppies as part of the levy ances.

Droege, Sam 35:54
Yeah.
So I'll talk about the discover life and which is basically that's something that we wrote to that we thought were was helpful when defining the species and and most of those are are pretty old now.
So yes, I think we can interject into that.
The squared off clipeus and I and I don't know if that's just a character of the species, or is that explicitly in your key Jason the squared off clip user is just happened so happened like Illinois and she has a squared off one, but you don't need it for the key, so it's not really mentioned.

Jason Gibbs 36:32
Yeah, I mean that's how you would separate these in the keys based on the clippies.

Droege, Sam 36:38
OK.

Jason Gibbs 36:38
Uh, I'm not sure off the top of my head what's probably the hair fan first will get kitchens eye on its own.
Uh, and then?
Yeah, relevancy and but then it would you know, so that character for this squared off collect is probably peers twice depending on which direction you go on the hairpin.
You're trying to just for the sake of completeness, what a pair admiration.
Faison, but it's not working out for me very well.
This one got its mouth part still open, so it's harder to see.
Umm.
The characters of interests.
This is a paradigm random face.
And the the apex kind of Anna comes down along this kind of angled margin.
You don't get this impression of a squared off.
It's hard to see on the specimen like to see.
Yeah.
What I'm kind of looking for is, you know, yes, you know, angle kind of coming down from the the margin base of the mandible kind of.
Verging and then it's kind of running into the end of the clip.
It's and then it's kind of stops.
It kinda goes possibly 7 sends back the other way.

Droege, Sam 38:15
Right.
And no, no sort of obvious truth.
Like denticular, like things on the rim defining the corners.

Jason Gibbs 38:26
Yet so yeah, so doesn't it?
The rim is like right here, so it's maybe it's not complete, it may not be completely smooth like it might kind of come out and then be projecting a little bit, but it's not this.
Swear it off and this is basically what you know most dialect.
This kind of looked like I don't know how to get really busy.
We're better than this.

Droege, Sam 38:58
Address the second half of the question about Wikipedia and inat.
Sean, do you wanna speak to what you're trying to do there or do you have a student group doing that?

Shaun McCoshum 39:08
Yes, I'm working with a group of naturalists out here in Texas and they're trying to learn the bees that are out here.
So when we're coming up across species that are really easily identifiable, like in thought for California, we simply just have on there like you looking for a typical anthophora with, you know, white bands on this.
You tell them that are colored instead of the white hairs versus Urbana.
So we're we're creating this like internal list, but if discover lives descriptions already have these kind of shortcuts when you're like unique characteristics, you have to discover life is OK with us adding those to the inaturalist Wikipedia page because those are the two that are connected.
And I can try and do that, but if you wanna keep it only on discover life, then we can just say see the Discover life page for more.

Droege, Sam 39:53
Yeah.
Well, I'm from the, you know what I would say is from the Discover life point of view, use away.
But it's a buyer beware kind of thing.
So what would be probably a good inner so you could put it up initially, but you might also take those.
Umm I ID shortcuts or those that identification notes that are often on there and acid.
You could pass it by me, but like lazy blossoms you could pass by Jason and he'd be like oh, you need to add the squared off clip.
Yes, or something to make it more complete.
I think those shortcuts are really valuable, particularly for someone who is following more in line with a picture book kind of approach.
You know, like I'm not going to.
I don't have a microscope or I'm just starting and I have a microscope, but I'm scared by keys and, you know, being like this, but having that is actually, I think really, really nice to have.
And adding it in to I naturalist I think would be a plus, but I think having a you know also then having them sit sending them out as you compile them to people like myself and other people for review I think would be useful just because we keep adding things to that and some of these may be out of date.

Shaun McCoshum 41:15
Yep.

Droege, Sam 41:15
I was wondering, Sam, so most you know as a well part of the welcome packet you.

Jason Gibbs 41:16
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 41:21
I've sent out your Lisu glass.
Some CHEAT SHEET.
Uh, so that, I mean, I know that you are very happy to share all of your words, so maybe that's a place to I will give people all my money.
Ohh sorry I'm oversharing.
Maybe that's a place to also.
I mean, it's mostly Eastern focus, but that might be a place to fish for.

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Droege, Sam 41:42
Yeah.
Yeah, that's another spot.
Long time ago, Jason looked at at that.
But I don't know if you even remember that.
But yeah, so I think reviews are so all this is probably good, but sending it out for more reviews is gonna be useful to everybody, cause we like right now I'm updating the umm the character for Levante Online.

Jason Gibbs 41:52
Probably not.
It's the.
Yeah.

Droege, Sam 42:12
As per your guys work.

Jason Gibbs 42:13
Yeah.
And I just, I just opened up the the Discover life page for kitchens.
I yeah.
There, there's sort of two things there.
So there's like, I assume Sam is written.
Umm.

Droege, Sam 42:24
Umm.

Jason Gibbs 42:26
At the very top.
And then there's, like the diagnosis from the the publish papers, which are also on those pages, which I think have just been taken verbatim from paper on with a citation.

Droege, Sam 42:35
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Gibbs 42:38
So that would be my only.
Like if you wanna use any of the information that's below the, the thing that says retrieve from Gibbs J, right?
The copyright for that belongs to Magnolia Press.

Shaun McCoshum 42:49
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 42:50
And so I think you just wanna if you use that you know site in, yeah.

Droege, Sam 42:54
Yeah, the way to think about it is, I was gonna.

Shaun McCoshum 42:54
Yeah, with, I just wanted to make sure, I'm sorry.

Jason Gibbs 42:58
That and anything you do with that and you know anything you do in terms of like copying information from my papers got nothing to do with me.
So.
So yeah, so I would just say.

Droege, Sam 43:09
Yeah, you can.
You can cite them as basically as a a quote in lots of ways.
You're not.
You're not taking the whole paper and republishing and putting your name on it, but when you grab someone else's information, I think again, when you're talking about just small sections, then it becomes a quote in sort of the good, Good Housekeeping seal of approval is just to say, hey, we grab this from here and you're probably gonna be fine all the time on that.

Shaun McCoshum 43:40
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 43:40
Yeah.
And as far as I know, Magnolia press is not like it's not a big major publisher that's look at the Sue anybody.

Droege, Sam 43:47
You're out there.
Look at.
Oh my God.
You stole?
Stole our quote.
Now you know suing you for $1,000,000 from that.

Jason Gibbs 43:57
Yeah.

Shaun McCoshum 43:57
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 43:57
So you're probably safe, but I don't know.

Shaun McCoshum 44:02
As well.
Thanks guys.
As as we're working through those things all I'll try and update those pages.

Droege, Sam 44:08
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 44:08
What I mean, I think one of those things and I'm sure like for Wikipedia and stuff like that, great for like for I naturalist, I mean I think you know it's the odds dive identifying one of these on an Astros is like.

Droege, Sam 44:09
And I I really encourage that.

Jason Gibbs 44:23
You're fit.
Very hard.
Yeah.
There, that's a really great photography and all the right angles to be super positive.
That was right then.

Shaun McCoshum 44:32
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 44:34
There is a.

Droege, Sam 44:34
Yeah, the whole, umm, go ahead.

Jason Gibbs 44:36
Yeah, I was just going to say that there is, you just have to the clypeus character is gonna be also really useful because you know other than.
For kitchens eye, it looks very much like beer down and group because it's got a really nice fan.
All the view data group things have open fans.
Essentially umm, but there are few kind of uncommon species in the verdatum group like Catherine Nier.
She has a closed fan, but it doesn't have that clip.
Of scared person.
That's a good one to learn.
Are you comfortable with?
Is the hair fail alone something? See.

Shaun McCoshum 45:17
Yeah.
Yeah, I bet in my notes to make sure when people are taking photos to to add that and the front tibial area to with the ones we talked about last last class.

Jason Gibbs 45:30
Yeah.

Shaun McCoshum 45:33
I think you think, guys, I gotta run to a different meeting but appreciate it.

Droege, Sam 45:34
Yeah.
OK.

Jason Gibbs 45:38
Well, thanks for joining.

Droege, Sam 45:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I Sam?
I asked if you periodically update your CHEAT SHEET because you know we were mostly circulating one from probably 2019 ish.

Shaun McCoshum left the meeting

Droege, Sam 45:53
I know I on my own personal notes to that, but wondering if you had.

Ann Fraser left the meeting

Droege, Sam 45:59
I haven't.
I haven't updated that in years, so the answer is no.
But you know, it's another thing we could send it out.
You could send it out to the B monitoring list and to Jason and Joel of course, but what I found is on these ID things.
Yeah, people don't really.
They don't get into keys and ID's and like minutia very much.
There's not many people who respond, but I think it would be nice if we had more people who were drilling into that, but I don't know.
It's just just how how it is.
There's few people who just like writing keys and reviewing keys.
Had a little what you find, Jason, but that's sort of my impression, hard to get people to look at closely at a a bunch of characters.

Jason Gibbs 46:50
I was once reviewing a taxonomic paper and I set back some feedback about.
I don't think this couple of works well and the editor was so shocked that I ran things through the key.
So yeah. Yeah.

Droege, Sam 47:03
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I I remember.

Jason Gibbs 47:06
So yeah, unfortunately, my own kids weren't tested that well, so.

Droege, Sam 47:10
Yeah.
I I I look mikes on the line, but Mike, arduous are you know he's been putting together some really nice keys for the tall grass Prairie area and he he would send them out to people and I'd be like oh this is cool and I would send them back home and send and after doing that for a while he said you know Sam you're the only person whoever comments on them so and he he sending them out to the experts so that never never made me very sanguine about people really getting feedback but yes we do want it so if anyone has any complaints or finds it difficult or wording let us know we are we're into it.

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Jason Gibbs 47:53
Yeah.
So yeah, definitely for the the you know, for the zoo tax papers, I usually have, you know, tracked kind of versions of those where, you know there's name changes.

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Jason Gibbs 48:08
Errors.
I kind of just tried to put those on so, so if I'm sharing that paper, I have a version that's better than the published one.

Droege, Sam 48:13
Yeah.

Jason Gibbs 48:17
And yeah, I've mentioned this before, I think that these things, but like there is, we do have this pro tangina Terra Saurus thesis as publicly available on very happy to have feedback on the keys for that because that's that's not published yet efficiently.

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Jason Gibbs 48:33
So just don't use the news.

Droege, Sam 48:34
Yeah, I've got a.
A little.
I've got a slug of them to from Tennessee to trial out, so we'll see how it works.

Jason Gibbs 48:50
Any other questions?

Droege, Sam 48:52
Hey, but we have to.
Have any more questions about this group or RECO request?
For what group you wanna work on?
Next week, Sam said something about when you say the Heliconius.
Yeah.
Every cool that they would, we're good with doing your request.
And you can always email me.
Well, thank you so much, Jason and Joel.
This is a great contribution.
Everything as you know, is online, so people can come back and revisit these kinds of things.
And uh.
Thank you Claire, for making it happen.

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Droege, Sam 49:37
Fantastic.
And as we're asking for people's support, we have transcripts that are mediocre at best.
So if there are people who want as they're running through keys and stuff, wanna help with those?
Knows exist.
Thanks.
Bye.
Yeah.
Alright, see you next week, y'all.

Wolf, Amy left the meeting

Droege, Sam 49:59
Thank you so much Jason. Thanks.

Jason Gibbs 50:01
Yeah, no problem.
Bye everyone.

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Droege, Sam 50:04
Bye bye.

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Jason Gibbs 50:08
Don't.

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Maffei, Clare J stopped transcription